tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-64228572024-03-13T22:24:18.418-04:00Biblical Evidence for CatholicismChristian, biblical apologetics, theology, history, exegesis, and Bible discussion, led by Catholic author Dave ArmstrongDave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comBlogger1472125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-39127974771882964272015-08-10T16:40:00.002-04:002015-08-10T16:43:41.854-04:00This Blog and its Existing 1500 or So Posts Will Soon be Moving to Patheos<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
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Not sure how all that works, but I have re-edited all my old papers, preparing them for the move, with a book ad to my e-booksite on each one. It may be by the end of today (8-10-15). There will be forwarding links (I dunno how many).<br />
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I'll have to reorganize everything once the "exportation" occurs. It'll be a painstaking process of several weeks. The header above, that was professionally designed for my blog some years ago, will be retained. Over there they have the cool drop-down menus that I have never had, so navigating my many "topical web pages" should be at least as easy, if not easier, than it has ever been.<br />
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Here is <a href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/">my blog page</a> at Patheos.<br />
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And here is my <a href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2015/07/hello-world.html">introductory post</a>. <br />
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Readers can<i> subscribe</i> to Patheos itself and to <i>my own posts</i> (see the sidebar). That seems to have never worked properly here.<br />
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I get paid per so many page views, so if you are reading my stuff (especially multiple posts in one reading), you are helping me earn income. Very exciting, as I've never had that opportunity before . . .<br />
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I'll be cranking out more articles than ever under this new system. Please come read, and you can always follow the ad on each page to my e-booksite for some rock-bottom prices for ePubs and mobis ($2.99) and $1.99 for PDFs!<br />
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***Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.com14tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-32783454505982429072015-08-08T19:10:00.002-04:002015-08-08T19:10:49.486-04:00New (?) Analogical Argument for Veneration of the Saints and Angels from the Prohibition of Blasphemy of the Same<div style="text-align: center;">
By Dave Armstrong (8-8-15)</div>
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The Bible looks negatively on what it describes as "blasphemy" -- not just against God, but against holy persons or those set apart for His purposes (Moses: Acts 6:11; St. Paul: Acts 13:45; 18:6; saints in heaven: Rev 13:6; Christians in general: 1 Pet 4:4), and against angels (2 Pet 2:10; Jude 8; Rev 13:6). The same words for blasphemy are used for men, angels, and God.<br />
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This is because these men and angels serve as His messengers (2 Cor 8:23), direct representatives (Matt 10:40; Lk 10:16; Jn 13:20), ambassadors (2 Cor 5:20; Eph 6:20; Phlm 1:9), or witnesses (Jn 15:27; 19:35; 21:24; Acts 1:8; 2:32; 3:15; 10:39-41; 23:11; 1 Pet 5:1; Rev 1:2; 6:9). Indeed, Christians are even described as "fellow workers" with Him (1 Cor 3:9; 2 Cor 6:1; Phil 2:12-13). The Church is equated with Jesus Himself (both being persecuted in the same actions: Acts 26:11, 14-15), and there is also an identification of the Church "Body of Christ" with Christ Himself (1 Cor 12:27; Eph 1:22-23; 5:30; Col 1:24).<br />
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The aspect of divinization, or<a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2004/07/theosis-and-gods-exalted-role-for.html"> <i>theosis</i></a>, is a biblical motif of very close identification and union with God:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<b>Acts 17:28 </b>(RSV)<b> </b>for '<b style="color: blue;">In him we live and move and have our being</b>': . . . </blockquote>
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<b>2 Corinthians 3:18 </b>And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being <b style="color: blue;">changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another</b>; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. (2 Corinthians 3:18)<br />
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<b>Ephesians 3:19 </b>. . . to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be <b><span style="color: blue;">filled with all the fulness of God</span></b>.<br />
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<b>Ephesians 4:13 . . . </b>mature manhood, to the <b style="color: blue;">measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ</b>.<br />
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<b>2 Peter 1:3-4</b> His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, [4] by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and <b style="color: blue;">become partakers of the divine nature</b>. </blockquote>
In other words, the key is <i>affinity</i> with, or closeness; <i>proximity to God</i>. Just as God can be blasphemed, in a lesser but still very real sense, so can His ambassadors and witnesses. There is the primary Being: God, and the secondary ones: His vessels. They reflect and represent God; therefore, as such, people can scorn and reject and blaspheme them just as they do God.<br />
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It seems to straightforwardly follow, then, by analogy, that if a<i> </i>rejection or blasphemy of <i>God</i> can be expressed via an essentially lesser but connected rejection or blasphemy of His <i>ambassadors</i> (the lesser vessel being in close affinity with the greater source), by the same token and principle and logic, conversely, the <i>worship</i> of God can be expressed via an essentially lesser but connected <i>veneration</i> of His ambassadors.<br />
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In this manner, the wider application of blasphemy in Scripture to creatures suggests by symmetrical analogy, a wider application of honoring: expressed in veneration of creatures, which is distinct (but not altogether disconnected) from the adoration that God alone is entitled to, as Creator. The creatures reflect the Creator like the painting reflects the painter, or moonlight, the sunlight that is the source of it.<br />
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Moreover, we see that the Bible refers blasphemy of men almost solely to the most eminent of God's followers (Paul, Moses, and perfected saints in heaven): and angels even higher in the scale of things. Thus, by analogy, the relatively greater veneration would be towards those who had attained a higher holiness and sanctity; hence in the Bible we see a differential "system" of blasphemy / veneration not unlike how the Catholic Church ranks lesser and greater saints, with the greater receiving more veneration.<br />
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Lastly, the biblical data about blasphemy of immaterial holy things (the gospel, Christian doctrine, the law, the Temple) leads to the opposite analogy of <i>reverence</i> of those same holy things and places ("The Holy Bible": as even Protestants call it; the Holy Land, icons, Church sanctuaries, statues representing saints, etc.). The essential and fundamental, presuppositional principles of all these things are clearly laid down in the Bible, if not explicitly in every jot and tittle.<br />
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***Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-37318676699918281572015-07-10T14:26:00.000-04:002015-08-10T01:07:21.724-04:00Books by Dave Armstrong: "Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical: From Priestly Celibacy to the Rosary: 80 Short Essays Explaining the Biblical Basis of Catholicism"<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
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<span style="color: blue; font-size: large;">TABLE OF CONTENTS </span></div>
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">[slightly different chapter titles in some cases, from the published book, which also doesn't contain the larger categories (in Roman numerals)]</span></div>
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<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">Dedication </span></div>
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<a href="https://www.blogger.com/null" name="__DdeLink__896_1698279339"></a><span style="font-weight: normal;">Introduction [see below]</span></div>
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<div align="CENTER" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>I.
Bible and Tradition (Authority)</b></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></div>
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<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">1.Tradition
is Not Always a Bad Word in Scripture +</span></div>
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<span style="font-weight: normal;">2.
The Catholic “Three-Legged Stool” vs. </span><i><span style="font-weight: normal;">Sola
Scriptura</span></i><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">3.
Tradition: Short Reflection & Basic
Explanation</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">4.
The Bereans & “Searching the Scriptures” </span></div>
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<span style="font-weight: normal;">5.
Ten Deuterocanonical References in the New Testament </span></div>
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<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>II. Doctrine of the
Church (Ecclesiology)</b></span></div>
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<span style="font-weight: normal;">6.
The Catholic Church: Why we Accept Her Claims</span></div>
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<span style="font-weight: normal;">7.
Catholic Ecclesiology & the Jerusalem Council [read <a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2012/05/dialogue-with-mennonite-on-christian.html">original longer dialogue</a>]</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">8.
Three Biblical Arguments for an Authoritative Church +</span></div>
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<span style="font-weight: normal;">9.
“Call No Man Father” & Calling Catholic Priests </span><i><span style="font-weight: normal;">Father *</span></i><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></div>
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<span style="font-weight: normal;">10.
We Believe </span><i><span style="font-weight: normal;">All </span></i><span style="font-weight: normal;">that
the Catholic Church Teaches</span></div>
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<span style="font-weight: normal;">11.
On the Scandal of the Outrageous Claim to be a Church </span></div>
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<span style="font-weight: normal;">12.
On Whether God Would Protect His Church from Error [read <a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2005/11/on-whether-god-could-would-or-should.html">original longer dialogue</a>]</span></div>
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<span style="font-weight: normal;">13.
Are Church Councils More Authoritative than Popes?</span></div>
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<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>III. Priestly
Celibacy</b></span></div>
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<span style="font-weight: normal;">14.
Short Exposition on Catholic Priestly Celibacy </span></div>
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<span style="font-weight: normal;">15.
The Celibate Priesthood as a Higher Calling</span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></span></div>
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<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">16.
A New (?) Argument for Mandatory Priestly Celibacy [read <a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2012/11/a-new-argument-in-favor-of-mandatory.html">original post </a>and <a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/824405364261117">Facebook discussion</a>]</span></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><b>IV.</b></span></span><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><b>Theology
of Salvation (Soteriology)</b></span></span></div>
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<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">17.
Works Can be Good or Bad, Just as Traditions Are </span></span></div>
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<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">18.
Faith & Works (But Not Justification) in Isaiah Ch. 1 </span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">19.
Catholic Soteriology in John 3:36 (“Disobey the Son”) </span></span></div>
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<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">20.
Hebrews 3:14 (Lots of Catholic Theology on Salvation) </span></span></div>
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<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">21.
Unanswered Prayers of Jesus as a Counter-Reply to Limited
Atonement </span></span></div>
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<span style="font-weight: normal;">22.
John 12:32 vs. John Calvin & Limited Atonement </span></div>
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<span style="font-weight: normal;">23.
God Doesn't Predestine the Damned (2 Thess 2:10-12) </span></div>
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<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>V. Purgatory and
</b></span><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><b>Penance</b></span></span></div>
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<span style="font-weight: normal;">24.
Prayer, Penance, & the Eternal Destiny of Others </span></div>
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<span style="font-weight: normal;">25.
</span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">The
Abundant Biblical Support for Lent *</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">26.
</span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Divine
Chastisement (or, Purgatory in </span></span><i><span style="font-weight: normal;">This</span></i><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
Life) *</span></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></div>
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<span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><b>VI.
The Holy Eucharist and the Sacrifice of the Mass </b></span></span>
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<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
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<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">27.
</span><span style="font-weight: normal;">Mystery is No Basis for
Rejecting Transubstantiation *</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">28.
On the Nature of Idolatry </span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">29.
“The Apostle Paul Says He is a 'Priest'?! Where?!” </span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
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<div align="CENTER" class="western">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>VII. Sacramentals,
Devotions, and Worship </b></span>
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<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">30.
Sacramentalism & the Bible +</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">31.
</span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Biblical
Support for Ritualistic & Formal Worship +</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">32.
</span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Is
the Rosary “Vain Repetition”? *</span></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></div>
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<span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><b>VIII.
The Communion of Saints and Angels</b></span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
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<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">33.
</span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Asking
Saints to Intercede is a Teaching of Jesus *</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">34.
Praying to Angels & Angelic Intercession *</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">35.
Worshiping God Through Images in Holy Scripture</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">36.
Martin Luther's Belief in the Invocation & Intercession of Mary &
the Saints, as Late as 1521 [<a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2011/10/martin-luthers-belief-in-invocation-and.html">read online</a>]</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">37.
The False Doctrine of “Soul Sleep”</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">38.
New (?) Biblical Argument for the Veneration of Saints: God “In”
& “Through” St. Paul</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div align="CENTER" class="western">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><b>IX.
The Blessed Virgin Mary (Mariology) </b></span></span>
</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">39.
Biblical Arguments for the Perpetual Virginity of Mary *</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">40.
Holy Ground & the Perpetual Virginity of Mary *</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">41.
Rationalist Objection to the </span><i><span style="font-weight: normal;">In
Partu</span></i><span style="font-weight: normal;"> Virginity of
Mary</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">42.
Martin Luther & the Immaculate Purification of Mary*</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">43.
Mary's Immaculate Conception & the Bible*</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">44.
Quick Biblical Proof that Mary is the Mother of God </span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">45.
The Bible & the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary *</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">46.
Mary the “Queen Mother” & “Queen of Heaven”</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">47.
Mary as the Woman in Revelation 12 [read <a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2011/08/dialogue-with-two-protestants-on-woman.html">longer original dialogue</a>]</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">48.
</span>Biblical Analogies for Marian Apparitions<span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div align="CENTER" class="western">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><b>X.
Papal Infallibility</b></span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">49.
Protestant Difficulties Regarding Papal Infallibility</span></span></div>
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<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">50.
The So-Called “Infallibility Regress” Objection [read <a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2008/10/dialogue-with-protestant-on.html">original longer dialogue</a>]</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div align="CENTER" class="western">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><b>XI.
Christology and Trinitarianism </b></span></span>
</div>
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<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">51.
</span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">The
Bible “Never Says that Jesus is God”? Wrong! +</span></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">52.
</span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">The
Holy Trinity Proven from Scripture +</span></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">53.
Is Trinitarianism Demonstrable from Scripture Alone? </span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">54.
Trinitarian Baptismal Formula & “Jesus Only” Baptism </span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">55.
Should God the Father be Visually Depicted in Paintings?</span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">56.
Satan's Tempting of Jesus as a Proof of His Divinity</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">57.
Jesus' Divinity & Matthew 21:16 (cf. Psalms 8:2) </span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">58.
Jesus is Explicitly, Directly Called “God” (Romans 9:5)</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">59.
Jesus' Agony in the Garden vs. “Be Not Anxious” [read <a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2011/03/jesus-agony-in-garden-of-gethsemane-vs.html">original longer article</a>]</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div align="CENTER" class="western">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>XII. Marriage and
Sexuality</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">60.
Annulment is Not Catholic Divorce </span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">61.
</span><span style="font-weight: normal;">Contraception: “Be
Fruitful and Multiply” *</span><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">62.
</span><span style="font-weight: normal;">Contraception: God Blesses
Parents with Children *</span><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">63.
Contraception: Onan's Sin & Punishment [<a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2014/03/biblical-arguments-against.html">read online</a>]</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">64.
Reply to an Attack Against NFP & Spacing of Children</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">65.
Contraception, Murder, & the Contralife Will</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">66.
Does the Bible Condemn Homosexual Acts?</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">67.
St. Paul's Argument from Nature Against Homosexual Acts (Romans
1) [read <a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/06/st-pauls-argument-from-nature-against.html">original longer </a></span></span><br />
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/06/st-pauls-argument-from-nature-against.html">version</a>]</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">68.
The Prohibition of Premarital Sex in the New Testament </span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">69.
Does 1 Corinthians 7:36-38 Sanction Premarital Sex? [read <a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2009/11/premarital-sex-does-st-paul-permit-and.html">original longer dialogue</a>]</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">70.
Thoughts on Women's Ordination </span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div align="CENTER" class="western">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><b>XIII.
Hell, the Devil, and Demons</b></span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">71.
</span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Philosophical
Defense of the Necessity of Hell [read original longer dialogue: <a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2008/12/philosophical-defense-of-plausibility.html">Parts One</a> and <a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2009/01/dialogue-on-hell-and-gods-justice-part.html">Two</a>]</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">72.
The Stupidity of the Devil </span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">73.
Demon Possession & Modern Bible Translation Bias </span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">74.
The “Conditional” Possibility of Universalism Refuted</span></span></div>
<div align="CENTER" class="western">
<br /></div>
<div align="CENTER" class="western">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><b>XIV.
Philosophy, History, and Apologetics</b></span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">75.
</span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Thoughts
on a Perfect God Creating an Imperfect World</span></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">76.
</span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Can
God be Blamed for the Nazi Holocaust?</span></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">77.
The Inevitability of Development of Doctrine *</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">78.
</span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">New
Testament Proofs of Noah's Historical Existence * [<a href="https://www.setonmagazine.com/latest-articles/new-testament-proofs-noahs-historical-existence">read online</a>]</span></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">79.
Jesus' Use of Socratic Method in His Teaching [read <a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/813019465399707">on my Facebook page</a>]</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">80.
Apologetics Isn't Saying You're Sorry for Your Faith! + [<a href="http://themichigancatholic.com/2014/05/apologetics-never-having-to-say-youre-sorry-for-your-faith/">read online</a>]</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: center;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">* * * * * </span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">* = originally published in <a href="http://www.setonmagazine.com/"><i>Seton Magazine</i></a>: The Premier Online Magazine for Catholic Homeschoolers (from March to July 2014). See my<a href="http://www.setonmagazine.com/authors/dave-armstrong"> author page </a>with links to all the articles.<br /><br />+ = originally published in <a href="http://www.themichigancatholic.org/"><i>The Michigan Catholic</i></a>: the official newspaper for the Archdiocese of Detroit (from May to August 2014). See my <a href="http://themichigancatholic.com/author/dave-armstrong/">author page</a></span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><a href="http://themichigancatholic.com/author/dave-armstrong/"> </a>with links to all the articles.</span></span></span></span></div>
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<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: blue;"><span style="font-size: large;">INTRODUCTION </span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: black;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span lang="en-US">This
is a collection of essays that are (1) short (usually two or three
pages), (2) characterized by lots of biblical argumentation, and (3)
written in defense of Catholicism (apologetics). Most of them came
about as a result of my ongoing efforts to comment on issues that
regularly come up in “worlds” of Catholic apologetics and
theology online.</span></span></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: black;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span lang="en-US">The
brevity of the chapters indicates the trend in my apologetic writing
for many years now: “quick,” precise answers to apologetics
questions. For better or ill, this is the world that we live in, and
the apologist must make efforts (as St. Paul did, and as Vatican II
stressed) to meet people where they are. </span></span></span></span>
</div>
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<span style="color: black;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span lang="en-US">I
don't deny the continuing utility and necessity of longer treatments
(my “corpus” still contains plenty of those!), but most people
prefer shorter essays, and their interest in theology and apologetics
generally doesn't extend to treatise-length expositions. This is all
the truer for beginners in theology.</span></span></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: black;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span lang="en-US">Many
of these essays were written as columns for </span></span></span></span><span style="color: black;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span lang="en-US"><i>Seton
Magazine</i></span></span></span></span><span style="color: black;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span lang="en-US">,
which is devoted to Catholic homeschoolers. Others came from my
regular column in </span></span></span></span><span style="color: black;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span lang="en-US"><i>The
Michigan Catholic</i></span></span></span></span><span style="color: black;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span lang="en-US">,
the official newspaper for the Archdiocese of Detroit. Some were
originally posted as part of my work in the Internet forum of the
Coming Home Network from 2007-2010 (I was the head moderator during
that period), and several were initiated on Facebook. All of these
essays are meant to answer the questions that people ask and to make
the Catholic Faith more understandable, leading to a confident belief
and the ability to “make a defense” (1 Pet. 3:15) for this Faith
as opportunities arise. I hope by God's grace I have accomplished
these goals.</span></span></span></span></div>
<br />
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<span style="color: black;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span lang="en-US">Thanks
so much for reading, and God bless you!</span></span></span></span></div>
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Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.com20tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-82131169344497387902015-07-10T12:00:00.000-04:002015-08-10T01:04:53.571-04:00Dialogue with an Atheist Concerning My Semi-Satirical Critique of Atheism<div style="text-align: center;">
By Dave Armstrong (7-10-15)</div>
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This came about as a result of an atheist responding to my paper, <a href="http://www.setonmagazine.com/latest-articles/why-atheists-are-far-more-religious-than-we-think#vx1KBVWcIo2rdOC2.99">Why Atheists Are Far More Religious Than we Think</a>. It occurred on a public Facebook page. His name will remain anonymous (unless he requests otherwise), but all the words are his, and will be in <span style="color: blue;">blue</span>.</div>
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* * * * * </div>
<br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;">It really is just kind of semantic. The atheist, at least the scientifically minded one, would not starkly claim that there is no possible way that a god created the universe. We are simply saying that there is no more reason to believe a god created it than to believe it was created by the tooth fairy or a dragon.</span><br />
<br />
Exactly my point in reverse. Thanks for verifying my reasoning. I was arguing that there is no more reason -- and that it requires <i>as much</i> faith [which might be defined very broadly as a belief in unproven axioms] -- to believe that atoms and cells can do the remarkable things they do by their own self-generated power (which came from . . . ?) than to believe that there is a spiritual entity called God that put it into them in creating them.<br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;">There is <i>some</i> reason to believe that there is a completely natural explanation as every single scientific inquiry that has ever been solved has been solve through a natural explanation, not a supernatural one, so <i>that </i>is where we are going to focus our efforts of explanation.</span><br />
<br />
There is plenty that is unexplained at the presuppositional level, as my post gets into. No one really knows by what conceivable process life came from non-life. There are several theories bandied about, of course, but by no means any definitive answers. So it requires "faith." You guys don't know why life is here or how the big Bang could start a process that led to it (by what laws and mechanisms?), and so you know no more than we do. You have to believe in faith that the processes that brought about these remarkable things were <i>completely</i> natural , whereas we agree that they are largely natural but that the missing ingredient that explains origins is indeed God. You have faith in the remarkable inherent qualities of atoms. We have faith in God. One is no more plausible than the other in this basic "brass tacks" sense. <br />
<br />
Many great philosophers and other thinkers have believed in God, based on various arguments, as well as internal experience or intuition, so the belief can't be dismissed with a wave of the hand as mere fairy tales or on the level of a belief in unicorns, etc.<br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;">Might we be wrong in the end? Um... sure I guess. But most atheists would then put it to the theist: why your God and not another religion? Why not a tooth fairy? Why not a dragon?</span><br />
<br />
And we say: "why <i>atoms</i>, that supposedly developed the power to create the entire universe by themselves?" Is that not an incredible blind faith? I would say that is more of a blind faith even than belief in tooth fairies or dragons as alleged possible agents of creation.<br />
<br />
Bottom line: Jesus Christ. He revealed that God exists and what He is like. As an apologist I can give a host of reasons why I believe in God, Christianity, and Catholicism in particular. It's like asking someone "why do you <i>love</i> your <i>wife</i>?" There are a host of reasons, and the usual immediate response is to hesitate, precisely because there are so <i>many</i>; you don't know where to start in describing your feelings of love.<br />
<br />
These are not questions (<i>whatever</i> one's view is) that are given to short, sound-byte answers. It just doesn't work that way. As I said, many great minds (arguably the vast majority of the best, most original ones) believed in God. Certainly atheists would have a hard time arguing that they were all gullible fools and anti-rational simpletons?. . . <br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;">There is no more reason for me to believe in that god than any of the hundreds upon hundreds of other gods that have made sense to their followers throughout time.</span><br />
<br />
There certainly<i> is</i>. Christianity is based on historical argument. We can point to concrete things in history that happened, that confirm the existence of God. That's already very different off the bat from the eastern religions. But most secularists / atheists / agnostics today are ignorant of the huge differences between religions, and tend to collapse them all into an irrational box.<br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;">So atheism being a religion is really just a word game. </span><br />
<br />
Not at all, as I carefully explained in the paper. To believe what you guys do about mere material atoms requires an extraordinary, quite childlike, non-rational faith.<br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;">Atheists believe that the origin of the universe most probably has a natural explanation simply because nothing... nothing else <i>ever</i> has had an explanation otherwise.</span><br />
<br />
Sheer nonsense. What you have in effect done is worship matter rather than spirit (that we worship). Why one rather than the other? It's completely arbitrary. You put all your faith in science, which is a variant of philosophy, that starts with unproven axioms just as every imaginable belief-system does. You have to believe that 1) the universe exists; 2) that matter follows discernible predictable laws (uniformitarianism); 3) that our senses can be trusted to accurately convey these laws and observations to us.<br />
<br />
This is why modern science began in a thoroughly Christian culture (Europe in the Middle Ages) and why the founders and developers of virtually all scientific sub-fields were Christians or at least some sort of theist: because Christianity offered these necessary presuppositions, to start doing science. Hence, the Lutheran Kepler's famous statement that the scientist was "thinking God's thoughts after Him."<br />
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If anyone can claim credit for historic, foundational science, it is <i>Christianity</i>, not atheism. I <a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2010/10/books-by-dave-armstrong-science-and.html">wrote a whole book</a> about it.<br />
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<span style="color: blue;">I have never met an atheist who didn't say that if you showed them <i>any </i>actual evidence to the contrary that they wouldn't change their mind. But no religion has yet done so. Not one. And that is the difference between atheism and a religion.</span><br />
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These are merely empty (and rather sweeping, dogmatic) claims. How do you know no religion has ever offered a rational answer to the sort of garden variety questions that atheists bring up? How much of religion have you studied? If you were once a Christian, what books of apologetics and philosophy of religion have you read? Have you read debates between Christian philosophers and atheists, etc.?<br />
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It's always easy to make sweeping, dramatic claims (such as you have done) without backing them up.<br />
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<i>My</i> argument is of a different nature. I'm not saying that atheists are dummies or immoral, <i>just because</i> they are atheists, but rather, that the faith they claim that Christians exercise and they supposedly don't, is a Grand Myth: that <i>they</i>,<i> too</i>, exercise faith, just as anyone does who believes in any worldview (including science, which is a form of philosophy called empiricism). It's impossible not to start with some unproven axioms, and they are, well, <i>unproven</i>. That means they weren't arrived at through observation or empirical evidence or even reason. They can't be absolutely proven.<br />
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So there is no reason for atheists to look down their noses at the supposedly "gullible" or "childish" Christians on this score. There is equally no reason to claim that Christianity is allegedly inexorably opposed to scientific inquiry. It's all atheist fairy tales and talking points, exhibiting a huge ignorance of the history of both science and philosophy.<br />
<span style="color: blue;"><br />Atheists (in my experience) are ready to change their mind for evidence.</span><br />
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And in my 34-year experience discussing things with atheists it is just the <i>opposite</i>: they are largely impervious to reason and fact<i> if they go against their views already held in faith</i>, without reason at the axiomatic level.<br />
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But there are atheists who have converted and become Christians by means of reason. I know several of them. I just haven't seen it happen in my own experience. I've had several atheists tell me, though, that my books were key in convincing them to become theists and eventually Catholics.<br />
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<span style="color: blue;">If one changes their mind without evidence, what is to stop them from drifting from one religion to another to another every time someone presents them with a new perspective? </span><br />
<span style="color: blue;"><br /></span>
I fully agree. Reason has to be exercised in any rational, plausible worldview, or it ain't worth much.<br />
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<span style="color: blue;">What each religion is asking the atheist to do, is to take <i>their</i> un-evidenced word for it, but not the next person's un-evidenced word for it.</span><br />
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That's what an unsophisticated Christian might do: "just accept our beliefs with a blind faith" -- but that is not the view of either the Bible or the Christians who devote themselves to rational defense of the faith (apologists like myself) or those who are philosophers of religion or theistic philosophers.<br />
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<span style="color: blue;">I literally have no reason to choose one religion over the next besides my own comfort with its message.</span><br />
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This clearly exhibits your non-acquaintance with the competing truth claims of various religions. Again, I ask you: what have you read of Christian apologetics? How much did you even understand the theology if you were once a Christian? Neither can a person cannot reject what they never understood, or fully understood, either. They are, instead, rejecting a caricature or straw man, which they proceed to pillory the rest of their lives if they are atheists. <br />
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I have shown this again and again in analyzing atheist "deconversion stories." Soon I will be compiling a book about that, too, and how so many atheists vainly fancy themselves as such experts on the Bible, whereas they are in fact profoundly ignorant and don't know the first thing about proper biblical hermeneutics or exegesis or the various literary genres in the Bible, etc., or the ancient Near Eastern (i.e., Mesopotamian) cultural background that is a crucial component of both Judaism and Christianity.<br />
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Moreover, I would point out that no message is more appealing (in one big sense) to human beings than atheism. You're accountable to no higher being. You can do whatever you want or desire to do, including the usual sexual desires and freedoms that people so often seek after. You can go the hedonist route and live merely for pleasure, or have fun deriding Christians and having a sense of self-importance and superiority in so doing (I've met many atheists of that sort; but many are not).<br />
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In other words, it's a wash. Human beings of whatever belief-system tend to follow what personally appeals to them. If you want to claim that this is the exclusive characteristic of Christians or all religious folk, it works the same way in criticizing atheism, so this "argument" proves nothing one way or the other. <br />
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The more honest atheists, such as Aldous Huxley, even freely admitted that they ditched religion precisely for the purpose of sexual freedom.<br />
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<span style="color: blue;">. . . which honestly Christianity's message in the end comforts me in no way.</span><br />
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Exactly! But atheism <i>does</i>, and makes you feel good, which is what you accuse Christians of doing. You do the same thing that you have just derided. You choose it because it <i>suits</i> you. We believe, on the other hand, that we choose Christianity, not because it makes us feel wonderful and warm fuzzy happy, but because it's <i>true</i>. <br />
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The great apologist G. K. Chesterton stated, "Christianity has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult and left untried."<br />
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It's a difficult life, but I wouldn't trade it and its joy and peace with anything. I've tried to seriously live the Christian life for now 38 years. It has never let me down. But it is not without suffering. Joy is deeper than suffering. This is why Christians have been willing to die as martyrs through the centuries. They weren't trying to avoid suffering, but rather, hell.<br />
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This is what you have just revealed to us is how you approached the matter: based on your desires and the comfort-factor, not based on an objective, dispassionate search for metaphysical and/or moral truth. At least that is how it appears or sounds at first glance. I'm just going by your own words . . .<br />
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<span style="color: blue;">As for the different faiths, theists (of the Abrahamic vein) are fully convinced that there are no gods at all... except for their one god. Why is it completely rational for Christians, Muslims, Jews to discount every other god that people follow except for this one, but the atheist who believes in just one fewer gods is absolutely wrong?</span><br />
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Yes; that is the nature of monotheism, because we believe that this one God has revealed Himself. We do for various reasons, that can't be briefly summarized, because there are so many of 'em.<br />
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It's not that you believe in "just one fewer god" but that in so doing you have to explain the universe according to pure naturalism or materialism, and it just doesn't make any sense and comes off sounding rather fantastic and irrational, when closely scrutinized, as I did in this paper.<br />
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You're welcome to explain to all of us how these atoms managed to do all that they have supposedly done, by themselves, with no outside or spiritual or supernatural aid, as a result of an explosion 15 billion years ago (or however long ago it is believed to be now).<br />
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We're waiting with baited breath. But no atheist has done so thus far, and I would bet good money that you will not be the first one. It's such a mystery that atheists are now fond of postulating "multiverses" so that they can simply ignore their huge problem of explaining origins, and push it back to earlier universes that they are equally ignorant of, as to process and origin. Very convenient, isn't it? If you can't explain something, invent a completely arbitrary fairy tale, with no rational or empirical evidence whatsoever to back it up . . .<br />
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And we Christians get accused of "God of the gaps" with this sort of desperate avoidance analysis going on among materialist scientists? It's a joke!<br />
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<span style="color: blue;">We are effectively living the same process with one minor tweak further. All religions have equal amounts of evidence (zero) so why one non-evident religion over the next? </span><br />
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You are merely assuming what you are trying to prove here, which is circular reasoning. You have not provided any actual reasons for believing these things. You simply make bald assertions. And I can tell you from my own long study in apologetics that they are not true statements. I <i>do</i> have the papers and books that already contain <i>my</i> reasonings.<br />
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<span style="color: blue;">There may very well be a god/goddess/gods/goddesses,</span><br />
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If you truly believe that, you should assume an agnostic stance, rather than an atheist one (but it sounds like you self-identify with the latter).<br />
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<span style="color: blue;">but since he/she/it/they have elected to give no evidence to the empirical senses with which they created us,</span><br />
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Once again, you assume what you think you prove. There is all kinds of empirical evidence for Christianity. Jesus was an actual human person, identifiable in history. He performed miracles, which were witnessed. He rose from the dead and was seen by more than 500 eyewitnesses. There is an empty tomb that hasn't been adequately expained. It was guarded by Roman soldiers, under the pain of death if they failed to guard it. We know that the tomb was empty, from hostile reports and theories that the body was stolen, etc. People were willing to die for this faith, etc. There is all sorts of hard evidence that has to be grappled with. <br />
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<span style="color: blue;">There is no way to know who it is without relying solely on personal subjective interpretation and heresay</span> [sic] <span style="color: blue;">from supposed eyewitnesses from centuries ago in books which no one has any reason to believe other than faith in certain groups of human being who have supposedly preserve the integrity of these first hand accounts hundreds of years ago.</span><br />
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This is incredible "reasoning." We rely on eyewitness and firsthand testimony for all historical accounts whatsoever. You don't doubt those when it comes to the existence of Socrates or Alexander the Great or even Abraham Lincoln. But all of a sudden when <i>religious faith</i> is involved, all these people were gullible idiots, who made up a bunch of fairy tales, and then were willing to <i>die </i>for the fairy tales.<br />
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It makes no sense at all. What this amounts to is a huge double standard, where you accept history, <i>except </i>when anyone religious is the testifier or witness of what happened at a particular point. <i>Then</i> you dismiss it. That's irrationally arbitrary, self-defeating, and bigoted.<br />
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The Bible has, time and again, been backed up, as to its extraordinary historical accuracy, whether through manuscripts (e.g., the Dead Sea Scrolls) or archaeology or textual analysis. It's accurate. It reports history. But someone who denies the existence of miracles beforehand simply dismisses any miraculous account.<br />
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That's not a strictly "rational" analysis. It's not rational to arbitrarily choose to disbelieve that a miraculous event can ever happen, and so dismiss any such account because it doesn't fit the arbitrary axiom already accepted for no good reason.<br />
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Many things in science would have been thought totally impossible or implausible before they were proven (e.g., quantum physics or black holes or relativity). Yet what was "impossible" because possible and even "proven" in the usual scientific fashion. <br />
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Why could not miracles be the same sort of thing? How can you or anyone else say in a blanket way that they could not ever possibly have happened? You cannot . . .<br />
<span style="color: blue;"><br />Unless someone has a "Damascus road" experience, personally, their faith isn't in god anyway, </span><br />
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At some point, experience must enter in, yes. We Christians claim to have various spiritual experiences that confirm our faith and beliefs. I have had several, myself. My life changed.<br />
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<span style="color: blue;">it's in people: the person who wrote the Scripture they believe, the person who they passed it onto; the person <i>they</i> passed it on to; the person who passed it on to you. </span><br />
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Every belief-system has an internal tradition and a heritage which has been passed on. There's nothing new under the sun. You as an atheist argue the same way that atheists did 3,000 years ago. And that is because you all start from the implausible axiom that I have discussed in my paper. Because you have so little reason to back yourself up, you have to content yourselves with bashing Christianity, to make yourselves feel so intellectually superior to us. It just won't fly.<br />
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It may with some construction worker in a bar or an old lady with purple tennis shoes, who don't know apologetics or philosophy from a hole in the ground, but not with someone who is acquainted with those things, and how the atheist / secular mind works. I used to think in largely the same terms, and I was spoon-fed secularism in school.<br />
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<span style="color: blue;">If people want to say atheism is a religion, I guess thats fine if one wants define what one means by religion.</span><br />
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My argument in my paper was that it was not a whit more reasonable, nor does it require any less faith (defined as acceptance of unproven and unprovable axioms). You have not really overcome my actual argument at all. You're just preaching . . . That's usually what atheists do. Not always (I've had some extremely interesting and constructive dialogues with several atheists), but usually. <br />
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<span style="color: blue;">Just note the the faith in atheism is in a logical system, that has heretofore been the<i> only</i> system that has ever offered a correct answer to the way anything works. </span><br />
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Where to begin? It's not logical at all, as I think I have shown: not at the presuppositional, axiomatic level. It's a profoundly faith-filled, arbitrary, implausible view. Secondly, atheism doesn't own science. Quite the contrary: it was begun by Christians and completely dominated by them for hundreds of years. Even now, some 40-45% of scientists would identify as some sort of theist (as well as a probably lesser, but significant number of philosophers: many among the best ones). Yet atheists routinely assume that they are the reasonable ones and own science. It's a lie.<br />
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What we Christians say is that science (or matter) is not <i>all </i>that there is. There are other forms of knowledge, and religious faith is real, and rational, and can be defended as such.<br />
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<span style="color: blue;">I don't consider logic my "god" because I don't believe in a god. </span><br />
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I can see that, because from where I sit, you are not arguing very logically at all. Your belief-system is arbitrary and meaningless irrationality (which I would argue is what all atheism always logically reduces to).<br />
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<span style="color: blue;">I believe it's a system through which we have found answers and has thus far been the only such system.</span><br />
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That's simply not true. Science (begun and dominated by Christians), philosophy, and religion have all given us plenty of answers and solutions.<br />
<span style="color: blue;"><br />Is that faith? Sure? I guess? Sort of? But in a very different way. Semantics.</span><br />
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I think there are lots of word games that atheists play. I have offered what I believe is a solid, logical critique.<br />
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Nothing personal! Thanks for the dialogue.<br />
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<span style="color: blue;">I don't have time to argue all of these points you've laid out. But I will get to the meat of it. If you have actual evidence, feel free to share.</span><br />
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I have evidence all over <a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/">m</a>y website. The most applicable to an atheist would be my web page on atheism. Then there is my book, <i>Christian Worldview vs. Postmodernism</i>. And my basic run-through of Christian apologetics, <i>Mere Christian Apologetics</i>.<br />
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If you don't want to purchase any of those, or my book on science, linked above (available as low as $1.99), I'll send you a PDF file of any of them for free.<br />
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<span style="color: blue;">And I repeat my original point. Yes... atheism is faith in the same way that your disbelief in the tooth fairy is faith. in the same way that your disbelief in the tooth fairy is a religion.</span><br />
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That makes no sense. I don't spend my time proving that the tooth fairy doesn't exist, as atheists do with God. My faith / religious belief isn't merely a <i>reactionary</i> denial of what is believed <i>not</i> to exist at all, but rather, a <i>positive, proactive</i> assertion of something.<br />
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The tooth fairy (like Santa Claus or unicorns or the man in the moon or the Easter Bunny and all the other silly atheist "analogies" to God) has no historical or philosophical evidence in favor of it, as God does. No great philosophers or scientists or other great thinkers hold to belief in it. It truly is a mere fairy tale fit for small children only. <br />
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To compare that to the Judaeo-Christian God, or even the "philosopher's God" (of say, someone like David Hume, who was <i>not</i> an atheist, as commonly believed) is instantly silly and a farce. But it's garden-variety atheism, and used all the time for its mocking "value."<br />
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Atheism is faith in precisely the way that I have argued that it is in my paper that you replied to: you (like anyone else who attempts to think seriously about reality) must accept unproven axioms. These cannot be argued for according to reason or evidence (empirical or otherwise). <br />
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The atheist has the special and extraordinary burden of being forced to believe that somehow something came from nothing, of its own power, and then exploded and produced all that is in the universe. <br />
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Present science tells us that the universe isn't eternal (laws of thermodynamics). It's running down. It began in an instant, in the Big Bang. That original "egg" somehow came from nothing whatsoever and came to possess the properties of reproduction, evolution, and creation of everything else.<br />
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For those of us who think that belief in God is a far better and more plausible explanation than <i>that</i>, it is (with all due respect) utterly absurd to accept such a ludicrous scenario. Any three-year-old knows that you can't get something from nothing.<br />
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But every atheist must believe exactly that. They do it based on sheer blind faith and unwillingness to accept the rational alternative that an eternal creative spirit exists; an eternal intelligence.<br />
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Even those who aren't theists know that <i>something</i> is out there; some kind of primal intelligence or organizing principle, to explain the wonders of the universe. Hence, Albert Einstein (a type of pantheist) wrote:<br />
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<blockquote class="tr_bq">
[T]he belief in the existence of basic all-embracing laws in Nature also rests on a sort of faith. All the same this faith has been largely justified so far by the success of scientific research. But, on the other hand, everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe -- a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble. In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort, which is indeed quite different from the religiosity of someone more naive.</blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
(To student Phyllis Right, who asked if scientists pray, January 24, 1936. Einstein Archive 42-601, 52-337; from Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffmann, <i>Albert Einstein, the Human Side</i> [Princeton Univ. Press, 1981], pp. 32-33) </blockquote>
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It's always fascinating to me to see how atheists attempt to respond to this particular argument, which I believe is of considerable force. Usually what we see is exactly the replies that my opponent gave above: little of substance: lots of bald assertions, contra-Christian or contra-theist "preaching" and studiously avoiding the central issue: <i>how did <b>something</b> come from <b>nothing</b></i> and <i>how did mere matter obtain all these remarkable <b>powers</b></i> that it now has?<br />
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It's pretty much a blank at that point and a clear example of completely blind faith in the unprovable, non-rational (arguably anti-rational) starting premises of atheism.<br />
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Atheists in effect worship trillions of atom-gods and cell-gods: exactly as I contended in my paper. Virtually every power that the Christian attributes to God, the atheist applies to atoms and cells. It's a profound faith indeed, based on no evidence whatsoever.<br />
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I think atheists are intelligent and thoughtful people. I am not claiming that they are generally <i>irrational</i> types of people. But I do say that with regard to the questions I bring up, <i>the starting premises of atheism are quite irrational</i> and unworthy of allegiance.<br />
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It's also good for atheists to recognize that we Christians have some serious thinkers among us, too, and that we have "good arguments" on our side as well.<br />
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<span style="color: blue;">Again, you are misrepresenting me. Atheists do not claim that there is absolutely no way a deity could have done it. We claim that there is no more reason to believe it than any other extraordinary claim. If you listen to any talk by prominent atheists like Dawkins or Tyson, you will hear them repeatedly say they cannot disprove god. The reason you will not hear us taking apart tooth fairy theories is because no one is making them or trying to get them into scientific discussions. And no one said science is unique to atheists. It is unique to scientist[s], which happen to be theists and atheists. The problem is when<i> either</i> group gets to something they don't understand and slaps creative answer to it rather than an observed one. In the theists' case: god did it. And your assessment of my scrutiny of historical documenta is erroneous. if you think religious texts are the only ones atheistic historians scrutinize, then you aren't accounting for the very first thing liberal universities teach when analyzing historical documents. The goal in any such analysis is to determine biases, limitations, and personal perspective rather than taking it at face value. Apologists however, have no other goal than to make the document/data/observations fit into a predesigned paradigm.</span><br />
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Thanks for your further thoughts. Now why don't you also provide some solid, plausible answers to the basic questions that are your burden as an atheist?:<br />
<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
1) How did something come from nothing?</blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
2) What caused this something from nothing, of its own power, to explode and produce all that is in the universe?<br />
<br />
3) How did the original "egg" come to possess the remarkable properties of reproduction, evolution, and creation of everything else?</blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
4) How did life (not to mention intelligence and rational self-consciousness) come from non-life, by purely materialistic processes, all inherent in the potentiality of the original "egg" that somehow came from nothing whatever?</blockquote>
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We say "God" and that gets immediately dismissed as supposedly "unscientific" and/or good ol' "God of the gaps."<br />
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Fine. Having dismissed our proposed explanation, what is your <i>alternate</i> (or <i>better</i>) one? You haven't told us. If you say you have no explanation or speculation at all, this strongly confirms my <i>entire contention</i>: you are operating in blind irrational faith: every bit as much as you say ours is, and arguably much more so.<br />
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After all, the universe is here (as all agree) and it had to be caused by something or Someone. Again, I reiterate my original argument, which stands unrefuted: we worship one Spirit-God, while you in effect worship trillions of atom-gods and cell-gods and the goddess Time: all of which can and do produce anything and everything in the universe (just like we say our God does!).<br />
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<span style="color: blue;">I don't need to provide solid claims as I am not making the assertions you are claiming I am making. I am not saying something came from nothing. I'm saying with the evidence currently in our grasp, it would appear that the big bang happened, and that there is absolutely no reason to assume jesus christ or yahweh... or odin was responsible for it. Your arguments necessitate you to constantly build straw men. Is it possible a god did it? Maybe idk. But why without evidence assume it was god? Why believe god can always exist but not matter? My answer AGAIN to you is I don't know. And thats where my atheist's "faith" comes in. Since every other answered query in the history of humankind has been answered by science and reason, I'm thinking that this too will probably be answered by science and reason. Since every "proof" you have given so far for god is completely inconclusive, and exemplary of the very kind of non-science that make atheists skeptical of christian science, that reinforces my leanings that the answers will be natural rather than supernatural. I think most likely, if these questions are ever answered, it will increase our understanding of what is natural, rather than convince me of something supernatural. But who knows? And your claim that atheists "worship" atoms/cells/time is the ultimate straw man.</span><br />
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Well, it's as good of a non-answer as I have ever gotten from an atheist. What else is new . . . ?<br />
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I haven't given any "proofs" for God in this discussion. And that is because I'm challenging <i>you</i> to establish a rational basis for the presuppositions of <i>your </i>belief (per my paper that you replied to), and the present existence of the universe. You have not done so. But at least you are honest enough with yourself to not try to make a futile effort which would not bode well for your worldview. it's best to refrain in that case.<br />
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As I have said repeatedly, the evidences, arguments, and reasons I can give for theism and Christianity are in my 49 books and 2,300+ papers on my blog. They can't be summarized quickly. That is mere child's play. Thoughtful worldviews must necessarily be scrutinized at length and with fairness and an open mind. I have offered to give you any of my books for free.<br />
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But you have to be willing to <i>read </i>them. "You can lead the horse to water, but you can't make him drink" . . .<br />
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<span style="color: blue;">I think I'm done here. You have absolutely no interest in what I'm saying, provable by the fact that you cannot even describe my position. You are clearly set in your intellectual superiority as you have demonstrated by your assertion of yourself as a "sophisticated christian" as opposed to the thousands of other christians who don't have the fluency with apologetics that you do. Your condescension and repeated misrepresentation of my arguments are going to be the bane of your apologetics, even before your confusion of reason with things that make sense to you.</span><br />
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One last thing, I just noticed:<br />
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<span style="color: blue;">"why believe god can always exist but not matter?"</span><br />
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The laws of thermodynamics tell us that the universe is running down; therefore very few believe anymore that it is eternal. It's not eternal; it began with the Big Bang, as far as present science can determine. If it were eternal, it couldn't have "begun."<br />
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Belief in an eternal God is distinct from that, since God is spirit and not subject to the laws of physical nature.<br />
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May God bless you with all good things. I bear you no ill will; nor do I judge your motivations, as you have now judged mine.</div>
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<span style="color: blue;">I bear you no ill will either. And you can claim non-judgement all you want. But when you say things like "any three year old knows..." Or calling my responses "non-answers" show your true feelings.</span><br />
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Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-91937058176492069012015-07-09T15:13:00.000-04:002015-08-10T01:02:48.176-04:00Why Have Legal Same-Sex Unions Come About in Our Day and Time?: Some Off-the-Cuff Ruminations <div style="text-align: center;">
By Dave Armstrong (7-9-15)<br />
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<b>PREAMBLE</b></div>
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I love the history of ideas. When something this momentous occurs it is useful, I think, to step back and take a look at what has transpired in recent history to bring about such a tragic breakdown of societal morals and traditions. These are my own speculations along those lines.<br />
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<b>1. THE CRUCIAL, FUNDAMENTAL CONTRACEPTION CONNECTION</b></div>
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The initial "intellectual opening" to the notion of a so-called "gay marriage" came about, I believe, in a two-step process, 30 years apart: the acceptance of contraception (in "hard cases" of course) for the first time among any Christian group, by the Anglicans in 1930, and the widespread introduction of the birth control pill around 1960. Thus, the current revolution in thinking has occurred over an 85- or 55-year period, depending on where one wishes to start in the causal chain. The longer period is within the lifetime of my parents; the shorter span, within my own lifetime. The sexual revolution might also be said to have started around 1960 (especially after 1967: the "summer of love"), as the large baby boomer generation came of age.<br />
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Now, how is this related to same-sex "marriage" and homosexual acts? It has to do with the fundamental purposes of things, and what is natural as opposed to unnatural. The primary, essential purpose of marriage is procreation: producing of children as the fruit of the sexual oneness of a married couple. That's not to deny the unitive / pleasurable function of marriage, but it is the most important purpose. Obviously, this can only occur between a man and a woman. Thus, in order to prepare a population for the notion that, somehow, two men or two women can "marry"; first it is necessary to break this immemorial and instinctive connection between sexuality / marriage and procreation.<br />
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Once this heretofore casually assumed link was questioned, then we had the related notion of sex merely for fun; for the relinquishing of desires and biological needs only, rather than for the purpose of having children; or, more specifically, being open to conception when and if it occurs.<br />
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<b>2. THE FRUITS OF CONTRACEPTION AND THE SEXUAL REVOLUTION</b></div>
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That was the first necessary break in the ongoing moral tradition of western civilization. It broke the intrinsic connection between [heterosexual] sexuality and procreation. Sex could now be utilized for pleasure purposes only (and without "consequence"); utterly disconnected from its deepest purpose. This leads, of course, to a breakdown in marriages, due to a much easier promiscuity and widespread premarital sex, which runs contrary to both procreation within marriage and the idea of being committed solely to one person, sexually and exclusively within [heterosexual] marriage. It was the triumph of the "playboy" lifestyle. <br />
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Women had at last given up the fight for traditional sexuality and surrendered to those who wished to reduce them to mere objects of pleasure. And so we have seen those fruits, in the alarming rise of illegitimate births and now cohabitation. Families are breaking down (usually meaning that fathers aren't present). This in turn leads to massive, debilitating poverty, crime, and hopelessness (those direct connections all being massively confirmed by secular social science). If you want to see the way that things are progressing, look at the inner cities. <i>That</i> is the fruit of secular liberalism and it's so-called "progressive" economic and sexual viewpoints and policies. That's our future. A wonderful sight and prospect, isn't it?<br />
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<b>3. GENOCIDE OF PREBORN CHILDREN: THE NEXT LOGICAL STEP</b></div>
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Legal childkilling [aka abortion] came along in the US in 1973: by judicial fiat, just as this ruling was. At that point, we could no longer in any way, shape, or form, be considered a "Christian" country, or guided (even vaguely) by Christian principles. Just as contraception had separated moral married sexuality from children, in an abstract (theoretical) way, so abortion literally separated the children from life and the womb and from their place in the scheme of things, by depriving preborn children of their very lives, solely based on the will of the mother. This was the decisive Step Two in separating both marriage and [heterosexual] sexuality from children.<br />
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<b>4. "DIABOLICAL LOGIC"</b></div>
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Once that was accomplished, then homosexual acts and homosexual "marriage" became far more thinkable. As we have seen, the entire process took 55 years (since the Pill) or 42 years (since Roe v. Wade). After all, if sex need not have any intrinsic connection to children, then, homosexual sex is just as supposedly "natural" or defensible as heterosexual sex. It simply took a while for society to get used to the inexorable "diabolical logic" involved.<br />
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<b>5. LEGAL LICENSE, LIBERTARIANISM, LIBERALISM, AND LIBERTINISM</b></div>
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Active homosexuality was so counter-intuitive (and so clearly condemned in the Bible), that it took a massive 40-year propaganda campaign to break down cultural resistance to it. Here is where a relentless, ferociously motivated secularism allied with libertarianism took over. The Big Stupid Idea of the sexual revolution was "do your own thing" or "do whatever feels good." In strictly legal terms, the notion that government could no longer say anything about sexuality or what goes on behind closed doors, came about with Griswold in 1965 (contraception), which was a direct legal precursor or precedent to Roe in 1973 (the so-called "right to privacy" nonsense).<br />
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Libertarianism, in its purest secular or popular form (a half-sister of the beloved liberalism), dictated that it was no one's business (last of all, the government's) to interfere with people's "personal lives." Thus, we see that not only in sexual matters but in things like physician-assisted suicide, euthanasia, and drug use. The related myth is that none of these things affect anyone else. This ties into active homosexuality. It's thought that it does no harm to anyone else, even though we know for a fact that homosexual sex (whatever one thinks of it, morally) has dire health consequences (that go far beyond the conquered AIDS virus).<br />
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<a href="http://biblicalcatholicism.com/"><img alt="http://biblicalcatholicism.com/" border="0" src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-D8SOhMkO_Wc/VcffWZ-3egI/AAAAAAAAJIM/ypyCkR_JBh0/s1600/Square%2BAd%2B%255B250%2Bx%2B250%255D.jpg" title="" /></a></div>
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<b>6. THE "BIG LIE," PROPAGANDA, AND BRAINWASHING</b></div>
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So how was same-sex "marriage" able to be pushed upon a society greatly opposed to it as recently as twenty, even five or ten years ago? This was accomplished by good ol' propaganda and re-education in the public schools, combined with an increasing cultural moral relativism. If you want to advocate something, then what you do is simply proclaim (not argue) it, over and over. It's the old thought of the Big Lie: if you<i> repeat </i>something often enough, people start to <i>believe</i> it, wholly separately from rational argument and fact and previous tradition. This is standard tactics of the Left. They understand this. They learned it from Hitler and his propaganda campaign against the Jews.<br />
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<b>7. THE "BAD TREATMENT" / SYMPATHY TACTIC</b></div>
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Specifically, how this is done is to appeal to cases where homosexuals have been treated abominably (particularly, sad murders). This is something that any kind-hearted person could agree with. But what happens is that admonitions to be kind and loving to all people become mixed-up with accepting <i>immoral acts</i> that the same people were involved in. This is our society today. No one can disagree with what anyone else does (in many areas, including this one) without being accused of being "hateful" and "intolerant." To disagree is to be a bigot and a hater: a bad, wicked person. That is the fruit of moral relativism and sexual libertinism.<br />
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<b>8. OUR FAILURE TO SEPARATE THE SIN FROM THE SINNER</b></div>
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This was really all it took: years of that: drumming into everyone's head that homosexual sex is not a whit different from heterosexual sex, and that homosexuals have been treated so badly. This was our failure, too: those of us traditionalists who did not exercise charity, and separate the sin from the sinner. The secular world, as always, took that ball and ran with it; milked it for all it was worth. It was the equivalent of the "back alley abortionists / coat hangers" card of the pro-aborts that was exaggerated a thousand times over: far more than the actual case numbers and facts would suggest. These tactics work.<br />
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<b>9. THE FASHIONABLE BOGUS GENETICS ARGUMENT AND THE IGNORED LEGITIMATE ENVIRONMENTAL ONE / AND REMEMBER THE BIBLE?</b></div>
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After years of that, sympathy developed for the "underdog." We also see the "argument" that homosexuality is "genetic" and therefore, cannot be resisted. The problem there is that there is no compelling scientific evidence for a genetic inevitability. Studies of separated twins have confirmed it. We also know that homosexual sex can be a learned or environmental thing (prisons being a prime example). There is a lot of evidence that disruption of proper relationship with one's father has a direct causal relationship to later active homosexuality. But we're not allowed to even bring up such things anymore.<br />
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The second problem is that the Bible casually assumes that the sin of homosexual sex can be resisted, since it is assumed that it is serious sin, and God doesn't forbid what is impossible for human beings to avoid. It would be like God condemning the drinking of water.<br />
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But since our society as a whole couldn't care less anymore what the Bible teaches (it's regarded as an outdated, outmoded, irrelevancy from ancient times), it doesn't have any societal effect on the discussion.<br />
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<b>10. SUCCESSFULLY BRAINWASHED YOUNG PEOPLE LEAD THE CHARGE</b></div>
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Young people are polling some 80% in favor of same-sex "marriage." This is why society changed so rapidly. Politicians (and Supreme Court Justices) saw the trend, and started jumping on the bandwagon. Liberal Democrats love anti-traditionalism in morals, and so they were entirely predictable (with Obama and the Clintons flipping on a dime, just as Bill Clinton (like Gore and Jesse Jackson; even Teddy Kennedy) had done regarding abortion.<br />
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Less predictable was the Republican or conservative espousal of these sins. But since much of conservatism or Republican "thinking" these days is dominated by a secular libertarianism, it started breaking down, too. Pretty soon it was a fashion, and no one wants to be out of fashion or unpopular, or regarded as a bigot, and all of a sudden a New Norm was here and people jumped on the bandwagon, not having the spine or principle to disagree and be unpopular.<br />
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<b>11. POLITICAL CONSIDERATIONS AND HOW "REPUBLICANS" BROUGHT THIS ABOUT EVERY BIT AS MUCH AS LIBERAL DEMOCRATS</b></div>
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Politically, our beloved independents, swing voters, third party types, and libertarians, widespread among conservatives (in the "Stupid" Republican Party), have directly helped bring about same-sex "marriage" just as they have prolonged abortion. We had a golden opportunity to overthrow the latter and prevent the former. It only came about by the vote of one man, after all (Justice Kennedy, supposedly a "Catholic"). The third-party types became disenchanted with Republicans because they weren't perfect, or canonized saints (as if they ever were or could be), and either voted for an irrelevant third party candidate or sat home on their hands on election day. The irrational, mindless fanaticism for the pro-abort Ross Perot in 1992 literally (undeniably) cost the elder President Bush the election. <br />
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We shot ourselves in the foot, as so often, and have now reaped what we have sown. This led to four terms since 1992 of liberal Democrat Presidents, who in turn appointed morally radical Supreme Court Justices. Had Clinton and Obama at least not been re-elected, the Court would likely look different and we wouldn't be in the mess we're in. But because the myth among libertarians is that both parties are exactly the same, they enable Democrats to get elected, and the Supreme Court is able to make an atrocious ruling like this.<br />
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It's true that Justice Kennedy was appointed by Reagan, but as a result of the Democrat travesty against Robert Bork. Bork died in 2012, so had he been on the court, Obama would have replaced him with another radical, even if he had been defeated in 2012, because he would still be in office. In any event, presidential elections have huge repercussions. Because conservatives have failed in their in-fighting and compromises, and snatched defeat from the jaws of victory, secularism now reigns supreme, and increasingly intolerant.<br />
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President Clinton blessed us with the liberal Justices Ginsburg (1993) and Breyer (1994). If the third-party / swing voters, etc. hadn't handed him the election in 1992 by absurdly voting for Perot, those would have been likely conservative appointees and this vote would have been different. President Obama has appointed Justices Sotomayor (2009) and Kagan (2010). All four, of course, voted for "gay marriage" (liberal appointees always remain liberal / leftist / secularist). Again, presidential voting has great consequences. We could have easily won this cultural / political battle. But the myth and fairy tale that the two political parties are exactly the same has been a large part of the cause of our downfall. Thanks, secular libertarians and RINOs!<br />
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As recently as 1986 (Bowers v. Hardwick), the Supreme Court upheld anti-sodomy laws. According to the article on this case in Wikipedia:<br />
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<blockquote class="tr_bq">
The majority opinion, written by Justice Byron White, argued that the Constitution did not confer 'a fundamental right to engage in homosexual sodomy.' A concurring opinion by Chief Justice Warren E. Burger cited the 'ancient roots' of prohibitions against homosexual sex, . . . Burger concluded: 'To hold that the act of homosexual sodomy is somehow protected as a fundamental right would be to cast aside millennia of moral teaching.' . . .<br />
The opinion . . . [stated] 'to claim that a right to engage in such conduct is "deeply rooted in this Nation's history and tradition" or "implicit in the concept of ordered liberty" is, at best, facetious.' White was joined by Justices William Rehnquist, Sandra Day O'Connor, Warren E. Burger, and Lewis F. Powell in upholding the anti-sodomy law, while Justices Harry Blackmun, William J. Brennan, Jr., Thurgood Marshall, and John P. Stevens dissented, viewing the law as unconstitutional.</blockquote>
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Yet in 2003 (Lawrence v. Texas), this ruling was reversed (as conservative rulings can be, but hardly ever leftist / secularist rulings), and anti-sodomy laws in 14 states were struck down. The so-called "right" to sodomy was now sanctioned, and it took only 12 additional years to create out of whole cloth a supposed right to "same-sex 'marriage'". Justice Kennedy wrote this ruling, too, joined by three liberal Justices, renegade elder Bush appointee Souter, and Sandra Day O'Connor. The three dissenters were all Republican appointees: Justices Scalia, Rehnquist, and Thomas.<br />
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It's true, as we see, that sometimes Republican appointees (e.g., Souter, O'Connor, Kennedy) "go liberal," but on the other hand, virtually the only Justices that can be counted on to uphold legal and moral traditionalism, are Republican appointees.<br />
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Yet we are told that the two parties are Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee. Don't believe it! Go by the facts, not fanciful rhetoric.<br />
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<b>12. OUR FAILURE TO PRESENT A PLAUSIBLE PRO-ACTIVE VIEW OF MARRIAGE AND SEXUALITY</b></div>
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On the flip side, we Christians have failed to explain why contraception is wrong; how it led to abortion and now same-sex marriage; and have failed in our task to convey a full, vigorous proactive case for abstinence until marriage and the wrongness of sex outside of heterosexual marriage (a subset of apologetics). Thus, children were left open to being brainwashed by societal propaganda, with few Christian alternatives being visible or available or even thought of. Why, then, would we expect anything different of our children? They have taken in what society and their schools offer them (with their mother's milk), and no one wants to go against the grain. The sad irony is that Pope St. John Paul II has given us the gift of his magnificent teaching on the Theology of the Body. But our society (and even many compromised Catholics) no longer cares enough to even<i> read</i>, let alone <i>accept</i> it.<br />
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<b>13. CONCLUSIONS, SUMMARY, SOLUTIONS, AND WHAT LIKELY LIES AHEAD</b></div>
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All of this is why I think legal same-sex marriage is here at this time. It was an inevitable development, and diabolical progression of false ideas, one leading to the next; just as it is also quite arguably inevitable now that traditionally moral Christians will be persecuted in the not-too-distant future, and will be pariahs and outcasts in our wonderfully fulfilling and happy secular society.<br />
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All we have to do is to live and share our faith to counter this, and above all, to have lots of children, to alter demographics, and with it, society. It's not complicated at all. But since Christians now have no more children than anyone else (having bought the secular anti-child mentality), that option is off the table until we see a massive revolution of serious Christians, deciding to have lots of children and to raise them as disciples of Jesus Christ, who accept all that the Bible (and the Church) teaches. That would transform our society.<br />
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It's a long way off, but it could, and I believe will happen. The immediate [human] cause of it will be the persecution which now will inevitably come; indeed, has already begun in several ways.<br />
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My mentor, Servant of God Fr. John Hardon often noted that "the worst centuries were always followed by the best." We're only 15 years into this new century. Revival (based on past history) could very well come. But we're so far gone now that it will take incredible suffering to wake us up, precisely as was required again and again for ancient Israel. Let's pray for revival, and in the meantime, continue to live out and boldly, charitably defend traditional moral teaching.<br />
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Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.com6tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-24520060050062527222015-07-08T09:42:00.000-04:002015-08-10T01:01:30.243-04:00Pope Francis Defended: Helpful Resources for Confused, Troubled, and Frustrated Folks <div class="post-header">
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<a href="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-b1ugq80ozp0/VMEsOSL2sVI/AAAAAAAAIq0/BnjkLRrCph0/s1600/PopeFrancisWords.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><img border="0" height="265" src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-b1ugq80ozp0/VMEsOSL2sVI/AAAAAAAAIq0/BnjkLRrCph0/s1600/PopeFrancisWords.jpg" width="400" /></span></a></div>
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">By Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong </span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
[see also my book, <i>Pope Francis Explained: Survey of Myths, Legends, and Catholic Defenses in Harmony with Tradition</i>] </span></div>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
I wrote on 9-20-13:</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
</span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span class="userContent" style="font-family: inherit;">For all of you out there worried about the
pope. Relax; chill. All is well. We have a pope who says the unexpected:
a lot like Jesus. And, like Jesus, those who don't get it and are
outside looking in, will misunderstand, a<span class="text_exposed_show">nd
those who are in the fold will grasp what is being said, in the context
of historic Catholic teaching, if they look closely enough and don't
get hoodwinked by silly media wishful thinking.</span></span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span data-reactid=".r[2gp5y].[1][4][1]{comment653237254711263_94800903}.[0].{right}.[0].{left}.[0].[0].[0][2]"></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".r[2gp5y].[1][4][1]{comment653237254711263_94800903}.[0].{right}.[0].{left}.[0].[0].[0][3]"><span data-reactid=".r[2gp5y].[1][4][1]{comment653237254711263_94800903}.[0].{right}.[0].{left}.[0].[0].[0][3].[0]"><span data-reactid=".r[2gp5y].[1][4][1]{comment653237254711263_94800903}.[0].{right}.[0].{left}.[0].[0].[0][3].[0].[0]">Those
who are outside often hear only what they want to hear (God loves
everyone, even sinners!!!) and not what they need to hear (stop sinning;
stop <i>this</i> sin . . .).</span></span></span> </span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<br />
I wrote in a letter to a friend:</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
</span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;">It's the same old dumb misunderstandings: media misreports what the
pope said; never understand what he <i>means</i> in context, and in context
with past teachings. Don't fall into their trap! Pope Francis is a good
Catholic; nothing to be alarmed about at all. The world wants Christians
to renounce their teachings. We're the guys who have never done so. We
keep the same moral teaching that the Church had from the beginning: no
abortion, no divorce, no contraception, no same-sex "marriages," etc. Virtually no one
else has done so! So the attack is against us to change traditional
morality, and we will never do that.</span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<br />
<br />
<span style="font-size: small;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/562932037075119">1. Pope Francis' Notable Humility: Could it Possibly "De-Sacralize" the Papacy?</a> (Dave Armstrong, Facebook, 3-14-13)</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/9-things-you-need-to-know-about-pope-franciss-inaugural-mass/">2. Nine things you need to know about Pope Francis's inaugural Mass </a>(Jimmy Akin, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 3-17-13) </span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/should-we-be-concerned-about-pope-franciss-inaugural-mass/">3. Should We Be Concerned About Pope Francis's Inaugural Mass? </a>(Jimmy Akin, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 3-18-13) </span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/pope-francis-on-homosexual-unions/">4. Pope Francis on Homosexual Unions</a> (Jimmy Akin, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 3-20-13) </span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.crisismagazine.com/2013/behind-the-campaign-to-smear-the-pope">5. Behind the Campaign to Smear the Pope</a> (Mary Anastasia O'Grady, <i>Crisis</i> / <i>The Wall Street Journal</i>, 3-22-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/how-should-we-understand-pope-francis-washing-womens-feet/">6. How Should We Understand Pope Francis Washing Women's Feet? </a>(Jimmy Akin, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 3-28-13) </span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/141701656007087">7. Canon Lawyer Pete Vere on the Pope Francis Foot-Washing Controversy</a> (Dave Armstrong's Facebook page, 3-30-13) </span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2013/04/traditionalist-or-radtrad-super-site.html">8. Radical Catholic Reactionary Super-Site <i>Rorate Caeli</i>'s "Cherished Friend" and Featured Pope-Basher, Marcelo González, is a Holocaust Revisionist</a> (Dave Armstrong, <i>Biblical Evidence for Catholicism</i>, 4-8-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/pope-francis-and-lying-to-save-life/">9. Pope Francis and lying to save life </a>(Jimmy Akin, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 5-15-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2013/05/did-pope-francis-preach-salvation-by-works.html">10. Did Pope Francis Preach Salvation by Works??</a> (Fr. Dwight Longenecker, <i>Standing on My Head</i>, 5-23-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://catholicism.org/dreadful-misleading-headline-of-catholic-online-pins-heresy-on-pope.html">11. Dreadful Misleading Headline of Catholic Online Pins Heresy on Pope</a> (Brian Kelly, <i>Catholicism.org</i>, 5-23-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://jimmyakin.com/2013/05/did-pope-francis-say-that-atheists-can-get-to-heaven-by-good-works.html">12. Did Pope Francis Say That Atheists Can Get to Heaven by Good Works?</a> (Jimmy Akin, <i>JimmyAkin.com</i>, 5-24-13) </span><br />
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<a href="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/did-pope-francis-poke-protestants-in-the-eye/">13. Did Pope Francis poke Protestants in the eye?</a> (Jimmy Akin, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 6-4-13) </span><br />
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<a href="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/pope-francis-and-the-vatican-gay-lobby10-things-to-know-and-share/">14. Pope Francis and the Vatican "gay lobby"—10 things to know and share</a> (Jimmy Akin, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 6-12-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/gmg-26831/">15. From the IOR to the gay lobby: Pope Francis tells all on flight from Rio to Rome </a> (Andrea Tornielli, <i>Vatican Insider</i>, 7-29-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/7-things-you-need-to-know-about-what-pope-francis-said-about-gays">16. Seven things you need to know about what Pope Francis said about gays </a>(Jimmy Akin, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 7-29-13 </span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.catholic.com/blog/michelle-arnold/pope-francis-and-the-franciscan-friars#.UiC8BJM4QJ8.facebook">17. Pope Francis and the Franciscan Friars</a> (Michelle Arnold, <i>Catholic Answers</i>, 7-30-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2013/07/donrsquot-tell-the-press-pope-francis-is-using-them">18. Don’t Tell the Press: Pope Francis Is Using Them</a> (Elizabeth Scalia, <i>First Things</i>, 7-30-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/misinterpreting-francis">19. Misinterpreting Francis </a>[Homosexuality] (Edward Pentin, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 7-30-13) </span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/franciscans-of-the-immaculate-decree-worries-traditionalists/#.Ufgy2jXIaSU.facebook">20. Franciscans of the Immaculate decree worries traditionalists</a> (<i>Catholic News Agency</i>, 7-30-13) </span><br />
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<a href="http://catholicism.about.com/b/2013/07/30/pope-francis-on-homosexuality-take-a-deep-breath.htm">21. Pope Francis on Homosexuality: Take a Deep Breath</a> (Scott P. Richert, <i>About.com Catholicism</i>, 7-30-13)</span><br />
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<a href="http://www.crisismagazine.com/2013/on-the-popes-remarks-about-homosexuality">22. On the Pope’s Remarks about Homosexuality</a> (Scott P. Richert, <i>Crisis</i>, 8-1-13) </span><br />
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<a href="http://www.crisismagazine.com/2013/what-did-the-pope-really-say-about-gays-in-the-priesthood">23. What Did the Pope Really Say about Gays in the Priesthood?</a> (Fr. Regis Scanlon, O.F.M. Cap., <i>Crisis</i>, 8-5-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2013/08/pope-francis-uses-terminology-of.html">24. Pope Francis Uses the Terminology of "Extreme Traditionalism" (Some Quibbles with Kevin Tierney's Arguments)</a> (Dave Armstrong, <i>Biblical Evidence for Catholicism</i>, 8-5-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.crisismagazine.com/2013/pope-francis-will-enliven-the-benedict-legacy#.Ugj4jhWH8d0.facebook">25. Pope Francis Will Enliven the Benedict Legacy</a> (Jeffrey Tucker, <i>Crisis</i>, 8-12-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/what-should-we-make-of-pope-francis-bowing-when-greeting-people/">26. What should we make of Pope Francis bowing when greeting people?</a> (Jimmy Akin, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 8-30-13) </span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/is-pope-francis-about-to-eliminate-celibacy-9-things-to-know-and-share/">27. Is Pope Francis about to eliminate celibacy? (9 things to know and share)</a> (Jimmy Akin, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 9-12-13) </span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.catholicvote.org/what-pope-francis-really-said-about-atheists/">28. What Pope Francis really said about atheists</a> (Stephen Kokx, <i>Catholic Vote</i>, 9-13-13) </span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/did-pope-francis-say-atheists-dont-need-to-believe-in-god-to-be-saved-9-thi">29. Did Pope Francis say atheists don’t need to believe in God to be saved? (9 things to know)</a> (Jimmy Akin, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 9-15-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/pope-francis-focuses-on-the-bigger-picture-with-new-interview">30. Pope Francis Focuses on the Bigger Picture With New Interview</a> (Jimmy Akin, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 9-20-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><a href="http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1303991.htm"><br /></a>
<a href="http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1303991.htm">31. Pope condemns abortion as product of 'throwaway culture' </a>(Francis X. Rocca, <i>Catholic News Service</i>, </span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;">9-20-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/steven-greydanus/go-home-new-york-times-youre-drunk/">32. Go Home New York Times, You’re Drunk </a> (Steven D. Greydanus, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 9-20-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/markshea/2013/09/francis-interview-and-the-unexpected-unity-of-the-ny-times-and-the-francis-haters.html">33. Francis’ Interview and the Unexpected Unity of the NY Times and the Francis Haters</a> (Mark Shea, <i>Catholic and Enjoying It</i>, 9-20-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/markshea/2013/09/pope-francis-contradicts-himself.html">34. Pope Francis Contradicts Himself!</a> (Mark Shea, <i>Catholic and Enjoying It</i>, 9-20-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/theanchoress/2013/09/20/francis-confounds-the-associated-press/">35. Francis Confounds the Associated Press </a>(Elizabeth Scalia, <i>The Anchoress</i>, 9-20-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godandthemachine/2013/09/francis-and-benedict-peter-and-john/">36. Francis and Benedict, Peter and John</a> (Thomas L. McDonald, <i>God and the Machine</i>, 9-20-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=997">37. The key to understanding Pope Francis: the 99 lost sheep </a>(Phil Lawler, <i>CatholicCulture.org</i>, 9-20-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><a href="http://www.crisismagazine.com/2013/pope-francis-and-his-critics">38. Pope Francis and His Critics </a> (Scott P. Richert, <i>Crisis</i>, 9-23-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.lifenews.com/2013/09/23/pope-francis-has-not-diluted-the-pro-life-teachings-of-the-catholic-church/">39. Pope Francis Has Not Diluted the Pro-Life Teachings of the Catholic Church</a> (Fr. Frank Pavone, <i>LifeNews.com</i>, 9-23-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
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<a href="http://biblicalcatholicism.com/"><img alt="http://biblicalcatholicism.com/" border="0" src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-D8SOhMkO_Wc/VcffWZ-3egI/AAAAAAAAJIM/ypyCkR_JBh0/s1600/Square%2BAd%2B%255B250%2Bx%2B250%255D.jpg" title="" /></a></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span></div>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.catholic.com/blog/michelle-arnold/the-mission-of-pope-francis-sj">40. The Mission of Pope Francis, S. J.</a> (Michelle Arnold, <i>Catholic Answers</i>, 9-23-13) </span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2013/09/24/Report-Pope-Francis-Excommunicates-Australian-Priest-Over-Support-For-Gay-Marriage-Women-Priests">41. Report: Pope Excommunicates Priest for Supporting Gay Marriage, Female Priest</a> (Dr. Susan Berry, <i>Breitbart</i>, 9-24-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.crisismagazine.com/2013/the-papal-interview-a-survey-of-reactions">42. The Papal Interview: A Survey of Reactions </a> (Joseph Meaney, <i>Crisis</i>, 9-25-13) </span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://catholicphilly.com/2013/09/think-tank/weekly-message-from-archbishop-chaput/pope-francis-and-the-interview/">43. Pope Francis and ‘The Interview’</a> (Abp. Charles Chaput, <i>CatholicPhilly.com</i>, 9-25-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.catholic.org/hf/family/story.php?id=52468">44. Pope Francis: Every Unborn Child Has the Lord's Face</a> (Andrew M. Greenwell, Esq., <i>Catholic Online</i>, 9-26-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.americamagazine.org/pope-interview">45. A Big Heart Open to God: The exclusive [<i>complete</i>] interview with Pope Francis</a> (Antonio Spadaro, S. J., <i>America</i>, 9-30-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/did-pope-francis-just-say-that-evangelization-is-nonsense-8-things-to-know/">46. Did Pope Francis just say that evangelization is “nonsense”? 8 things to know and share </a> (Jimmy Akin, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 10-1-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/fr-frank-pavone/the-pope-abortion-mercy-and-context">47. The Pope, Abortion, Mercy and Context </a> (Fr. Frank Pavone, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 10-1-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/is-pope-francis-about-to-rip-up-the-vatican-constitution-12-things-to-know/">48. Is Pope Francis about to “rip up” the Vatican constitution? 12 things to know and share </a>(Jimmy Akin, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 10-2-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.crisismagazine.com/2013/the-popes-pro-life-declaration-in-context#.Uk15ThANGE8.facebook">49. The Pope’s Pro-Life Declaration “in Context” </a> (Dr. William Oddie, <i>Crisis</i>, 10-3-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<span style="font-size: small;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/694111327290522">50. Random Thoughts on Rush Limbaugh's Comments on the Pope's Alleged "Marxism" </a>(Dave Armstrong, Facebook, 5 Dec. 2013) </span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/vatican-scalfari-interview-misses-details-conflates-facts">51. Vatican: Scalfari Interview Misses Details, Conflates Facts</a> (Edward Pentin, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 10-5-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/atheist-interviewer-didnt-take-notes-record-interview-with-pope-francis-vat">52. Atheist interviewer didn’t take notes, record interview with Pope Francis: Vatican spokesman </a>(John-Henry Westen, <i>LifeSiteNews.com</i>, 10-7-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/pope-franciss-new-letter-to-homosexual-catholics-9-things-to-know-and-share">53. Pope Francis’s new letter to homosexual Catholics (9 things to know and share)</a> (Jimmy Akin, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 10-11-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/is-pope-francis-going-to-let-the-divorced-and-remarried-receive-communion">54. Is Pope Francis going to let the divorced and remarried receive Communion?</a> (Jimmy Akin, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 10-22-13) </span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=1000">55. Why the media keep getting Pope Francis all wrong</a> (Phil Lawler, <i>Catholic Culture</i>, 11-7-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.crisismagazine.com/2013/papal-style-caring-for-souls-while-leaving-doctrinal-exposition-to-others?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CrisisMagazine+%28Crisis+Magazine%29">56. Papal Style: Caring for Souls while Leaving Doctrinal Exposition to Others</a> (Dr. William Oddie , <i>Crisis</i>, 11-19-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://byinkorblood.com/pope-francis-derangement-syndrome-vol-iii/">57. Pope Francis Derangement Syndrome Vol. III. Being All About the Legislators of Evil in Illinois</a> (Scott Eric Alt, 11-20-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/popes-words-in-interview-may-not-have-been-his-own-scalfari-says/">58. Pope's words in interview may not have been his own, Scalfari says</a> (Andrea Gagliarducci, <i>Catholic News Agency</i>, 11-21-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://blackbiretta.blogspot.com/2013/11/only-fools-rush-in-where-angels-fear-to.html">59. Only Fools RUSH in Where Angels Fear to Tread: Limbaugh Excoriates Pope Francis Unfairly </a>(Fr. John Trigilio, 11-30-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.theamericanconservative.com/would-someone-just-shut-that-pope-up/?fb_action_ids=187485014785183&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=feed_opengraph&action_object_map=%7B%22187485014785183%22%3A674269959272264%7D&action_type_map=%7B%22187485014785183%22%3A%22og.likes%22%7D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D">60. Would Someone Just Shut That Pope Up?</a> (Patrick J. Deneen, <i>The American Conservative</i>, 12-5-13; mostly about economics)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/mark-shea/the-thing-that-used-to-be-conservatism-puts-out-a-hit-on-francis">61. The Thing That Used to Be Conservatism Puts Out a Hit on Francis</a> (Mark Shea, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 12-5-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.crisismagazine.com/2013/the-controversy-over-evangelii-gaudium">62. The Controversy Over <i>Evangelii Gaudium </i></a> (Rachel Lu, <i>Crisis Magazine</i>, 12-9-13) </span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Blog/2784/pope_francis_addresses_marxism_charges_women_cardinals_in_ila_stampai_interviewii.aspx#.Uq27XvRDvT8">63. Pope Francis addresses Marxism charges, women cardinals in La Stampa interview </a>(Catherine Harmon, <i>The Catholic World Report</i>, 12-15-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/pope-francis-takes-on-allegations-and-rumors-about-his-papacy-9-things-to-k">64. Pope Francis takes on allegations and rumors about his papacy: 9 things to know and share </a> (Jimmy Akin, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 12-15-13)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://ethikapolitika.org/2013/12/16/benedict-defends-francis-markets-ethics/">65. Pope Benedict Defends Francis on Markets and Ethics</a> (Andrew M. Haines, 12-16-13, <i>Ethika Politika</i>)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/pope-francis-on-the-parable-of-the-loaves-and-fishes-11-things-to-know-and">66. Pope Francis on the “parable” of the loaves and fishes: 11 things to know and share</a> (Jimmy Akin, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 1-1-14)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/dont-fall-for-this-pope-francis-hoax-5-things-to-know-and-share">67. Don’t fall for this Pope Francis hoax: 5 things to know and share </a>(Jimmy Akin, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 1-2-14)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2014/01/dialogue-has-pope-francis-changed.html">68. Dialogue: Has Pope Francis Changed the Constant Catholic Prohibition of Contraception?</a> (Dave Armstrong, 1-2-14)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/what-did-pope-francis-say-about-the-children-of-homosexual-couples-8-things/">69. What did Pope Francis say about the children of homosexual couples? 8 things to know and share </a>(Jimmy Akin, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 1-4-14)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.crisismagazine.com/2014/does-francis-really-have-a-marxism-problem?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CrisisMagazine+%28Crisis+Magazine%29">70. Does Francis Really Have a Marxism Problem? </a>(David Byrne, <i>Crisis Magazine</i>, 1-10-14)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/did-pope-francis-baptize-a-baby-whose-parents-arent-married-12-things-to-kn/">71. Did Pope Francis baptize a baby whose parents aren’t married? 12 things to know and share </a>(Jimmy Akin, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 1-12-14)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<span style="font-size: small;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/717237704977884?stream_ref=10">72. "Those
who are willing to understand Pope Francis, can and will do so. Those
who aren't willing, won't, and possibly can't as well."</a> (Dave Armstrong, Facebook, 1-18-14)<br />
<br />
<a href="http://byinkorblood.com/rolling-stoned-on-pope-francis-part-i-in-which-the-untalented-mr-binelli-speaks-untruths-with-acid-certitude/">73. Rolling Stoned on Pope Francis, Part I. In Which the Untalented Mr. Binelli Speaks Untruths With Acid Certitude </a>(Scott Eric Alt, 1-30-14)<br />
<br />
<a href="http://byinkorblood.com/rolling-stoned-on-pope-francis-part-ii/">74. Rolling Stoned on Pope Francis, Part II. In Which the Untalented Mr. Binelli Waxes Doltish on the Humanity of Popes </a>(Scott Eric Alt, 2-1-14)</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.crisismagazine.com/2014/il-papas-not-a-rollin-stone?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CrisisMagazine+%28Crisis+Magazine%29">75. Il Papa’s Not a Rollin’ Stone</a> (Christopher Manion, <i>Crisis Magazine</i>, 2-3-14)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.realclearreligion.org/articles/2014/02/03/the_war_on_pope_francis.html">76. The War on Pope Francis </a>(M. Anthony Mills, <i>Real Clear Religion</i>, 2-3-14) [economics issues]</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://byinkorblood.com/rolling-stoned-on-pope-francis-part-iii/">77.
Rolling Stoned on Pope Francis, Part III. In Which the Untalented Mr.
Binelli is Introduced to Some Catholic Social Thought He Had Overlooked </a> (Scott Eric Alt, 2-4-14)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.catholicbible101.com/popefrancisquotes.htm">78. <i>Quotes from Pope Francis</i></a> [great website that notes the massive distortions and spin taking place about the pope; added on 2-8-14]</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/judge-not#.Uv7ywz2Thg4.facebook">79. Judge Not </a>(Tim Staples, <i>Catholic Answers</i>, 2-14-14) [Same-sex couples and homosexuality]</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/vaticans-cardinal-burke-media-is-mocking-the-pope-by-creating-a-liberal-car?fb_action_ids=10101145179468017&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B770969822914612%5D&action_type_map=%5B%22og.likes%22%5D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D">80. Vatican’s Cardinal Burke: Media is ‘mocking’ the Pope by creating a liberal caricature</a> (Hilary White, <i>LifeSiteNews</i>, 2-25-14)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<span style="font-size: small;"><span style="color: black;"><a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2014/02/does-pope-francis-think-that-jesus-was.html">81. Does
Pope Francis Think that Jesus was Literally a Sinner in a Sense Beyond
Bearing Our Sins on the Cross (Partaking / Entering Into Sin)?</a> (Dave Armstrong, <i>Biblical Evidence for Catholicism</i>, 2-27-14)</span><br />
<br />
<span style="color: black;">
<span style="color: black;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/739682049400116?stream_ref=10">82. "The
New Gnosticism": The Outrage of Checking Translations of Papal Homilies
(+ Elliot Bougis' Claims that Pope Francis is Heretical / Modernist /
Liberal, or Reasonable Facsimile Thereof</a> (Dave Armstrong, Facebook, 2-28-14)</span> </span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/did-pope-francis-just-diss-apologists-9-things-to-know-and-share/">83. Did Pope Francis just diss apologists? 9 things to know and share</a> (Jimmy Akin, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 3-9-14)</span><br />
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<a href="http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Blog/2996/francis_and_traditionalist_catholics.aspx">84. Francis and Traditionalist Catholics</a> (Alberto Carosa, <i>The Catholic World Report</i>, 3-12-14)</span><br />
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<a href="http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/2999/the_medias_fictional_francis.aspx#.UyI6_YWx3gs">85. The Media’s Fictional Francis</a> (John Paul Shimek, <i>The Catholic World Report</i>, 3-13-14) </span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.nationalreview.com/article/373243/pope-franciss-first-year-george-weigel">86. Pope Francis’s First Year </a>(George Weigel, <i>National Review Online</i>, 3-13-14)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/did-pope-francis-tell-a-divorced-and-civilly-remarried-woman-she-could-rece">87. Did Pope Francis tell a divorced and civilly remarried woman she could receive Holy Communion? </a>(Jimmy Akin, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 4-23-14)</span><br />
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<a href="http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Blog/3093/vatican_responds_to_francis_call_to_argentinian_woman_more_details_emerge.aspx">88. Vatican responds to Francis’ call to Argentinian woman; more details emerge</a> (Catherine Harmon, <i>The Catholic World Report</i>, 4-24-14)</span><br />
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<a href="http://hotair.com/archives/2014/05/09/pope-francis-zacchaeus-and-legitimate-redistribution/">89. Pope Francis: Zacchaeus and “legitimate redistribution”</a> (Ed Morrissey, <i>Hot Air</i>, 5-9-14)</span><br />
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<a href="http://www.conservativeintel.com/2014/05/09/breaking-pope-francis-is-not-an-anarcho-capitalist/">90. Breaking: Pope Francis is not an anarcho-capitalist</a> (David Freddoso, <i>Conservative Intelligence Briefing</i>, 5-9-14)</span><br />
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<a href="http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/377617/totally-missing-pope-francis-story-yet-again-kathryn-jean-lopez">91. Totally Missing the Pope Francis Story, Yet Again</a> (Kathryn Jean Lopez , <i>National Review Online</i>, 5-9-14)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2014/05/reply-to-ridiculous-bum-rap-that-i-and.html">92. Reply
to the Ridiculous Bum Rap that I (and Many Apologists) are
"Ultramontanists" Who are Special Pleading and Defending the Pope No
Matter What (as if his favorite color or ice cream were infallible,
binding decrees)</a> (Dave Armstrong, <span style="color: black;"><i>Biblical Evidence for Catholicism</i>, 5-</span>12-14) </span><br />
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<a href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2014/06/muslim-prayers-in-the-vaticanshock-horror.html">93. Muslim Prayers in the Vatican…Shock Horror?!!?</a> (Fr. Dwight Longenecker, <i>Standing On My Head</i>, 6-7-14) [+ <a href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2014/06/muslims-and-catholics-what-i-did-not-say.html">follow-up article</a>]</span><br />
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<a href="http://www.ccwatershed.org/blog/2014/jul/10/pope-francis-sound-doctrine-memory-and-adoration/">94. Pope Francis on Sound Doctrine, Memory, and Adoration</a> (Dr. Peter Kwasniewski, 7-10-14, <i>Views from the Choir Loft</i>)</span><br />
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<span class="userContent"><a href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2014/07/ten-things-to-remember-if-pope-francis-upsets-you.html">95. Ten Things to Remember if Pope Francis Upsets You</a> (Fr. Dwight Longenecker,</span> <i>Standing On My Head</i>, 7-15-14)</span><br />
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<a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2014/08/reply-to-critique-of-my-book-pope.html">96. Reply to a Critique of My Book, <i>Pope Francis Explained</i>, by Dr. Phil Blosser</a> (Dave Armstrong, <span style="color: black;"><i>Biblical Evidence for Catholicism</i>, 8-</span>24-14) </span><br />
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<a href="http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/no-scandal-here-how-the-20-couples-married-by-pope-francis-were-legit-45669/">97. No scandal here: How the 20 couples married by Pope Francis were legit</a> (Kevin Jones and Ann Schneible, <i>Catholic News Agency</i>, 9-15-14)</span><br />
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<a href="http://time.com/3545844/pope-francis-evolution-creationism/">98. Sorry, But Media Coverage of Pope Francis is Papal Bull</a> (Elizabeth Dias, <i>Time</i>, 10-29-14)</span><br />
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<a href="http://www.crisismagazine.com/2014/pope-francis-duping-liberals-marriage">99. Is Pope Francis Duping Liberals on Marriage?</a> (Paul Kengor, <i>American Spectator</i>, 11-21-14) </span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.npr.org/2014/11/30/366368633/pope-francis-as-reformer-evangelizer-and-doctrinal-conservative?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=2055">100. Pope Francis As Reformer, Evangelizer — And Doctrinal Conservative</a> (National Public Radio; <i>All Things Considered</i>: review of <i>The Great Reformer</i> by Austin Ivereigh, 11-30-14)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.crisismagazine.com/2014/hierarchy-really-means">101. What Hierarchy Really Means</a> (By Eric Johnston, <i>Crisis Magazine</i>, 12-1-14)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2014/12/the-popes-true-agenda">102. The Pope's True Agenda</a> (William Doino, Jr., <i>First Things</i>, 12-1-14)</span><br />
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<a href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godandthemachine/2014/12/no-pope-francis-did-not-call-the-koran-a-prophetic-book-of-peace/">103. No, Pope Francis Did Not Call the Koran a “Prophetic Book of Peace”</a> (Thomas L. McDonald, <i>God and the Machine</i>, 12-5-14)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/905348349500151">104. Pope Francis on Cardinal Burke (+ Discussion) </a>(Dave Armstrong, Facebook, 12-8-14)</span><br />
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<a href="http://www.religionnews.com/2014/12/12/sorry-fido-pope-francis-not-say-pets-going-heaven/">105. Sorry, Fido. Pope Francis did <i>Not </i>say our pets are going to heaven</a> (David Gibson, <i>Religion News Service</i>, 12-12-14)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<span style="font-size: small;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/905348349500151">106. Exchange on Pope Francis and the Church</a> (Dave Armstrong vs. Tony Jokin; Facebook, 12-17-14)<br />
<br />
<a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2015/01/12-ways-that-pope-francis-is-pro.html">107. Documentation: Pope Francis is Orthodox, Pro-Tradition and Against Modernism</a> (Dan Marcum, Catholic Answers Forum, 1-9-15) <br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><a href="http://www.setonmagazine.com/dad/john-clark/the-fathers-role/called-hated-world-pope-francis-problem-likeability">108. Are We Called to be Hated by the World? Pope Francis and the Problem of Likeability</a> (John Clark, <i>Seton Magazine</i>, 1-15-15)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://scottdodge.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-predictable-provocations-of-pope-of.html?m=1">109. The predictable provocations of the Pope of Rome</a> ["Rabbits" controversy] (Deacon Scott Dodge, 1-19-15)</span><br />
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<a href="http://scottericalt.org/more-liberal-denial-and-despair-over-pope-francis/">110. More Liberal Denial and Despair Over Pope Francis</a> (Scott Eric Alt, 1-20-15) </span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithonthecouch/2015/01/pope-francis-and-catholic-rabbits-5-points-to-consider/">111. Pope Francis and Catholic Rabbits–5 Points to Consider </a>(Dr. Greg Popcak, <i>Faith on the Couch</i>, 1-20-15)</span><br />
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<a href="http://thefederalist.com/2015/01/20/dont-pick-political-fights-with-pope-francis/">112. Don’t Pick Political Fights With Pope Francis</a> (Rachel Lu, <i>The Federalist</i>, 1-20-15) </span><br />
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<a href="http://www.catholicvote.org/3-rules-to-avoid-feeling-devastated-by-what-pope-francis-says/">113. Feeling Devastated by What Pope Francis Says? Try These 3 Helpful Keys</a> (Thomas Peters, <i>Catholic Vote.org</i>, 1-21-15) </span><br />
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<a href="http://www.setonmagazine.com/latest-articles/christ-became-sinner-pope-francis-bad-translators#H2xaXZMvu1Vo7Si5.99">114. Christ "Became the Sinner": Pope Francis and Bad Translators </a>(Dave Armstrong, <i>Seton Magazine</i>, 1-21-15)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2015/01/catholics-reproducing-like-rabbits.html">115.
Catholics Reproducing Like "Rabbits": The Essential Silliness of the
Clueless Perceptions of Pope Francis' Perfectly Catholic and Orthodox
Remarks</a> (Dave Armstrong, <span style="color: black;"><i>Biblical Evidence for Catholicism</i>, </span>1-21-15) [+ <a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/933196396715346">Facebook discussion</a>]</span><br />
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<a href="http://scottericalt.org/rick-santorum-should-read-the-transcript/">116. Rick Santorum Should Read the Transcript of Pope Francis’s “Rabbits” Remark. So Should Everyone Else </a>(Scott Eric Alt, 1-21-15) </span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/933605616674424">117. Jeremiad About Catholics Behaving in "Dumb" Ways with Regard to the Words of Pope Francis</a> (Dave Armstrong, Facebook, 1-22-15)</span><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=933617490006570&set=a.387911517910506.94652.100000749848938&type=1">118. Debate About Pope Francis Supposedly Having "Foot-in-the-Mouth" Disease</a> (Dave Armstrong, Facebook, 1-22-15)</span><br />
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<a href="http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/papa-filippine-38689/">119. On rabbits and number of offspring: What the Pope did and did not say</a> (<i>Vatican Insider</i>, 1-22-15) </span><br />
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<a href="http://www.crisismagazine.com/2015/pope-francis-prepares-shock-liberals-sex-marriage">120. Pope Francis Shocks Liberals on Same-Sex “Marriage”</a> (Paul Kengor, <i>Crisis Magazine</i>, 1-23-15)</span><br />
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<a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2015/01/was-pope-francis-correct-in-publicly.html">121. Was Pope Francis Correct in Publicly Rebuking as "Irresponsible" a Woman Who Had Had Seven C-Sections? </a>(Dave Armstrong, <span style="color: black;"><i>Biblical Evidence for Catholicism</i>, </span>1-23-15) [+ <a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/934127193288933">Facebook discussion</a>]</span><br />
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<a href="http://scottericalt.org/john-bugay-makes-crude-joke-about-multiple-orgasms/">122. Critique of Anti-Catholic John Bugay's Attack on Pope Francis Regarding the "Rabbits" Controversy </a>(Scott Eric Alt, 1-23-15)</span><br />
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<a href="http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-francis-surprised-by-misunderstanding-of-his-words-on-family-87111/">123. Pope Francis surprised by misunderstanding of his words on family </a>(<i>Catholic News Agency</i>, 1-24-15)</span><br />
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<a href="http://www.cruxnow.com/church/2015/01/27/when-francis-rips-proselytism-whos-he-talking-about/">124. When Pope Francis rips ‘proselytism,’ who’s he talking about? He really may not be talking about, or to, Catholics at all</a> (John L. Allen, Jr., <i>Crux</i>, 1-27-15)</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><a href="http://scottericalt.org/anti-papal-malarkey-and-damnable-schism/">125. Anti-Papal Malarkey and Damnable Schism. Or, Pope Francis Derangement Syndrome Vol. X. Maureen Mullarkey Edition.</a> (Scott Eric Alt, 1-28-15)</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><a href="http://www.aleteia.org/en/religion/article/understanding-the-apocalyptic-vision-of-pope-francis-5787394804547584">126. Understanding the Apocalyptic Vision of Pope Francis: The Church at war with the world underlies all</a> (Fr. Dwight Longenecker, <i>Aleteia</i>, 1-29-15)</span><br />
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<a href="http://www.crisismagazine.com/2015/gay-marriage-honeymoon-pope-francis">127. Is the Left’s Honeymoon with Pope Francis Finally Over?</a> (Paul Kengor, <i>Crisis Magazine</i>, 2-17-15)</span><br />
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<a href="http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/vip-treatment-for-lgbt-group-at-the-vatican-not-really-72364/">128. VIP treatment for LGBT group at the Vatican? Not really </a>(Andrea Gagliarducci, <i>Catholic News Agency</i> / <i>EWTN News</i>, 2-19-15)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/949307415104244">129. Facebook Threads Regarding Whether Pope Francis is Being "Bashed"</a> (Dave Armstrong + <a href="https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=949342141767438&set=a.387911517910506.94652.100000749848938&type=1">Part Two</a> / <a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/950259795009006">Part III </a>/ 2-19-15 and 2-21-15)</span><br />
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130. <a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/950268611674791">"Why is Pope Francis so loved by the liberals?"</a> (Dave Armstrong, Facebook, 2-21-15)</span><br />
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131. <a href="http://scottericalt.org/shocked-the-pope-is-catholic/">I’m Shocked, Shocked to Find That There is Orthodoxy Going On In This Papacy</a> [<i>Market Watch</i> and <i>Daily Beast</i>] (Scott Eric Alt, 2-23-15)</span><br />
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132. <a href="http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2014/01/03/is-pope-francis-papacy-a-new-front-for-the-left/">Is Pope Francis' Papacy a New Front for the Left?</a> (Kate O'Hare, <i>Breitbart</i>, 1-3-14)</span><br />
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133. <a href="http://scottericalt.org/a-counterblast-to-rush-limbaugh-on-evangelii-gaudium-54/">A Counterblast to Rush Limbaugh on <i>Evangelii Gaudium</i> 54</a> (Scott Eric Alt, 12-3-13)</span><br />
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134. <a href="http://jmgarciaiii.blogspot.com/2014/10/the-game-changer-nobody-has-noticed.html"> The game changer nobody has noticed</a> [Pope Francis' closing remarks to the Extraordinary Synod of Bishops] (Joe Garcia, <i>Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam</i>, 10-21-14)</span><br />
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135. <a href="http://jmgarciaiii.blogspot.com/2013/11/here-we-go-again-or-lousy-english.html">Here We Go Again or "Lousy English Translations, Pt. CCXVIII"</a> (Joe Garcia, <i>Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam</i>, 11-26-13)</span><br />
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136. <a href="http://www.mondayvatican.com/vatican/pope-francis-an-agenda-behind-his-back">Pope Francis: An Agenda Behind his Back?</a> (Andrea Gagliarducci, <i>MondayVatican</i>, 2-23-15)</span><br />
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137. <a href="http://maryvictrix.com/2015/02/18/concerning-recent-reports-from-the-blogosphere-on-the-state-of-the-franciscan-friars-of-the-immaculate/">Concerning Recent Reports from the Blogosphere on the State of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate</a> (Fr. Angelo M. Geiger, <i>Mary Victrix</i>, 2-18-15)</span><br />
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138. <a href="http://www.crisismagazine.com/2015/freedom-creative-becomes-freedom-create-oneself">Pope Francis Defends Human Nature Against Gender Radicals</a> (Anne Hendershott, <i>Crisis Magazine</i>, 2-25-15)</span><br />
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139. <a href="http://www.crisismagazine.com/2015/irish-liberals-second-thoughts-pope-francis">Irish Liberals Have Second Thoughts on Pope Francis </a>(John P. McCarthy, <i>The Irish Echo</i>, 2-25-15 / reprinted in <i>Crisis Magazine</i>, 3-2-15)</span><br />
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140. <a href="http://www.crisismagazine.com/2015/can-pope-heretic">Can a Pope Be a Heretic?</a> (Jacob W. Wood, <i>Crisis Magazine</i>, 3-4-15)</span><br />
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141. <a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11362224/Pope-Francis-he-aint-no-liberal.-Beware-of-his-two-faces.html">Beware of the two faces of Pope Francis: he ain't no liberal </a>(Jemima Thackray [a liberal], <i>The Telegraph</i>, 1-22-15)</span><br />
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142. <a href="http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/02/23/liberals-riled-over-popes-war-on-gender-ideology/">Notre Dame Prof Accuses Pope Francis of Being a Misogynist</a> (Thomas P. Williams, <i>Breitbart</i>, 2-23-15)</span><br />
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143. <a href="http://www.catholicvote.org/signs-of-hope-the-benedict-bishop-bump/">Signs of Hope: The Benedict Bishop Bump</a> (Thomas Peters, <i>Catholic Vote</i>, 3-4-15)</span><br />
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144. <a href="http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Blog/3736/foundless_francis_fantasies.aspx">Foundless Francis Fantasies</a> (Dr. Adam A. J. DeVille, <i>The Catholic World Report</i>, 3-6-15)</span><br />
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145. <a href="http://www.crisismagazine.com/2015/demystifying-pope-francis-enigma">Demystifying the Pope Francis Enigma</a> (Msgr. Hans Feichtinger, <i>Crisis Magazine</i>, 3-17-15)</span><br />
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146. <a href="http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=1083">Insights on the enigma that is Pope Francis</a> (Phil Lawler, <i>Catholic Culture</i>, 3-27-15)</span><br />
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147. <a href="http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=1084">Misunderstanding Pope Francis: the secular outlook and the scandal of the Cross</a> (Phil Lawler, <i>Catholic Culture</i>, 4-9-15)</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">148. <a href="http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Blog/3601/if_pope_francis_is_a_radical_environmentalist_what_was_pope_benedict_xvi.aspx">If Pope Francis is a "radical" environmentalist, what was Pope Benedict XVI?</a> (Carl E. Olson, <i>The Catholic World Report</i>, 12-29-14)</span><br />
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149. <a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/the-pope/11527987/Pope-Francis-refuses-gay-French-ambassador.html">Pope Francis 'refuses' gay French ambassador </a> (Henry Samuel, <i>The Telegraph</i>, 4-10-15)</span><br />
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150. <a href="http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/pope-francis-removal-of-differences-between-man-and-woman-is-the-problem-not-the-solution">Pope Francis: Removal of Differences Between Man and Woman Is the Problem, Not the Solution </a>(<i>Zenit</i>, 4-15-15)</span><br />
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151. <a href="http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=1088">The unholy political battle to denounce—or exploit—the Pope's environmental message </a>(Phil Lawler, <i>Catholic Culture</i>, 5-8-15)</span><br />
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152. <a href="http://www.aleteia.org/en/religion/news/pope-francis-challenging-and-humbling-the-faithful-5796513200472064">Pope Francis: Challenging and Humbling the Faithful</a> (David Mills, <i>Aleteia: Religion</i>, 5-20-15)</span><br />
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153. <a href="http://swimmingthedepths.com/2015/05/27/i-am-not-the-pope-and-neither-are-you/">I Am Not the Pope and Neither Are You</a> (Constance T. Hull, <i>Swimming the Depths</i>, 5-27-15)</span><br />
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154. <a href="http://m.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/did-pope-francis-say-it-doesnt-matter-what-kind-of-christian-you-are-9-thin/#ixzz3bH4HKunY">Did Pope Francis say it doesn’t matter what kind of Christian you are? 9 things to know</a> (Jimmy Akin, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 5-26-15)</span><br />
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155. <a href="http://www.crisismagazine.com/2015/pope-francis-children-have-a-right-to-a-mother-and-father">Pope Francis: “Children have a ‘Right’ to a Mother and Father” </a>(Paul Kengor,<i> Crisis Magazine</i>, 6-8-15)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />156. <a href="http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/otc.cfm?id=1301">Pope Francis simply doesn’t take sides</a> (Dr. Jeff Mirus, <i>CatholicCulture.org</i>, 6-5-15)<br /><br />157. <a href="http://www.news.va/en/news/pope-marriage-between-man-and-woman-no-to-gender-i">Pope: marriage between man and woman, no to gender ideology</a> (<i>News.Va: Official Vatican Network</i>, 6-8-15) <br /><br />158. <a href="http://www.hprweb.com/2015/06/pope-francis-and-the-just-third-way/">Pope Francis and the Just Third Way</a> (Michael D. Greaney, <i>Homiletic & Pastoral Review</i>, 6-13-15)<br /><br />159. <a href="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/draft-of-popes-encyclical-leaked-12-things-to-know-and-share/">Draft of Environmental Encyclical Leaked! 12 Things to Know and Share</a><a href="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/draft-of-popes-encyclical-leaked-12-things-to-know-and-share/"> </a>(Jimmy Akin, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 6-15-15)</span><br />
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160. <a href="http://www.crisismagazine.com/2015/mixing-up-the-sciences-of-heaven-and-earth">Mixing Up the Sciences of Heaven and Earth</a> (Fr. George W. Rutler, <i>Crisis Magazine</i>, 6-18-15)</span><br />
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161. <a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2015/06/pope-francis-encyclical-laudato-si.html">Pope Francis' Encyclical <i>Laudato si</i>: A Beautiful and Profoundly Wise Statement of Christian Environmentalism and Theology of Creation</a> (Dave Armstrong, <i>Biblical Evidence for Catholicism</i>, 6-18-15)<br /><br />162. <a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.in/2015/06/critique-of-chris-ferraras-radical.html">Critique of Chris Ferrara's Radical Reactionary Hit-Piece in Opposition to Pope Francis' Christian Environmentalism</a> (Dave Armstrong, <i>Biblical Evidence for Catholicism</i>, 6-20-15)</span><br />
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163. <a href="http://ethikapolitika.org/2015/06/22/pope-franciss-conservatism-of-joy/">Pope Francis’s Conservatism of Joy</a> (Aaron Taylor, <i>Ethika Politika</i>, 6-22-15)</span><br />
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164. <a href="http://www.crisismagazine.com/2015/fear-not-faithful-catholics">Fear Not, Faithful Catholics</a> (Paul Kengor, <i>Crisis Magazine</i>, 6-25-15)</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">165. <a href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jenniferfitz/2015/06/pope-franciss-puzzling-comments-on-guns-and-war-the-clue-to-understanding-laudato-si/">Pope Francis’s Puzzling Comments on Guns and War: The Clue to Understanding Laudato Si’</a> (Jennfer Fitz, <i>Sticking the Corners</i>, 6-22-15) </span></div>
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">166. <a href="http://www.catholicstand.com/pope-francis-has-single-handedly-destroyed-catholicism/">Pope Francis Has Single-Handedly Destroyed Catholicism</a> (JoAnna Wahlund, <i>Catholic Stand</i>, 9-18-13)</span><br />
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167. <a href="http://www.catholicstand.com/pope-francis-has-single-handedly-destroyed-catholicism-again/">Pope Francis has single-handedly destroyed Catholicism AGAIN</a> (JoAnna Wahlund, <i>Catholic Stand</i>, 6-25-15)</span><br />
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168. <a href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/theanchoress/2015/07/14/yes-the-popes-speech-should-bother-us-but/?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork">A Prophetic Pope and the Tradition of Catholic Social Teaching</a> (Fr. Robert Barron, <i>Patheos</i>, 7-14-15)</span><br />
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169. <a href="http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/pope-francis-on-weapons-12-things-to-know-and-share/">Pope Francis on Weapons: 12 things to know and share</a> (Jimmy Akin, <i>National Catholic Register</i>, 6-27-15)</span><br />
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170. <a href="http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/issues/july-10th-2015-2/an-extraordinary-turn-of-events/">An Extraordinary turn of events</a> [Pope Francis and "traditionalism"] (Joseph Shaw, <i>Catholic Herald</i>, 7-9-15)</span><br />
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171. <a href="http://www.newrepublic.com/article/122404/pope-francis-losing-approval-united-states">Pope Francis Against the World</a> (Elizabeth Stoker Bruenig, <i>New Republic</i>, 7-30-15)</span></div>
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">[see also my book, <a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2014/01/books-by-dave-armstrong-pope-francis.html"><i>Pope Francis Explained: Survey of Myths, Legends, and Catholic Defenses in Harmony with Tradition</i></a>; especially the <a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2014/01/introduction-to-my-book-pope-francis.html">Introduction</a>]</span><br />
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<span style="color: magenta;">Updated periodically with new relevant articles. </span></span><br />
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Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-16758637958315656652015-07-07T18:25:00.000-04:002015-07-28T18:34:38.968-04:00Apologetics-Oriented Biblical Commentary on Colossians (RSV)<br />
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By Dave Armstrong (1998)</center>
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Chapter 1</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">1 Paul, an <i>apostle</i> of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ at Colos'sae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father. </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">3 We always thank</span><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><i style="font-family: inherit;">God, the Father</i><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, 4 because we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love which you have for all the saints, 5 because of the hope laid up for you in heaven. Of this you have heard before in the word of the truth, the gospel 6 which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and growing--so among yourselves, from the day you heard and understood the</span><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><i style="font-family: inherit;">grace of God</i><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">in truth, 7 as you learned it from Ep'aphras our beloved fellow servant. He is a faithful minister of Christ on our behalf 8 and has made known to us your love in the Spirit. </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">9 And so, from the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to</span><i style="font-family: inherit;"> </i><span style="font-family: inherit;">pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his willin all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 to lead a life worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every</span><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><i style="font-family: inherit;">good work</i><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">and increasing in the knowledge of God. 11 May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. 13 He has delivered us from the dominion of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have</span><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><i style="font-family: inherit;">redemption</i><span style="font-family: inherit;">, the forgiveness of sins. </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">15 He is the</span><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><b style="font-family: inherit;">image of the invisible God</b><span style="font-family: inherit;">, the</span><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><b style="font-family: inherit;">first-born of all creation</b><span style="font-family: inherit;">; 16 for</span><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><b style="font-family: inherit;">in him all things were created</b><span style="font-family: inherit;">, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the</span><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><b style="font-family: inherit;">beginning</b><span style="font-family: inherit;">, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. 19 For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;">21 And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, 23 provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and</span><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><b style="font-family: inherit;">in my flesh I complete what is lacking</b><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">in Christ's afflictions for the sake of</span><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><i style="font-family: inherit;">his body, that is, the church</i><span style="font-family: inherit;">, 25 of which I became a minister according to the divine office which was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, 26 the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now made manifest to his saints. 27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is</span><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><i style="font-family: inherit;">Christ in you</i><span style="font-family: inherit;">, the hope of glory. 28 Him we proclaim, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man mature in Christ. 29 For this I toil, striving with all the energy which he mightily inspires within me.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i>apostle: </i>Gr. <i>apostolos=sent one</i> or <i>ambassador: </i>Mt 10:2; Lk 22:14; Ac 2:37; 8:18; 15:2-6,22-23; Rm 1:1; 11:13; 1Co 1:1; 9:1-5; 12:28-29; 2Co 1:1; 12:11-12; 1Pt 1:1; 2Pt 3:2; Jd 17; Rv 21:14</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i>God, the Father: </i>Is 9:6; 64:8; Jr 31:9; Ma 2:10; Mt 5:45-48; 6:1-32; 11:27; Jn 3:35; 5:18; 6:27; Rm 1:7; 8:15; 1Co 8:6; Gl 1:1-4; 4:6; Ep 5:20; Ph 2:11; Cl 3:17; 1Th 1:1; Hb 1:5; Jm 1:27; 1Pt 1:2-3; 1Jn 2:1,14-24</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i>grace of God: </i>Lk 1:28; Jn 1:17; Ac 4:33; 6:8; 11:23; 13:43; 14:26; 15:11,40; Rm 5:15; 16:20; 1Co 3:10; 15:10; 16:23; 2Co 8:1; 9:14; 13:13; Gl 2:21; Ep 3:2,7-8; Ph 1:2,7; 1Th 5:28; 1Tm 1:14; Ti 2:11; Hb 2:9; 1Pt 5:5,10,12; 2Pt 3:18; Jd 4; Rv 22:21</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i>good work(s): </i>Jn 10:32; 14:12; Ac 9:36; 2Co 9:8; Gl 6:4,10; Ep 2:10; Ph 1:6; 2Th 2:17; 1Tm 2:10; 5:10,25; 6:18; 2Tm 2:21; 3:17; Ti 1:16; 2:7; 3:1,8,14; Jm 2:14-26; Rv 20:12</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i>redemption: </i>Lk 21:28; Rm 3:24; 1Co 1:30; Ep 1:7,14; 4:30; Hb 9:15</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i>his body, that is, the church: </i>Rm 7:4; 12:5; 1Co 10:17; 12:12-27; Ep 1:22-23; 4:4,12,16; 5:30; Cl 1:18; 2:19; 3:15</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i>Christ in you: </i>(the indwelling): Jn 14:17-18,20,23; 15:4; 16:7; 17:23; Rm 8:9-11; 1Co 2:12; 3:16; 6:19; 2Co 6:16; Gl 4:6; 1Jn 3:24; 4:12-13</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b>Image of the invisible God: </b>God the Father is invisible, and can't be seen, as He is a Spirit (cf. Ex 33:20,23; Jn 1:18; 5:37; 6:46; Cl 1:15; 1Tm 1:17; 6:16; 1Jn 4:12). But Jesus<i> reveals</i>, and is the <i>eikon=image </i>of, the Father (cf. Jn 1:18; 12:45; 14:7-9; 2 Co 4:4; Cl 1:15; Hb 1:3; Rv 22:1-4). Thus, the passages about the <i>invisible</i> God are adequately explained in a non-contradictory manner. Only trinitarianism can make sense out of, and harmonize all the biblical teaching about God's nature.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b>First-born of all creation: </b>Gk. <i>prototokos=firstborn:</i> here means <i>preeminence</i> and <i>eternal preexistenc</i>e, not <i>first-created</i> as some Arian sects hold. OT usage is instructive. David is called <i>first-born</i> in Ps 89:27, not because he was the literal first child of Jesse (for he was the youngest), but in the sense of his ascendancy to the kingship of Israel. Likewise, Jr 31:9 refers to Ephraim as the <i>first-born</i>, whereas Manasseh was chronologically first (Gn 41:50-52). The nation Israel is called <i>my first-born son</i> by God (Ex 4:22). The Jewish rabbinical writers even called God the Father <i>Bekorah Shelolam</i>, meaning <i>firstborn of all creation</i>, precisely as St. Paul uses the phrase here. <i>Prototokos</i> is also used as a title for Jesus in Hb 1:6. In context, Jesus is described as omnipotent (1:3), the <i>reflection</i> (image) of God's glory (1:3), Creator (1:10), worthy of worship (1:6), and is called <i>God</i> by the Father (1:8). All of these characteristics can only apply to God.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b>In him all things were created: </b>Jesus is both eternal and the Creator (cf. Is 9:6; Mc 5:2; Jn 1:1,3,10; 8:58; 13:19; 1Co 8:6; Cl 1:15-17; Hb 1:2,8,10; 13:8; 1Jn 1:1; Rv 1:17-18; 22:13). Besides the above direct indications, Holy Scripture also says that only God is the Creator (cf. Gn 1:1; Ps 33:6; Is 40:28; 44:24; Rm 11:36; 1Co 11:12; Ep 3:9; Hb 2:10; CCC 295-308).</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b>Beginning: </b>Gk. <i>arche</i>, from which is derived the word <i>architect</i>. Its literal meaning, according to Greek scholars, is <i>origin, active cause, source, uncreated principle</i>. So Jesus is the <i>architect</i>, or <i>Creator </i>of the Universe, as Cl 1:16-17 make clear (and see entry immediately above). He was in the <i>beginning </i>(<i>arche</i>) with God the Father (Jn 1:2; Hb 1:10). He created all things, and is before all things, so He Himself cannot possibly be a <i>thing</i> (i.e., a created entity). In Rev 1:8 (often rendered <i>Alpha</i>) and 21:6 (cf. Is 41:4; 44:6; 48:12) <i>arche</i> is applied to <i>the Lord God, the Almighty </i>(God the Father), so it can't possibly mean <i>created being</i>, as Arian-influenced sects maintain. Similar terminology (<i>first and last, Alpha and Omega</i>) is applied to Jesus in Rv 1:17-18; 2:8; 3:14, and 22:13,16. Thus, both Father and Son are God. Scripture teaches the Holy Trinity: the one God exists eternally in three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b>In my flesh I complete what is lacking . . .: </b>This is the most striking example in Scripture of what Catholics call <i>redemptive suffering</i> or <i>vicarious atonement</i>, whereby the sufferings of a Christian, as <i>fellow workers</i> with God (1Co 3:9) can be applied - like prayer or fasting or evangelism - to the benefit of another, either on earth, or in purgatory (2Mc 12:39-45 with 1Cor 15:29; CCC 1032). Our sufferings (Mt 16:24) can be literally offered up to God (Rm 12:1), meritoriously and redemptively on behalf of others or ourselves. Explicit biblical indications of this teaching - much disputed by non-Catholic Christianity - are numerous (cf. Ex 32:30-32; Nm 16:46-48; 25:6-13; Rm 8:13,17; 1Co 12:24; 2Co 1:4-9; 4:10; Gl 2:20; Ep 3:13; Ph 2:17; 3:10; 2Tm 4:6; Hb 11:39-40; 1Jn 3:16). Paul even serves as a <i>co-redeemer</i> or <i>co-mediator</i> of God's grace, since he was a <i>steward</i> of grace and salvation (Ep 3:2; cf. 1Co 9:22) - precisely as Catholics teach concerning the Blessed Virgin Mary. He informed Timothy that he, too, could be a <i>savior</i> of sorts, for himself and his hearers (1Tm 4:16). All grace comes from God, but creatures have a share in its <i>dispensing</i> and <i>application</i>, in God's Providence (e.g., Rv 1:4). See related commentary for Ph 1:29; 3:10, and cross-references for <i>libation</i>, Ph 2:17; also CCC 307,618,1508,1521.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Chapter 2</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">1 For I want you to know how greatly I strive for you, and for those at La-odice'a, and for all who have not seen my face, 2 that their hearts may be encouraged as they are knit together in love, to have all the riches of assured understanding and the knowledge of God's mystery, of Christ, 3 in whom are hid all the treasures of <i>wisdom </i>and<i> knowledge</i>. 4 I say this in order that no one may delude you with beguiling speech. 5 For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the firmness of your faith in Christ. </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">6 As therefore you</span><i style="font-family: inherit;"> </i><span style="font-family: inherit;">received Christ Jesus the Lord, so live in him, 7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving. </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">8 See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to</span><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><i style="font-family: inherit;">human tradition</i><span style="font-family: inherit;">, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole</span><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><b style="font-family: inherit;">fulness of deity dwells bodily</b><span style="font-family: inherit;">, 10 and you have come to fulness of life in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; 12 and you were</span><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><b style="font-family: inherit;">buried with him in baptism</b><span style="font-family: inherit;">, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the</span><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><i style="font-family: inherit;">principalities and powers</i><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in him. </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a</span><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><b style="font-family: inherit;">sabbath</b><span style="font-family: inherit;">. 17 These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on self-abasement and</span><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><b style="font-family: inherit;">worship of angels</b><span style="font-family: inherit;">, taking his stand on visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;">20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the universe, why do you live as if you still belonged to the <i>world</i>? Why do you submit to regulations, 21 "Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch" 22 (referring to things which all perish as they are used), according to human precepts and doctrines? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting rigor of devotion and self-abasement and severity to the body, but they are of no value in checking the indulgence of the flesh.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i>wisdom: </i>Gr. <i>sophia: </i>Mt 13:54; Lk 2:40; 21:15; Ac 6:3,10; Rm 11:33; 1Co 1:17-24; 2:4-7; 3:19; Ep 1:8,17; 3:10; Cl 1:9,28; 3:16; Jm 1:5; 3:13,15,17; 2Pt 3:15</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i>knowledge: </i>Gr. <i>gnosis: </i>Lk 1:77; Rm 2:20; 11:33; 15:14; 1Co 1:5; 8:1,7,10-11; 12:8; 13:2,8; 14:6; 2Co 2:14; 4:6; 6:6; 8:7; 10:5; 11:6; Ep 3:19; Ph 3:8; 1Tm 6:20; 1Pt 3:7; 2Pt 1:5-6; 3:18</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i>human tradition: </i>cf. Mt 15:3,6; Mk 7:7-9,13; Ac 20:29-30; 1Pt 1:18; 1Jn 4:1-3 - in contrast to Apostolic, Christian Tradition, which is regarded entirely positively by the biblical writers. See commentary for Ph 1:4 ("Gospel")</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i>principalities and powers: </i>Rm 8:38; 1Co 15:24; Ep 1:21; 2:2; 3:10; 6:12; Cl 1:13,16; 2:10; Ti 3:1; 1Pt 3:22; Rv 13:4-5,7,12</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i>world: </i>Gr. <i>kosmos </i>(as world-system, hostile to God): Jn 1:10; 7:7; 8:23; 12:31; 14:27; 15:18-19; 16:11,33; 17:6,14,16,25; 18:36; Rm 3:6,19; 5:12; 12:2; 1Co 1:27-28; 2:6-12; 11:32; 2Co 5:19; 7:10; Gl 6:14; Hb 11:38; Jm 1:27; 4:4; 1Jn 3:13; 4:3-4; 5:4-5,18-19</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b>Fulness of deity dwells bodily: </b>(cf. Cl 1:19). This is a remarkable proof for the divinity of Christ. The Father and the Son are presented as fully and essentially in union (monotheism), yet the distinctiveness of Divine Persons (trinitarianism) is also evident. Jesus is fully God, yet God Who has taken on human flesh (the incarnation). Ph 2:6-8 offers a similar description of the incarnate God (cf. Jn 1:1,14; Ac 20:28; 1Tm 3:16). St. Augustine wrote:</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">The same One who is God is Man, not by a confusion of nature but by a unity of person . . . He that is the Son of God by being generated and who is coeternal always with the Father, - that same One begins to be Son of Man from the Virgin. And so too humanity is added to the Son's divinity; and yet, no quaternity of Persons results, but the Trinity remains (<i>Sermons</i>, 186, 1).</span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b>Buried with him in baptism: </b>St. Paul here connects baptism - which regenerates - with justification. This is a common teaching of Holy Scripture - though denied by many Christians. Ac 2:38 speaks of being baptized <i>for the forgiveness of your sins</i>. 1 Pt 3:21 says <i>baptism . . . now</i> <i>saves</i> <i>you</i> (cf. Mk 16:16; Rm 6:1-6). Paul recalls how Ananias told him to be <i>baptized, and</i> <i>wash away</i> <i>your sins </i>(Ac 22:16). In 1Co 6:11 the Apostle seems to imply an organic connection between baptism (<i>washed</i>), sanctification, and justification. Ti 3:5 informs us that <i>he saved us, . . . by the washing of regeneration </i>(cf. Mt 28:19; Jn 3:5; Gl 3:26-27; Ep 4:5; 5:26; Hb 10:22; 1Pt 3:20).Cl 2:11-13 also establishes a connection between baptism and <i>circumcision</i>. Israel was the church before Christ (cf. Ac 7:38; Rm 9:4). Circumcision, given to 8-day old boys, was the seal of the <i>covenant </i>God made with Abraham, which applies to us also (Gl 3:14,29). It was a sign of repentance and future faith (Rm 4:11). Infants were just as much a part of the covenant as adults (cf. Gn 17:7; Dt 29:10-12; also Mt 19:14). Likewise, baptism is the <i>seal </i>of the <i>New Covenant</i> in Christ. It signifies cleansing from sin, just as circumcision did (cf. Dt 10:16; 30:6; Jr 4:4; 9:25; Rm 2:28-9; Ph 3:3). Infants are wholly saved by God's grace just as adults are, only apart from their <i>rational and willful consent </i>(see, e.g., Mk 2:1-6; 1Co 7:12-14). Their parents act in their behalf. Infant baptism is taught by Scripture (cf. Ac 16:15,33; 18:8 with 11:14; 1Co 1:16). See CCC 405,628,683,977-978,1113,1210-1213,1220,1250-1252,1263-1270,1992</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b>Sabbath: </b>(cf. similar texts about excessive legalism with regard to observance of days: Gl 4:9-11; Rm 13:8-10; 14:4-13). Cl 2:12-17 is a disproof of the belief of some that Christians ought to observe Saturday as <i>the Sabbath / Lord's Day </i>(Rv 1:10). From the beginning, Christians met and worshiped on Sunday, due to the Resurrection of Christ (cf. Ac 20:7; 1Co 16:1-2; vast patristic testimony: e.g., <i>Didache </i>14; St. Ignatius, <i>Magn</i> 9:1; St. Justin Martyr, <i>Apol </i>1:67; CCC 2168-2175,2190).</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b>Worship of angels:</b>The Bible forbids all creature worship (cf. Ac 10:25-26; 14:11-15; Rv 19:10; 22:8-9). God alone is to be worshiped (cf. Nh 9:6; Mt 4:10; Lk 4:8; Rv 4:9-11). Jesus - being God - often receives (and fully accepts) worship in the NT (cf. Mt 8:2; 9:18; 14:33; 15:25; 20:20; 28:9,17; Mk 5:6; Lk 24:52; Jn 5:23; 9:38; 20:28). The Apostles also teach that Jesus is to be worshiped (cf. Ph 2:9-11; Hb 1:6; Rv 5:8,12-14; 7:9-12,15-17).</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Chapter 3</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">1 If then you have been <i>raised with Christ</i>, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the <i>right hand of God</i>. 2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. 3 For <i>you have died</i>, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming. 7 In these you once walked, when you lived in them. 8 But now put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and foul talk from your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the</span><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><i style="font-family: inherit;">old nature</i><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">with its practices 10 and have put on the</span><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><i style="font-family: inherit;">new nature</i><span style="font-family: inherit;">, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. 11 Here there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scyth'ian, slave, free man, but Christ is all, and in all. </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassion, kindness, lowliness, meekness, and patience, 13 forbearing one another and, if one has a complaint against another,</span><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><b style="font-family: inherit;">forgiving each other</b><span style="font-family: inherit;">; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. 14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. 15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in the one body. And be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teach and admonish one another in all wisdom, and sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him. </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">18</span><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><b style="font-family: inherit;">Wives, be subject to your husbands</b><span style="font-family: inherit;">, as is fitting in the Lord. 19 Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them. 20 Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord. 21 Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged. 22 Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in singleness of heart, fearing the Lord. 23 Whatever your task, work heartily, as serving the Lord and not men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the</span><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><i style="font-family: inherit;">inheritance</i><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">as your</span><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><i style="font-family: inherit;">reward</i><span style="font-family: inherit;">; you are serving the Lord Christ. 25 For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i>raised with Christ:</i> Mt 10:8; 22:31; 27:52; Mk 12:26-27; Lk 10:27; 20:36; Jn 5:21,29; 11:24-25; Ac 23:6,8; 24:15,21; 26:8; Rm 6:5,8-11; 8:11; 1Co 6:14; 15:12-13,21,29-52; 2Co 1:9; 4:14; Ep 2:6; Ph 3:10-11; Cl 2:12; Hb 6:2; 11:19,35; Jm 5:15; Rv 20:5-6</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i>right hand of God: </i>Ex 15:6,12; Ps 16:11; 48:10; 60:5; 63:8; 98:1; 110:1,5; 118:15-16; Is 41:10; 62:8; Mt 19:28; 22:44; 25:31; 26:64; Mk 14:62; 16:19; Lk 22:69; Ac 2:33-34; 5:31; 7:55-56; Rm 8:34; Ep 1:20; Hb 1:3,8,13; 8:1; 10:12; 12:2; 1Pt 3:22; Rv 5:1-14; 7:17; 22:1-4</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i>you have died </i>(i.e., spiritual or metaphorical death)<i>: </i>Rm 5:15; 6:2,8,13,16,21,23; 7:4,6,9-10,13,24; 8:2,6,13; 1Co 15:22,31; 2Co 5:14; Gl 2:19; Cl 2:20; 2Tm 2:11; Rv 2:11; 20:6,14; 21:8</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i>old nature: </i>Mk 2:21-22; Jn 8:44; Rm 5:12-14; 6:6; 7:5-6,8-11,14-25; 8:5-8,19-23; 1Co 5:7-8; 15:53; Ep 2:3; 4:22; 2Co 4:16</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i>new nature: </i>Ez 11:19; 18:31; Mk 14:25; Lk 5:36-39;<i> </i>Jn 3:3; Rm 6:4; 7:6; 8:1-17,21,23,29-30; 12:2; 13:14; 1Co 5:7;<i> </i>2Co 3:3,18; 4:16; 5:17; Gl 6:15; Ep 2:15; 4:23-24; 6:11; Hb 8:10; 9:15; 10:20; 1Pt 1:3; 2Pt 1:4; 1Jn 3:2</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i>inheritance: </i>Mt 5:5; 19:29; 25:34; Mk 10:17; Lk 10:25; 18:18; Ac 20:32; Rm 8:17; 1Co 6:9-10; 15:50; Gl 3:18,29; 4:7; 5:21; Ep 1:11,14,18; 5:5; Cl 1:12; Ti 3:7; Hb 1:14; 6:12,17; 9:15; 11:7; Jm 2:5; 1Pt 1:4; Rv 21:7</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i>reward: </i>Mt 5:12; Lk 6:23,35; Hb 11:26; 2Jo 8; Rv 22:12</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b>Forgiving each other: </b>Forgiveness is, of course, a distinguishing characteristic of the Christian life. We are to lovingly forgive others (cf. Mt 5:24; 6:12-15; 18:21 ff.; 18:35; Mk 11:25; Lk 6:37; 17:4; 2Co 2:7,10; Ep 4:32), because God has forgiven us (cf. Mt 6:14-15; 9:6; Mk 2:7,10; Ac 10:43; 13:38; Rm 5:10-11; 2Co 5:18-19; Ep 1:7; 4:32; Cl 1:14,20,22; Hb 9:22; Jm 5:15). The recipient must <i>repent</i>, however, in order to ask for, and obtain true forgiveness, which is not absolutely unconditional, as many falsely teach (cf. Mt 3:11; 11:21; 12:41; Mk 1:4,15; 6:12; Lk 3:3; 5:32; 13:3,5; 17:3-4; 24:47; Ac 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 8:22; 11:18; 13:24; 14:15; 17:30; 19:4; 20:21; 26:18,20; Rm 2:4; 2Co 5:20; 7:9-10; 12:21; 1Th 1:9; 2Tm 2:19,25; Hb 6:1,4; 1Pt 3:11; Rv 2:5,16,21-22; 3:3,19; 9:20-21). True repentance is a heartfelt acknowledgement of one's sin (Lk 7:36-50; 15:7), a firm resolve to try to do better (Mt 3:8; Lk 3:8; 22:32; Ac 26:20), and a determination to cease engaging in that sin (Jn 5:14; 8:11; Gl 4:9; Cl 1:21-23; 2Pt 2:21). Our <i>willingness</i> to mercifully forgive anyone who repents and asks for forgiveness ought to be unconditional. The Catholic notion of priestly absolution is grounded in Holy Scripture (cf. Mt 16:19; 18:18; Lk 24:47; Jn 20:21-23; 2Co 2:5-11; Jm 5:15). The <i>unforgivable sin </i>or <i>sin against the Holy Spirit</i> is a rejection of God's offer of salvation (cf. Mt 12:31-32; Mk 3:28-29; Lk 12:10). This provides further evidence that even God cannot and will not forgive a person who doesn't repent and <i>accept</i> the forgiveness (in this case, salvation itself - see 2Pt 3:9). For to forgive everyone unconditionally would reduce to <i>universalism</i>, whereby everyone is saved, with no one being consigned to hell - itself a most unbiblical doctrine (see commentary for Ph 1:28).</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b>Wives, be subject to your husbands: </b>In his Apostolic Letter <i>On the Dignity and Vocation of Women</i> (1988), Pope John Paul II wrote:</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i>Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife</i> (Eph 5:22-23) . . . to be understood and carried out in a new way: as a <i>mutual subjection out of reverence for Christ</i> (cf. Eph 5:21). This is especially true because the husband is called the <i>head</i> of the wife <i>as</i> Christ is the head of the Church; he is so in order to give <i>himself up for her</i> (Eph 5:25) (section 24).</span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i>The greatest among you will be your servant</i> (Mt 23:11; cf. Ep 5:28-31). The highest of God's created beings, according to Catholicism, is a woman (the Blessed Virgin Mary), and a woman - Mary Magdalene - first saw the risen Jesus (Jn 20:11-18). Wives are equal to husbands in the same way that Jesus is equal to the Father (Jn 10:30; Cl 2:9), even though in subjection to Him (Ph 2:5-8). Analogously, marriage, by nature, creates <span style="color: black;">a spiritual oneness (Mt 19:5-6) which nevertheless incorporates male headship and differential gender roles. <i>Masculinity</i> and <i>femininity</i> are ontological realities created by God, not human culture (cf. 1Co 11:3,7-9; 1 Tm 2:12-14; 1Pt 3:7), thus accounting for marriage roles and exclusively male ordination. Yet men and women are fundamentally equal, according to </span>St. Paul: <i>there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus</i> (Gl 3:28).</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Chapter 4</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">1 Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;">2 <b>Continue steadfastly in prayer</b>, being <i>watchful </i>in it with thanksgiving; 3 and pray for us also, that God may <i>open to us a door </i>for the word, to declare the <i>mystery </i>of Christ, on account of which I am in prison, 4 that I may make it clear, as I ought to speak. </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">5 Conduct yourselves wisely toward outsiders, making the most of the time. 6</span><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><i style="font-family: inherit;">Let your speech always be gracious</i><span style="font-family: inherit;">, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer</span><i style="font-family: inherit;"> </i><span style="font-family: inherit;">every one. </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">7 Tych'icus will tell you all about my affairs; he is a beloved brother and faithful minister and fellow servant in the Lord. 8 I have sent him to you for this very purpose, that you may know how we are and that he may encourage your hearts, 9 and with him Ones'imus, the faithful and beloved brother, who is one of yourselves. They will tell you of everything that has taken place here. </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">10 Aristar'chus my fellow prisoner greets you, and Mark the cousin of Barnabas (concerning whom you have received instructions--if he comes to you, receive him), 11 and Jesus who is called Justus. These are the only men of the circumcision among my fellow workers for the kingdom of God, and they have been a comfort to me. 12 Ep'aphras, who is one of yourselves, a servant of Christ Jesus, greets you, always remembering you earnestly in his prayers, that you may stand mature and fully</span><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><i style="font-family: inherit;">assured </i><span style="font-family: inherit;">in all the</span><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><b style="font-family: inherit;">will of God</b><span style="font-family: inherit;">. 13 For I bear him witness that he has worked hard for you and for those in La-odice'a and in Hi-erap'olis. 14 Luke the beloved physician and Demas greet you. 15 Give my greetings to the brethren at La-odice'a, and to Nympha and the church in her house. 16 And when this letter has been read among you, have it read also in the church of the La-odice'ans; and see that you read also the letter from La-odice'a. 17 And say to Archip'pus, "See that you fulfil the</span><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><i style="font-family: inherit;">ministry</i><span style="font-family: inherit;"> </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">which you have received in the Lord." </span><span style="font-family: inherit;">18 I, Paul, write this greeting with my own hand. Remember my fetters. Grace be with you.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i>watchful: </i>Mt 24:42-43; 25:13; Lk 12:37; Ac 20:31; 1Co 10:12; 16:13; 1Th 5:6; 1Pt 5:8; Rv 3:2-3; 16:15</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i>open to us a door: </i>Ac 14:27; 1Co 16:9; 2Co 2:12; Rv 3:8</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i>mystery: </i>Mt 13:11; Mk 4:11; Lk 8:10; Rm 11:25; 16:25; 1Co 2:7; 4:1; 13:2; 14:2; 15:51; Ep 1:9; 3:3-4,9; 5:32; 6:19; Cl 1:26-27; 2:2; 2Th 2:7; 1Tm 3:9,16; Rv 1:20; 10:7; 17:5,7</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i>Let your speech always be gracious: </i>Jb 27:4; Ps 19:14; 39:1; 141:3; Pr 10:11; 15:26; 21:23; 22:11; 31:26; Ec 10:12; Mt 5:22; 12:34-37; Lk 4:22; 6:45; 1Co 13:1; 16:10; Ep 4:29-31; 5:4; Ph 1:27; 2Tm 2:14; Ti 3:2; Jm 1:19,26; 3:2,5-10; 4:11; 1Pt 2:1,12; 3:9-10,15-16; Rv 14:5</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i>assured: </i>Jn 14:20; 15:11; 16:24; Ac 2:28; Rm 2:18; 8:16,28,38-39; 15:13-14; 2Co 7:4; Ep 1:18; 3:12,19; Cl 2:2,10; 1Th 1:4-5; 2Tm 1:12; Hb 6:11,19; 10:22; 11:1; 1Jn 3:2,14,19,24; 4:18; 5:13</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><i>ministry:</i> Gr. <i>diakonia: </i>Ac 1:17,25; 6:1,4; 12:25; 20:24; 21:19; 1Co 12:5; 16:15; 2Co 3:6; 4:1; 5:18; 6:3-4; Ep 3:7; 4:12; Cl 1:7,23,25; 1Th 3:2; 1Tm 1:12; 2Tm 4:5,11</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b>Continue steadfastly in prayer: </b>(cf. 1Ch 16:11; 2Ch 7:14; Ps 5:1-3; 27:8; 109:4; 116:2; Mt 7:7-8; 21:22; Lk 2:37; 11:1-13; 18:1; 21:36; Jn 14:13-14; Ac 2:46-47; 6:4; 10:2; 12:2; Rm 1:9; 12:12; Ep 1:15-16; 6:18; Ph 4:6; Cl 1:9; 1Th 3:10; 5:17; 1Tm 2:8; 5:5; 2Tm 1:3; Hb 4:16; 10:25; Jm 5:16; CCC 2564-2565,2592,2607,2612,2621,2659-2669, 2725,2738-2745,2752,2779-2802). Venerable John Henry Cardinal Newman, in his sermon <i>The Daily Service</i> (1836), exclaimed, with typically magnificent eloquence:</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Stated and continual prayer, then, and especially united prayer, is plainly the duty of Christians. And if we ask how often we are to pray, I reply, that we ought to consider prayer as a plain privilege, directly we know that it is a duty, and therefore that the question is out of place . . . When thoughts such as these are set before the multitude of men, they appear to some of them strained and unnatural; to others, formal, severe, and tending to bondage. So must it be. Christ's commands will seem to be a servitude, and His privileges will be strange, till we act upon the one and embrace the other. To those who come in faith, to receive and to obey, who, instead of standing at a distance, reasoning, criticising, investigating, adjusting, hear His voice and follow Him, not knowing whither they go; who throw themelves, their hearts and wills, their opinions and conduct, into His Divine System with a noble boldness, and serve Him on a venture, without experience of results, or skill to defend their own confidence by argument: who, when He says 'Pray,' 'Continue in prayer,' take His words simply, and forthwith pray, and that instantly; these men, through His great mercy and the power of the Holy Ghost working in them, will at length find persevering prayer, praise, and intercession, neither a bondage nor a barrenness . . . May He lead us on evermore in the narrow way, who is the One Aid of all that need, the Helper of all that flee to Him for succour, the Life of them that believe, and the Resurrection of the dead!</span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b>Will of God: </b>(cf. Mt 6:10; 7:21; 12:50; 26:42; Mk 3:35; Jn 5:30; Ac 21:14; 22:14; Rm 1:10; 2:18; 9:19; 12:2; 1Co 1:1; 2Co 1:1; 8:5; Gl 1:4; Ep 1:1,5,9,11; 5:17; 6:6; Ph 2:13; Cl 1:1,9; 1Th 4:3; 5:18; Hb 2:4; 10:7-10; 1Pt 2:15; 3:17; 4:2,19; 1Jn 2:17; 5:14; CCC 2611).</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Men do not take for the object towards which they act, God's will, but certain maxims, rules, or measures, right perhaps as far as they go, but defective because they admit of being subjected to certain other ultimate ends, which are not religious. Men are just, honest, upright, trustworthy; but all this not from the love and fear of God, but from a mere feeling of obligation to be so, and in subjection to certain worldly objects (Ven. John Henry Cardinal Newman: sermon <i>Obedience Without Love</i>, 1838).</span></blockquote>
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Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-68657394669304338032015-07-06T13:54:00.000-04:002015-07-29T14:06:43.604-04:00Refutation of Dr. John MacArthur's Sola Scriptura Defense: "The Sufficiency of the Written Word"<center>
By Dave Armstrong (15 September 2003)</center>
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: -1;">Dr. John MacArthur is an influential and well-known radio preacher, Bible expositor, and author, well-worth listening to (until he gets to the subject of Catholicism . . . ). I will quote a great deal of his article, but not all (unlike Mr. Bennett's piece, which was reproduced in its entirety). Dr. MacArthur's words will be in <span style="color: blue;">blue</span><span style="color: red;">.</span> The subtitles are his own (in <span style="color: #990000;">brown</span>).</span> </span></center>
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<span style="font-size: 20.7999992370605px;"><span style="color: #660000; font-family: inherit;">Teaching as Doctrines the Precepts of Men </span></span></center>
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">. . . The Jews of Jesus' day also placed tradition on an equal footing with Scripture. Rather, in effect, they made tradition superior to Scripture, because Scripture was interpreted by tradition and therefore made subject to it.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">It doesn't follow that because interpretation exists, therefore, Scripture is "subject to it," in the sense that it is somehow lesser or inferior. That is simply an unbiblical and false Protestant dichotomy (one of many). Interpretation <i>must</i> exist because that is simply the reality with regard to all written documents: even inspired ones. This is presupposed in Scripture itself (RSV):</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">. . . no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation . . .</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;">(2 Peter 1:20)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;">. . . Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him . . . in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their destruction.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: -1;">(2 Peter 3:15-16)</span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">In Nehemiah 8:1-8, we find that Ezra reads the law of Moses to the people in Jerusalem (8:3). In 8:7 we find thirteen Levites who assisted Ezra, and <i>who helped the people to understand the law</i>. Much earlier, in King Jehoshaphat's reign, we find Levites exercising the same function (2 Chronicles 17:8-9). There is no <i>sola Scriptura</i>, with its associated idea "perspicuity" (evident clearness in the main) here. In Nehemiah 8:8: . . . <i>they read from the book, from the law of God, clearly</i> [footnote, "or with interpretation"], <i>and they gave the sense, so that the people understood the reading</i>. So the people did indeed understand the law (8:12), but not without much assistance - not merely upon hearing.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">Whenever tradition is elevated to such a high level of authority, it inevitably becomes detrimental to the authority of Scripture.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">This doesn't follow, either. To say that supremely authoritative Scripture has to be interpreted is not to denigrate it in the slightest. Many Protestant scholars have pointed out that the Catholic Church's regard for Scripture is in no wise inferior to that of evangelical Protestantism:</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: -1;">Roman Catholicism has a high regard for Scripture as a source of knowledge . . . Indeed, official Roman Catholic statements concerning the inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture would satisfy the most rigorous Protestant fundamentalist.</span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">(Robert McAfee Brown, <i>The Spirit of Protestantism</i>, Oxford: Oxford Univ. Press, 1961, 172-173)</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: -1;">There was never a time in the history of the western Church during the 'Dark' or 'Middle' Ages when the Scriptures were officially demoted. On the contrary, they were considered infallible and inerrant, and were held in the highest honour.</span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">(Peter Toon, <i>Protestants and Catholics</i>, Ann Arbor, MI: Servant Books, 1983, 39)</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: -1;">After quoting 19 eminent Church Fathers to the effect that Scripture is infallible and held in the</span><br /><span style="font-size: -1;">highest regard (bolstering his own thesis in this book), and citing all sorts of examples of Protestant denominations lowering their view of biblical infallibility and inerrancy, Harold Lindsell, former editor of <i>Christianity Today </i>and well-known evangelical scholar, has this to say about the Catholic reverence for Scripture:</span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: -1;">The view expressed by Augustine was the view the Roman Catholic Church believed, taught, and propagated through the centuries . . . It can be said that the Roman church for more than a thousand years accepted the doctrine of infallibility of all Scripture . . . The church has always (via Fathers, theologians, and popes) taught biblical inerrancy . . . The Roman church held to a view of Scripture that was no different from that held by the Reformers.</span></blockquote>
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<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: -1;">(<i>The Battle For the Bible</i>, Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1976, 54-56)</span></blockquote>
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">Jesus made this very point when he confronted the Jewish leaders. He showed that in many cases their traditions actually nullified Scripture. He therefore rebuked them in the harshest terms:</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">"Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, 'This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far away from Me. But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men."</span><br />
<span style="color: blue;">"Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men." He was also saying to them, "You nicely set aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him be put to death'; but you say, 'If a man says to his father or his mother, anything of mine you might have been helped by is Corban (that is to say, given to God),' you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother, thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that (Mark 7:6 - 13).</span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">A half-truth is little better than a lie. Protestant defenders are always presenting these passages where unbiblical traditions of men are condemned, and then making out that this is the biblical and apostolic view of <i>all notions of tradition whatsoever</i>. In other words, for them, Tradition is a "dirty word." This is manifestly false, as I have shown by many many Scriptural proofs in Section III above. To be fair to Dr. MacArthur, he later deals with some of the verses about "tradition" that Catholics present, but he misinterprets them, as I will show.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">It was inexcusable that tradition would be elevated to the level of Scripture in Judaism, because when God gave the law to Moses, it was in written form for a reason: to make it permanent and inviolable. The Lord made very plain that the truth He was revealing was not to be tampered with, augmented, or diminished in any way. His Word was the final authority in all matters: "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you" (Deuteronomy 4:2). They were to observe His commandments assiduously, and neither supplement nor abrogate them by any other kind of "authority": "Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it" (Deuteronomy 12:32).</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">This was dealt with at length in the refutation of Richart Bennett: following the written word does not automatically rule out an oral tradition.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">So the revealed Word of God, and nothing else, was the supreme and sole authority in Judaism. This alone was the standard of truth delivered to them by God Himself. Moses was instructed to write down the very words God gave him (Exodus 34:27), and that written record of God's Word became the basis for God's covenant with the nation (Exodus 24:4, 7). The written Word was placed in the Ark of the Covenant (Deuteronomy 31:9), symbolizing its supreme authority in the lives and the worship of the Jews forever. God even told Moses' successor, Joshua: "Be strong and very courageous; be careful to do according to all the law which Moses My servant commanded you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, so that you may have success wherever you go. This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night., so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it" Joshua 1:7 - 8).</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">This is patently untrue, and was dealt with in my similar refutation of Dr. Richard Bennett.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">Of course, other books of inspired Scripture beside those written by Moses were later added to the Jewish canon - but this was a prerogative reserved by God alone. Sola Scriptura was therefore established in principle with the giving of the law. No tradition passed down by word of mouth, no rabbinical opinion, and no priestly innovation was to be accorded authority equal to the revealed Word of God as recorded in Scripture.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Then why did Jesus appeal to authoritative oral and/or non-biblical written Jewish traditions? Either our Lord Jesus was right or Dr. MacArthur is. They can't both be right. I rather prefer Jesus, if I must make a choice between the two . . .</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">Agur understood this principle: "Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words lest He reprove you, and you be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:5 - 6).</span><br />
<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">The Scriptures therefore were to be the one standard by which everyone who claimed to speak for God was tested: "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" (Isaiah 8:20, KJV).</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">The Old Testament itself and the conclusions of Old Testament scholars lead to an understanding that the ancient Jews did <i>not </i>believe in <i>sola Scriptura</i>, so it is foolish to appeal to the Old Testament as "proof" that they did, or that this is the biblical position.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">In short, tradition had no legitimate place of authority in the worship of Jehovah. Everything was to be tested by the Word of God as recorded in the Scriptures.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Tradition can be in harmony with the written word, which is the possibility that Dr. MacArthur either doesn't realize, or won't allow because of preconceived notions which won't allow this.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">That's why Jesus' rebuke to the scribes and Pharisees was so harsh. Their very faith in Rabbinical tradition was in and of itself a serious transgression of the covenant and commandments of God (cf. Matthew 15:3).</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Insofar as they transgressed true tradition, yes. But that is not the whole "ball of wax." One who loves Holy Scripture won't ignore or "sweep under the rug" certain portions of it (ones I have detailed above).</span><br />
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<span style="font-size: 20.7999992370605px;"><span style="color: #660000; font-family: inherit;">The Rise and Ruin of Catholic Tradition</span></span></center>
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">Unfortunately, Christianity has often followed the same tragic road as paganism and Judaism in its tendency to elevate tradition to a position of authority equal to or greater than Scripture. The Catholic Church in particular has its own body of tradition that functions exactly like the Jewish Talmud: it is the standard by which Scripture is to be interpreted. In effect, tradition supplants the voice of Scripture itself.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">No evidence is given for such a wild assertion. It is merely anti-Catholic cynicism and prejudice. Dr. MacArthur can't even accurately detail what <i>Scripture </i>says in the first place about tradition. He gives us only a small portion of that (not coincidentally the verses where false traditions of men are being condemned). Now he goes on to make false and unsubstantiated claims about the Catholic Church.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">How did this happen? As James White has demonstrated in his chapter on "Sola Scriptura and the Early Church," the earliest church Fathers placed a strong emphasis on the authority of Scripture over verbal tradition. Fierce debates raged in the early church over such crucial matters as the deity of Christ, His two natures, the Trinity, and the doctrine of original sin. Early church councils settled those questions by appealing to Scripture as the highest of all authorities. The councils themselves did not merely issue ex cathedra decrees, but they reasoned things out by Scripture and made their rulings accordingly. The authority was in the appeal to Scripture, not in the councils per se.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: -1;">Of course the Fathers appealed to Scripture as supreme authority in doctrinal matters (so do Catholics; it is the overwhelming emphasis of my own apologetic and evangelistic ministry). But the Fathers did not believe in <i>sola Scriptura</i>, which is a different thing. Dr. MacArthur is seriously mistaken.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">Unfortunately, the question of Scriptural authority itself was not always clearly delineated in the early church, and as the church grew in power and influence, church leaders began to assert an authority that had no basis in Scripture.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">That's an unproven assumption, as are many remarks following, which I will delete for the sake of space. What is "biblical" or not, or consistent with Holy Scripture or not has to be established in lengthy discussions on each particular topic.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">Tradition, according to Roman Catholicism, is therefore as much "the Word of God" as Scripture.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">That is what the Bible itself clearly teaches, as I've conclusively shown many times.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">So in effect, tradition is not only made equal to Scripture, but it becomes the true Scripture, written not in documents, but mystically within the Church herself. And when the Church speaks, her voice is heard as if it were the voice of God, giving the only true meaning to the words of the "documents and records." Thus tradition utterly supplants and supersedes Scripture.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">How, then, does Dr. MacArthur deal with the Council of Jerusalem, where the Holy Spirit led the delegates to pronounce an authoritative interpretation, which Paul, Timothy, and Silas then went out and preached in many cities (see Section III above). Was that an instance in which the very apostles themselves "supplanted and superseded Scripture"?</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">In other words, the official Catholic position on Scripture is that Scripture does not and cannot speak for itself. It must be interpreted by the Church's teaching authority and in light of "living tradition."</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: -1;">The Bible itself teaches that, as shown repeatedly. We are not saying that the Bible is radically unclear (we believe it is more often than not clear, and materially sufficient as well); only that men will, in fact, disagree on its interpretation (for whatever reason); thus making some form of authoritative interpretation necessary. The Bible is not clear or "perspicuous" <i>enough </i>to render unnecessary such authority. Nothing illustrates this point better than the history of Protestantism itself.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">De facto this says that Scripture has no inherent authority, but like all spiritual truth, it derives its authority from the Church.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">That doesn't follow at all, logically, and is a gross distortion of our position. It is not a matter of whether or not Holy Scripture possesses authority. It certainly does (and inherently, intrinsically so), as it is inspired, "God-breathed" revelation. The only question is how to best <i>interpret </i>what is not self-evidently clear, simply by virtue of its existence (if it <i>were </i>that clear, then we wouldn't have all the divergent interpretations of its teachings, even between Protestants, who supposedly all accept <i>sola Scriptura</i> and perspicuity of Scripture).</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Furthermore, the Bible itself gives authority to both Church and Tradition, as shown over and over in the refutation of Mr. Bennett. So the authority of those entities <i>is</i> the biblical position. Dr. MacArthur, on the other hand, is neglecting a vast area of relevant biblical passages, and instead misrepresents and caricatures the Catholic position (probably not deliberately, but it is still equally false and slanderous and unfair).</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">Only what the Church says is deemed the true Word of God, the "Sacred Scripture... written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records." This position obviously emasculates Scripture. That is why the Catholic stance against Sola Scriptura has always posed a major problem for Roman Catholic apologists. On one hand faced with the task of defending Catholic doctrine, and on the other hand desiring to affirm what Scripture says about itself, they find themselves on the horns of a dilemma. They cannot affirm the authority of Scripture apart from the caveat that tradition is necessary to explain the Bible's true meaning. Quite plainly, that makes tradition a superior authority. Moreover, in effect it renders Scripture superfluous, for if Catholic tradition inerrantly encompasses and explains all the truth of Scripture, then the Bible is simply redundant. Understandably, sola Scriptura has therefore always been a highly effective argument for defenders of the Reformation.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">I've been doing Catholic apologetics for thirteen years now, and have a published book and many published articles (in books and magazines) and one of the three most-visited Catholic apologetics websites on the Internet, according to Alexa Web Search. I've discussed this issue with Protestants dozens of times. I've probably written more on this than on any other topic. I can testify that I haven't had the <i>slightest </i>problem refuting <i>sola Scriptura</i> and defending the Catholic position on Bible, Church, and Tradition.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">The reader can see plainly in this very paper how much Scripture Protestant polemicists are ignoring. I've debated people on this matter who had Master's degrees specializing in <i>sola Scriptura</i> (Carmen Bryant, James White), or who edited books like the revised <i>Treasury of Scripture Knowledge</i> (Jerome Smith), or who have written whole books on the subject (James White). They simply ignore many of the biblical passages that can be brought to bear. Nor have they ever proven that the Bible itself teaches <i>sola Scriptura</i>. I've yet to see it. I contend that it cannot be done; period.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Furthermore, Protestant apologists and defenders of <i>sola Scriptura</i> can't show that the Fathers believed anything like this. In my recent dialogue with Jason Engwer (cited and linked above), I was critiquing his claim that the Fathers believed in <i>sola Scriptura</i>. I set out to show how ten Fathers (as representative examples) did not in fact believe this - with copious documentation. Mr. Engwer was apparently not very confident in his own thesis, seeing that he departed the discussion (a public one on the large Protestant CARM Discussion forum) after counter-replying to my arguments regarding only <i>four</i> of the ten Fathers I dealt with at length. Dr. MacArthur can wax triumphant if he likes, but the facts show otherwise. I will inform him and Mr. Bennett of this very paper, and the reader can follow my website to see if they ever respond. I can almost guarantee that neither one of them will, if past experience is any guide.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Now, if someone wishes to interpret that as the Protestant position concerning <i>sola Scriptura</i> being superior and the Catholic one inferior and supposedly reduced to special pleading and distorting the biblical facts, so be it. I think the Protestant silence of counter-argument speaks volumes. Perhaps other Catholic apologists have had a different experience, but that is mine. In fact, I would say that refuting <i>sola Scriptura </i>is one of the very easiest of my tasks as an apologist. It's a piece of cake; easy as pie. Every time I have dialogued on this topic, I come away even more amazed at the virtual nonexistence of the Protestant case, and the strength of the Catholic argument.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">In my own opinion, this is the biggest weakness in Protestant thought: the "Achilles' Heel," so to speak, because it is of such fundamental importance; so much is built upon it, and because the Bible can offer nothing whatsoever to conclusively establish this view. It is indeed an unbiblical "tradition of men" (which is supremely ironic and tragi-comic). It came out of nowhere in the 16th century and cannot be sustained from the Bible, no matter how futilely and desperately and quixotically someone tries to do so. There is literally <i>nothing</i> in the Bible which would even <i>suggest</i> (let alone "<i>prove</i>") <i>sola Scriptura</i>.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">So it is not hard to understand why in recent years Catholic apologists have attacked sola Scriptura with a vengeance. If they can topple this one doctrine, all the Reformers' other points fall with it.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Exactly; so much rests upon it, as I just stated (and I am answering as I read, so I didn't know Dr. MacArthur was about to state this). And this is why (I speculate, but with much firsthand knowledge) Protestant apologists are scared to death to deal with this topic in the depth it deserves, with a Catholic opponent. Too much is at stake. I think they sense this, so they avoid the topic like the plague (in terms of <i>seriously</i> debating it; <i>really</i> getting to the <i>bottom</i> of this issue), for fear of the consequences, should they be shown a more biblical and logical way.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">For under the Catholic system, whatever the Church says must be the standard by which to interpret all Scripture. Tradition is the "true" Scripture, written in the heart of the Church.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">It should be noted in passing that all Christian groups have some tradition, whether or not they outwardly deny this. <i>Sola Scriptura</i> is one such Protestant tradition (and not even a biblical one). Dr. MacArthur is a Calvinist. If he were to start interpreting certain Scriptures about falling away from grace and from the faith as literally suggesting something other than perseverance of the saints or eternal security, he would be suspect in the eyes of his Calvinist comrades, as a biblical exegete. He would not be allowed to interpret in such a way in his own circle of fellow Calvinist believers, <i>sola Scriptura </i>or no, perspicuity of Scripture or no, supremacy of conscience and private judgment or no. Thus, there is a limit and a barrier as to how far a Calvinist can go in interpreting Scripture.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">If a Lutheran (Missouri Synod) pastor started asserting that the Eucharist and baptism were purely symbolic, he would be in big trouble (as classic orthodox Lutheranism holds to the Real Presence - consubstantiation - and baptismal regeneration). If a Baptist pastor or theologian adopted a belief in infant baptism, he would be told that he doesn't see the clear evidence of Scripture for adult, believer's baptism, and would probably soon be out of a job. And so on and so forth. So the Catholic Church, too, has parameters and standards of orthodoxy (like everyone else) beyond which a Catholic is not allowed to go. There may be relatively <i>more</i> of these, granted, but the restrictions are not different <i>in kind </i>from any Protestant restrictions on dogma and hermeneutics and exegesis. All Christian groups do this. So it is foolish to chide only the Catholic Church for allowing only so much leeway in biblical hermeneutics.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Besides, it is a little-known fact that the Catholic Church has only required the interpretation of a mere <i>nine Bible verses</i> as absolutely binding. The Church is not (in effect) staring over every Catholic's shoulder as they read the Bible (that's much more likely to be true of the local pastor, in many Protestant denominations). To claim that it is doing so is to be exceedingly ignorant of the Catholic ethos and approach to theology and the Bible.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">The Church - not Scripture written in "documents and records" - defines the truth about justification by faith, veneration of saints, transubstantiation, and a host of other issues that divided the Reformers from Rome.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Dr. MacArthur simply assumes that "Reformed" doctrines are biblical and Catholic ones are not. But this begs the question. I've devoted my life's work to showing that the Catholic positions are eminently biblical and not anti-biblical at all, with my website, <i>Biblical Evidence for Catholicism</i>, and first book, <i>A Biblical Defense of Catholicism<a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20040619070941/http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ391.HTM">.</a></i> And why must Church be pitted against Scripture as if the two are unalterably opposed and cannot be synthesized? This is not the way that the Bible presents the relationship between the two, or between Scripture and Tradition. Why is it impermissible to believe (in faith) in a harmony between the three and a protection by the Holy Spirit from error?</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Protestants believe this about Scripture. Why cannot Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit can also protect God's apostolic deposit from error? In fact, the gift of ecclesial infallibility is <i>easier </i>to believe in faith than biblical inspiration, because it is only a negative protection against error, not a positive guarantee that every word in Scripture is "God-breathed."</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">To put it another way, if we accept the voice of the Church as infallibly correct, then what Scripture says about these questions is ultimately irrelevant.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">That doesn't follow at all, and is a gross distortion, if in fact (as Catholics believe) Scripture and Church teaching are harmonious, as just argued. Protestants simply assume that Catholic doctrines can't be harmonized with Scripture; therefore they conclude that there is a fundamental disconnect between the two, with Church authority or Tradition placed higher than the Scripture they supposedly contravene. But the premise remains to be proven. Most Protestants are also unaware of Catholic (and patristic) biblical arguments in favor of their doctrines.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">This statement is as fallacious as saying that the human proclamation of the canon of Scripture somehow undercuts the inspiration and inherent status of the books of the Bible. It does not; it is merely authoritatively proclaiming what already is true of its own accord (and this is precisely what the Catholic Church believes about the canon). That is the case with Church and Scripture. Scripture doesn't somehow become "irrelevant" merely because the Church says something about it. This is a ludicrous assertion . . .</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">And in practice this is precisely what happens. To cite but one example, Scripture very plainly says, "There is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5). Nonetheless, the Catholic Church insists that Mary is her Son's "co-mediatrix."</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">And in practice, most Protestants don't have a clue as to what this means, or the reasoning behind it. I have many papers explaining it and defending it from the Bible. Again, Dr. MacArthur assumes what he is ostensibly trying to prove. He pulls out an example that he knows will resonate with all Protestant readers, because they are probably least-familiar with Catholic Mariology, of all the Catholic distinctives. Then in effect he proclaims, "A-ha! See how radically unbiblical Catholicism is??!!" But he hasn't proven this; he has only asserted it. I understand that one can't prove every assumption on the spot, but the repeated use of this tactic among Protestant polemicists gets a bit annoying.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">And in the eyes of millions of Catholics, what the Church says is seen as the final and authoritative Word of God. First Timothy 2:5 is thus nullified by Church tradition.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Not if the Catholic belief on Mary in this regard is shown to be not at all at odds with many biblical indications . . . it is not explicitly biblical, but it is not at all contrary to biblical thought.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">Obviously, if Rome can prove her case against sola Scriptura, she overturns all the arguments for the Reformation in one fell swoop.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">I'm delighted to hear Dr. MacArthur state this. In fact, I think he goes <i>too</i> far. I wouldn't even argue this, but I would say that overturning the Protestant Rule of Faith would be a severe blow, which should cause Protestants to reconsider their system of belief and how it is arrived-at. Thus, the lack of substantive reply that I always receive when arguing this point is all the more alarming, and the consequences very serious for the Protestant position.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">If she can establish her tradition as an infallible authority, no mere biblical argument would have any effect against the dictates of the Church.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">We never regard our authority as in such a radical dichotomy or adversarial relationship with Holy Scripture, but rather, of a piece with it. This is a caricature of our position, and it does not follow at all from it.</span><br />
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<span style="font-size: 20.7999992370605px;"><span style="color: #660000; font-family: inherit;">The Sufficiency of Scripture</span></span></center>
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">First, it is necessary to understand what sola Scriptura does and does not assert. The Reformation principle of sola Scriptura has to do with the sufficiency of Scripture as our supreme authority in all spiritual matters. Sola Scriptura simply means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Catholics agree with the last sentence; that is what is called material sufficiency. We even agree with the sentence before it, as long as such authority is not pitted against Church and Tradition.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">It only means that everything necessary, everything binding on our consciences, and everything God requires of us is given to us in Scripture.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Since Scripture teaches us about an authoritative Church and Tradition, then those things, too, must be binding on Christians, as they are biblical, which alone can bind us, according to Protestantism. It's as if they cut off the limb they are sitting on.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">Scripture is therefore the perfect and only standard of spiritual truth, revealing infallibly all that we must believe in order to be saved, and all that we must do in order to glorify God. That - no more, no less - is what sola Scriptura means.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">This standard must be interpreted by human beings somewhere along the line (even Protestants have creeds and confessions, which presuppose interpretation).</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">So sola Scriptura simply means that Scripture is sufficient. The fact that Jesus did and taught many things not recorded in Scripture John 20:30; 21:25) is wholly irrelevant to the principle of sola Scriptura. The fact that most of the apostles' actual sermons in the early churches were not written down and preserved for us does not diminish the truth of biblical sufficiency one bit. What is certain is that all that is necessary is in Scripture - and we are forbidden "to exceed what is written" (1 Corinthians 4:6).</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">This has all been dealt with above (as has 2 Timothy 3:15-17, which is brought up next - as it always is). The Bible teaches that oral tradition is also authoritative, so Dr. MacArthur is simply wrong.</span><br />
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<span style="font-size: 20.7999992370605px;"><span style="color: #660000; font-family: inherit;">How Do We Know the Doctrine of the Apostles?</span></span></center>
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">Now let's examine the key Scriptures Rome cites to try to justify the existence of extrabiblical tradition. Since many of these passages are similar, it will suffice to reply to the main ones. First we'll examine the key verses that speak of how apostolic doctrine was transmitted, and then we'll explore what the apostle Paul meant when he spoke of "tradition."</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">2 Timothy 2:2: "The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, these entrust to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also." Here the apostle Paul instructs Timothy, a young pastor, to train other faithful men for the task of leadership in the church. There is no hint of apostolic succession in this verse, nor is there any suggestion that in training these men Timothy would be passing on to them an infallible tradition with authority equal to the Word of God. On the contrary, what this verse describes is simply the process of discipleship . . .</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Dr. MacArthur misses the point. This passage is (usually) not used as a proof of either apostolic succession or infallibility, but for the presence of authoritative oral tradition per se. Apostolic succession can be proven elsewhere in the Bible.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">What was this truth? It was not some undisclosed tradition, such as the Assumption of Mary, which would be either unheard of or disputed for centuries until a pope declared ex cathedra that it was truth. What Timothy was to hand on to other men was the same doctrine Paul had preached before "many witnesses." Paul was speaking of the gospel itself. It was the same message Paul commanded Timothy to preach, and it is the same message that is preserved in Scripture and sufficient to equip every man of God (2 Timothy 3:16 - 4:2).</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Precisely; I agree. And I have shown above (Section III) that <i>Tradition</i>, <i>Word of God</i>, and the <i>Gospel </i>are regarded as essentially identical in Scripture, and by Paul. There is no dichotomy. That is merely a Protestant fiction, or invention. Tradition can't be separated out; that would be like trying to separate hydrogen atoms from a water molecule.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">In short, this verse is wholly irrelevant to the Catholic claim that tradition received from the apostles is preserved infallibly by her bishops. Nothing in this verse suggests that the truth Timothy would teach other faithful men would be preserved without error from generation to generation.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">No one is arguing that; one has to be clear what is a proof or indication of what. Yet Dr. MacArthur would say that the Gospel was preserved infallibly. If, then, we can show that it is equated with "tradition" in the Bible (as I think I have done), then we have gone 90% of the way towards winning the "battle," if not all the way.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">That is indeed what Scripture says of itself: "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching" (2 Timothy 3:16), but no such assertion is ever made for tradition handed down orally.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Tradition is equated with the Word of God and the Gospel; therefore, this is said of tradition. See, e.g., verses like Jude 3 and Acts 2:42. More than just the Bible is being referred to.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">Like Timothy, we are to guard the truth that has been entrusted to us. But the only reliable canon, the only infallible doctrine, the only binding principles, and the only saving message, is the God-breathed truth of Scripture.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">This assumes what it is trying to prove, once again . . .</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">Acts 2:42: "They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer." This verse simply states that the early church followed the apostles' teaching as their rule of faith. Once again this passage says nothing about apostolic succession and contains no hint of a guarantee that "the apostles' teaching" would be infallibly preserved through any means other than Scripture.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">As the New Testament was not yet compiled at that point, this was clearly an oral tradition. As for infallibility, that would be deduced from passages like Matthew 16:18 and John 16:13 and Acts 15:28. One doesn't have to prove everything from one passage. Dr. MacArthur seems to assume that is the Catholic burden or outlook, and proceeds to tear down such a silly methodology. But it's a straw man in the first place. The Catholic biblical argument is a cumulative one, based on many strands of evidence from throughout Scripture.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">Note also that this verse describes the attitude of the earliest converts to Christianity. The "they" at the beginning of the verse refers back to verse 41 and the three thousand souls who were converted at Pentecost. These were for the most part rank-and-file lay people. And their one source of Christian doctrine (this was before any of the New Testament had been penned) was the oral teaching of the apostles.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Exactly. How that is an indication for <i>sola Scriptura</i> is beyond me.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">This verse is even more irrelevant to the question of infallible tradition than 2 Timothy 2:2. The only point it asserts that is remotely germane to the issue is that the source of authority for the early church was apostolic teaching. No one who holds to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura would dispute that point. Let it be stated as clearly as possible: Protestants do not deny that the oral teaching of the apostles was authoritative, inerrant truth, binding as a rule of faith on those who heard it. Moreover, if there were any promise in Scripture that the exact words or full sense of the apostolic message would be infallibly preserved through word of mouth by an unbroken succession of bishops, we would be bound to obey that tradition as a rule of faith.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">This is all well and good, as far as it goes, but where the Protestant goes wrong is to assume that nothing besides Scripture could ever have authority after Scripture was completed. That is overthrown by Jesus' own multiple appeals to non-biblical literature or oral traditions.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">Scripture, however, which is God-breathed, never speaks of any other God-breathed authority; it never authorizes us to view tradition on an equal or superior plane of authority; and while it makes the claim of inerrancy for itself, it never acknowledges any other infallible source of authority. Word-of-mouth tradition is never said to be theopneustos, God-breathed, or infallible.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">This is untrue, as has been shown in a variety of ways, in the Richard Bennett portion of this paper. I knew that these two men would ba making many of the same arguments, which is why I combined the refutation into one paper, to save a lot of re-writing.</span><br />
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<span style="font-size: 20.7999992370605px;"><span style="color: #660000; font-family: inherit;">What Tradition Did Paul Command Adherence To?</span></span></center>
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">We've already noted, however, that Catholic apologists claim they do see verses in Scripture that accord authority to tradition. Even non-Catholic versions of Scripture, speak of a certain "tradition" that is to be received and obeyed with unquestioning reverence.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">What of these verses? Protestants often find them difficult to explain, but in reality they make better arguments against the Catholic position than they do against sola Scriptura. Let's examine the main ones:</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">1 Corinthians 11:2: "Now I praise you because you remember me in everything, and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you." Those words of Paul to the Corinthians speak of tradition, do they not?</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: -1;">Yet as is often true, the meaning is plain when we look at the context. And examining the context, we discover this verse offers no support whatsoever for the Roman Catholic notion of infallible tradition.</span> </span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">First of all, the apostle is speaking not of traditions passed down to the Corinthians by someone else through word of mouth. This "tradition" is nothing other than doctrine the Corinthians had heard directly from Paul's own lips during his ministry in their church . . . In this case, however, it refers only to Paul's own preaching - not to someone else's report of what Paul taught . . .</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Why would Dr. MacArthur think he is disproving that Paul is referring to authoritative tradition merely by stating that Paul delivered it? It makes no sense. Whether Paul or anyone else delivered it has no bearing on what it <i>is</i>. Elsewhere, Paul speaks many times of doctrines which he received and is passing on. So if Dr. MacArthur's point is that this instance was not passed on (therefore, it isn't tradition), there are two other instances in Paul's writing to the Corinthians where he describes a tradition<i> </i>that he <i>recieved </i>(Greek, <i>paralambano</i>) and in turn<i> </i>passed on, or<i> delivered </i>(Greek, <i>paradidomi</i>) ; thus his argument in this regard collapses (RSV):</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">1 Corinthians 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread,</span><br />
<span style="color: black;">1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures,</span></blockquote>
<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">I Corinthians 11:2 . . . is nothing but Paul's exhortation to the Corinthians that they remember and obey his apostolic teaching. It reflects Paul's own personal struggle to protect and preserve the doctrinal tradition he had carefully established in Corinth. But again, there is no implication whatsoever that Paul expected this tradition to be infallibly preserved through any inspired means other than Scripture.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Paul assumes that it is binding and authoritative. Thus, it is reasonable to infer that he regarded it as infallible, lest he be commanding them to follow a mistaken doctrine. He writes, for example:</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: -1;">2 Thessalonians 3:14 If any one refuses to obey what we say in this letter, note that man, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.</span></blockquote>
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<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: -1;">Romans 16:17: . . . take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: -1;">opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them.</span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">Paul didn't write:</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: -1;">. . . . in opposition to the pretty-much, mostly, largely true but not infallible doctrine which you have been taught . . .</span></blockquote>
<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">2 Thessalonians 2:15: "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us." This is perhaps the favorite verse of Catholic apologists when they want to support the Catholic appeal to tradition, because the verse plainly delineates between the written word and oral "traditions."</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">Again the Greek word is paradosis. Clearly, the apostle is speaking of doctrine, and it is not to be disputed that the doctrine he has in mind is authoritative, inspired truth.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">So what is this inspired tradition that they received "by word of mouth"? Doesn't this verse rather clearly support the Catholic position?</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">No, it does not. Again, the context is essential to a clear understanding of what Paul was saying. The Thessalonians had evidently been misled by a forged letter, supposedly from the apostle Paul, telling them that the day of the Lord had already come (2 Thessalonians 2:2).</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">The entire church had apparently been upset by this, and the apostle Paul was eager to encourage them. For one thing, he wanted to warn them not to be taken in by phony "inspired truth." And so he told them clearly how to recognize a genuine epistle from him - it would be signed in his own handwriting: "I, Paul, write this greeting with my own hand, and this is a distinguishing mark in every letter; this is the way I write" (3:17). He wanted to ensure that they would not be fooled again by forged epistles.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">But even more important, he wanted them to stand fast in the teaching they had already received from him. He had already told them, for example, that the day of the Lord would be preceded by a falling away, and the unveiling of the man of lawlessness. "Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?" 2:5). There was no excuse for them to be troubled by a phony letter, for they had heard the actual truth from his own mouth already.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">Now, no one - even the most impassioned champion of sola Scriptura - would deny that Paul had taught the Thessalonians many things by word of mouth. No one would deny that the teaching of an apostle carried absolute authority. The point of debate between Catholics and Protestants is whether that teaching was infallibly preserved by word of mouth. So the mere reference to truth received firsthand from Paul himself is, again, irrelevant as support for the Catholic position.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">What is irrelevant, and - beyond that - absurd, is an argument like the one above, in which it is asserted that Paul could not be talking about tradition even when he uses the very word and refers to oral teaching. What else is needed or required, for heaven's sake? Even when the proof is this clear, the Protestant polemicist has to weasel out of it by special pleading. This is what Dr. MacArthur attempts to do, and it is effective until exposed, as presently. He tries to argue (using his own words in quotes):</span><br />
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<span style="color: black;">1. "it is not to be disputed that the doctrine he has in mind is authoritative, inspired truth."</span><br />
<span style="color: black;">2. "The Thessalonians had evidently been misled by a forged letter, supposedly from the apostle Paul." "He wanted to ensure that they would not be fooled again by forged epistles."</span><br />
<span style="color: black;">3. "he wanted them to stand fast in the teaching they had already received." "they had heard the actual truth from his own mouth already."</span><br />
<span style="color: black;">4. "The point of debate between Catholics and Protestants is whether that teaching was infallibly preserved by word of mouth."</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: -1;"><span style="color: black;">5. "Certainly nothing here</span> suggests that the tradition Paul delivered to the Thessalonians is infallibly preserved for us anywhere except in Scripture itself."</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: -1;">6. "he was ordering them to receive as infallible truth only what they had heard directly from his own lips."</span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">This is very clever, and a vigorous attempt to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, but ultimately it is illogical special pleading, and I will now show why I consider that to be the case, by commenting on each proposition in turn:</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">1. How is it that a doctrine specifically called a "tradition" by Paul and delivered orally as well as by letter - which even Dr. MacArthur describes as "<span style="color: black;">authoritative, inspired truth" - </span>is somehow seen to <i>not</i> be a tradition and <i>not </i>a disproof of the Protestant notion that binding doctrine can never rest on oral transmission? Dr. MacArthur might just as well argue that black is white or that a square is a circle. He can (quite remarkably) see something plainly before him, yet make it into a different thing, because it creates a difficulty for his Rule of Faith.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;">2. Paul is concerned about a forged letter; therefore, there exists no such thing as authoritative tradition???? Is this logical? Does it make any sense? Students of logic can see that several steps in the needed logical progression of thought have either been entirely skipped over (suggesting a shortcoming in logical thinking) or assumed to be true without proof (which is circular argument). Either way it is a terribly shoddy "argument."</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;">3. The Thessalonians had received oral teaching from Paul already, and he wanted them to hold to it, therefore there is no such thing as authoritative oral teaching, and the real truth in matters of authority is Bible Alone. Huh???!!!</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: -1;">4. This is correct. According to Jesus, various traditions before His time were preserved in such a way (as shown in Section II). That would seem to be sufficient for any Christian, but here we are merely trying to show that there is such a thing as authoritative oral tradition. Whether it was infallible or not is a separate issue logically (technically or philosophically speaking), but I would strongly contend that Paul (and all the apostles) casually assumed that the message they were delivering (orally, in most instances) was infallible. There is certainly no indication that they regarded it as <i>fallible</i>. When Paul spoke of receiving such traditions, he showed no indication whatever that it was fallible or that he questioned it because it came from oral transmission rather than written. Thus he appears to easily assume and take for granted that which Dr. MacArthur has the hardest time grasping and accepting, even when it is staring him right in the eye on the pages of the very Scripture that he grants the highest inspired authority (as Catholics do).</span> </span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: -1;">5. This skips over several points or steps in the logical progression of the argument Dr. MacArthur wishes to make. It is not <i>at all </i>clear that Paul's teaching could only have been faithfully preserved in Scripture and nowhere else. That is simply the later conception of <i>sola Scriptura </i>smuggled into the text. At this point there was no compiled New Testament; in fact, the letters to the Thessalonians are some of the earliest portions of the New Testament (possibly as early as 50 A.D., according to scholars). So it is absurd to even apply an analysis of <i>sola Scriptura </i>(regardless of whether that concept is true or not) to this scenario. At this point in history, Paul regards oral tradition as equally authoritative, as clearly shown in this verse, despite Dr. MacArthur's clever attempts to evade its clear meaning and import for our topic.</span> <span style="font-size: -1;">It is equally ludicrous to assume <i>sola Scriptura</i>, and then contend that the apostles always intended for subsequent Christian teaching after their deaths to be by the written word in the Bible alone, and never by oral or Church tradition, for the simple reason that this is never taught in Scripture, either. It is a bald assumption made by Protestants; assumed with no proof or argument whatever, other than some supposed mythical connection with verses which in fact (closely-scrutinized) don't support <i>sola Scriptura</i> at all, like 2 Timothy 3:15-17. On the other hand, Scripture plainly teaches that the Church would have authority, as seen in the Jerusalem Council, and the "binding and loosing" passages, among many others.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: -1;">6. Dr. MacArthur evidently thinks that "if Paul said it, even if it is oral (though this is not a tradition, of course), then it is binding, and will (almost always) be recorded in Scripture later, anyway, so we know exactly what Paul was telling them." None of this is at all certain. Besides, this epistle was actually from Silvanus and Timothy also (see 2 Thess. 1:1). He (as primary author) often uses the plural "we" or "us" (see, e.g., 1:3-4,11, 2:1,13). Thus, in the passage under consideration, Paul is not only considering his own instruction authoritative, but also that of Silvanus and Timothy <span style="color: black;">("traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from <b>us</b>"). This undercuts much of Dr. MacArthur's "Paul as the pastor of the Thessalonians" contextual argument. This plurality is reiterated again in 2 Thessalonians 3:6-7 (RSV):</span></span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: -1;">Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us; we were not idle when we were with you,</span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: -1;">So we see that this tradition was larger than simply Paul's own teaching, to be recorded in the Bible, and there alone, without one whit of it being transmitted in any other fashion. Thus Jude (3) can speak of "the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." What faith? By whom? This was not just Paul and it was not the New Testament. It was already known and was proclaimed by the apostles, in its fullness (Matthew 28:20 - see particularly the word "all"). This is not <i>sola Scriptura</i>, pure and simple. Catholics agree that Scripture contained this deposit, but not all of it explicitly or not absolutely every jot and tittle of apostolic tradition. If the Protestant says we are not bound to anything not found explicitly in Scripture, we ask them where in Scripture do we find such a notion, and why should we think ourselves in a better place than the earliest Christians, before the New Testament was compiled? Paul and the other apostles show no indication whatever that pre-New Testament Christians were somehow in a less-prepared or equipped position vis-a-vis Christianity than us "Bible Christians" today are. <i>Sola Scriptura</i> is unbiblical and unhistorical mythology.</span></blockquote>
<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">Paul was urging the Thessalonians to test all truth-claims by Scripture, and by the words they had heard personally from his own lips. And since the only words of the apostles that are infallibly preserved for us are found in Scripture, that means that we, like the Bereans, must compare everything with Scripture to see whether it is so.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Where did Paul urge them to "test all truth-claims by Scripture" in 2 Thessalonians? Dr. MacArthur must have a very different Bible than I do (I use the RSV). "Gospel" is mentioned twice (1:8 and 2:14), "tradition" twice (2:15 and 3:6), but neither "Scripture" nor "Scriptures" appears. "Word of the Lord" appears once (3:1), but it appears not to refer to the Bible:</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: -1;">Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed on and triumph, as it did among you.</span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">This is referring to the proclamation of the gospel (i.e., Jesus' death on the cross on our behalf, Resurrection, Ascension, Atonement, and Redemption - not a technical theory of soteriology and justification, as many Protestants mistakenly define the biblical "gospel"), which is what St. Paul and his aides were doing, not going around passing out Bibles like the Gideons or something. The New Testament was far from being compiled at all at this early stage, so the above could not possibly have been referring to it. It can't refer to the Old Testament because that was not the new Good News that they were preaching.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Yet somehow Dr. MacArthur gets out of this book that it offers no support for Catholic notions of tradition whatever and completely supports <i>sola Scriptura </i>because of the Bereans mentioned in the book of Acts? This is very curious exegesis indeed. </span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">A similar state of affairs occurs in 1 Thessalonians also. "Scripture" or "Scriptures" never appear. "Word," "word of the Lord," or "word of God" appear five times (1:6,8, 2:13 - twice - , 4:15), but in each instance it is clearly in the sense of oral proclamation, not Scripture. We have no reason from the text to believe that this oral "word of the Lord" was understood to be restricted to what was later recorded in the New Testament. Dr. MacArthur assumes this, but he has no proof. It is simply an inadequate Protestant way of dealing with all this authoritative oral proclamation and tradition going on in the Bible itself.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">Roman Catholic apologists protest that only a fraction of Paul's messages to the Thessalonians are preserved in the two brief epistles Paul wrote to that church. True, but may not we assume that what he taught the Thessalonians was the very truths that are found in generous measure throughout all his epistles - justification by faith alone, the true gospel of grace, the sovereignty of God, the Lordship of Christ, and a host of other truths?</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">For the most part, yes; this is a reasonable assumption (I note that Paul didn't teach faith alone, and that phrase never appears in the Bible, either, except to be <i>denied</i> twice, in the book of James), but it doesn't prove that there was nothing else. That there was indeed more is an equally reasonable assumption to make, and is certainly not ruled out by the text. I would maintain that it is more likely than the contrary option, given the text of 2 Thessalonians.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">The New Testament gives us a full-orbed Christian theology. Who can prove that anything essential is omitted?</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">An indisputable, explicit proof of <i>sola Scriptura</i> is omitted. And as Dr. MacArthur has told us, <i>sola Scriptura </i>is an essential, fundamental principle of Protestantism - the absence of which would cause the system to collapse.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">On the contrary, we are assured that Scripture is sufficient for salvation and spiritual life (2 Timothy 3:15 - 17).</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">And that same Scripture teaches an authoritative tradition and Church.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">Where does Scripture ever suggest that there are unwritten truths that are necessary for our spiritual well-being?</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: -1;">In the many passages I have detailed. I have shown that <i>gospel</i> and <i>word of God</i> and <i>tradition </i>are identical concepts in Paul's mind and that of the other Scripture writers. Dr. MacArthur surely would not deny that the gospel is <span style="color: black;">"necessary for our spiritual well-being."</span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="color: blue; font-size: -1;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">One thing is certain - the words in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 imply no such thing.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">I'm content to let readers decide between my interpretation and his. That's the beauty and utility of dialogue (or critique, as the case may be).</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">2 Thessalonians 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep aloof from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us." This is the only other verse in all the New Testament where Paul uses the words tradition or traditions to speak of apostolic truth that is to be obeyed.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">That is true as far as the Greek word <i>paradosis</i>, yet the <i>concept </i>of tradition is also clearly present in these six passages: 1 Corinthians 11:23, 15:1-3, Galatians 1:9,12, 1 Thessalonians 2:13, 2 Timothy 1:13-14, and 2:2.</span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">By now, Paul's use of this term should be well established. This cannot be a reference to truth passed down from generation to generation. Again, Paul is speaking of a "tradition" received firsthand from him.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">So what? Elsewhere he clearly teaches the concept of a tradition he received, passed on or delivered to others, and which they should also "maintain" (1 Cor 11:2), "stand firm" in and "hold to" (2 Thess 2:15 - a mere eight verses before 3:6, in a New Testament originally without chapter or verse numbers); one that should be "followed" and "guarded" since it was "entrusted . . . by the Holy Spirit" (2 Tim 1:13-14), and "entrusted to faithful men" in order to "teach others also" (2 Tim 2:2). What more does one need? Protestants are the ones always stressing comparison of Scripture with Scripture and the necessity of checking context for proper hermeneutics and exegesis. I have done all that. But Dr. MacArthur seems to not even know that these other relevant passages exist. He is ignoring all this evidence and special pleading.</span>Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-34349053679125441422015-06-20T17:55:00.000-04:002015-08-10T00:59:28.821-04:00Critique of Chris Ferrara's Radical Reactionary Hit-Piece in Opposition to Pope Francis' Christian Environmentalism<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">By Catholic apologist</span> Dave Armstrong (6-20-15)<br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Radical Catholic reactionary and quasi-schismatic Christopher A. Ferrara published a critique of Pope Francis' encyclical <i>Laudato si</i> at the reactionary <i>Remnant</i> website. It's entitled, <a href="http://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/1811-on-the-pope-s-encyclical-laudato-si-talk-to-the-animals-after-all-you-re-one-of-them">On the Pope's Encyclical, 'Laudato Si’: Talk to the Animals - After All, You’re One of Them</a> (6-18-15). I shall proceed to write a rebuttal of it. Ferrara's words below will be in <span style="color: blue;">blue</span>.</span></div>
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<span style="line-height: 16px;"><span style="margin: 8px 0px;"><span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">. . . Pope Francis attempts to fashion yet another post-conciliar novelty in the Church: a call to “ecological conversion,” </span></span></span><br />
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<span style="color: #333333; line-height: 16px;"><span style="margin: 8px 0px;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">This is no novelty at all. In fact, it is <i>such</i> an old-fashioned, non-novel Christian worldview that it hearkens all the way back to Genesis and Adam and Eve:</span></span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="color: #333333; line-height: 16px;"><span style="margin: 8px 0px;"><b>Genesis 1:28</b> (RSV) </span></span>And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth." </span></blockquote>
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<span style="color: #333333; line-height: 16px;"><span style="margin: 8px 0px;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">The crux of the "issue" in many ways, is what "dominion" means. The pope has given us an extended treatise on that very thing, and many others. This entails ecology or environmentalism: stewardship over God's creation. The staunchly orthodox, saintly Fr. John A. Hardon, in his <i><a href="http://www.therealpresence.org/cgi-bin/getdefinition.pl">Modern Catholic Dictionary</a></i>, defined "dominion" as follows:</span></span></span><br />
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Ownership of material goods, entitling the owner to proprietary rights, i.e., to use, change, keep, or dispose of what one owns. Christianity views dominion as not absolute, but always relative to the common good of society. </blockquote>
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<span style="color: #333333; line-height: 16px;"><span style="margin: 8px 0px;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">See that last part? Applied to Genesis 1:28, it means that man's dominion is "not absolute" but rather, integrated into the common good of society (and by extension here, the earth). This is not a new thing in Catholicism, but a very old thing in man's existence. The pope deals forthrightly with these fundamental aspects of Christian environmentalism and stewardship:</span></span></span><br />
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67. We are not God. The earth was here before us and it has been given to us. This allows us to respond to the charge that Judaeo-Christian thinking, on the basis of the Genesis account which grants man “dominion” over the earth (cf. Gen 1:28), has encouraged the unbridled exploitation of nature by painting him as domineering and destructive by nature. This is not a correct interpretation of the Bible as understood by the Church. Although it is true that we Christians have at times incorrectly interpreted the Scriptures, nowadays we must forcefully reject the notion that our being created in God’s image and given dominion over the earth justifies absolute domination over other creatures. The biblical texts are to be read in their context, with an appropriate hermeneutic, recognizing that they tell us to “till and keep” the garden of the world (cf. Gen 2:15). “Tilling” refers to cultivating, ploughing or working, while “keeping” means caring, protecting, overseeing and preserving. This implies a relationship of mutual responsibility between human beings and nature. Each community can take from the bounty of the earth whatever it needs for subsistence, but it also has the duty to protect the earth and to ensure its fruitfulness for coming generations. “The earth is the Lord’s” (Ps 24:1); to him belongs “the earth with all that is within it” (Dt 10:14). Thus God rejects every claim to absolute ownership: “The land shall not be sold in perpetuity, for the land is mine; for you are strangers and sojourners with me” (Lev25:23).</blockquote>
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<span style="line-height: 16px;"><span style="margin: 8px 0px;"><span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">which requires a subtle demotion of man to merely a part of the natural world.</span></span></span><br />
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<span style="color: #333333; line-height: 16px;"><span style="margin: 8px 0px;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">This is sheer nonsense. The "superiority" of man is casually assumed:</span></span></span><br />
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We do not understand our <b>superiority </b>as a reason for personal glory or irresponsible dominion, but rather as a different capacity which, in its turn, entails a serious responsibility stemming from our faith. [220; my bolding]</blockquote>
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The passage above about dominion makes it crystal clear that man is "above" the other creatures of the earth; having dominion <i>over</i> them. There is no difference here at all with historic biblical, Catholic theology. But if a cynical, reactionary mind like Ferrara's wishes to <i>invent </i>one, according to his erroneous preconceived opinions, it is always easy to <i>state </i>a falsehood without <i>demonstrating</i> it (as he does throughout his piece). He engages in extended soliloquies of his own fancies and imaginary myths, while I prefer to stick to documentation from the <i>actual text</i>, and citations of it, with commentary; along with relevant biblical citations.<br />
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<span style="line-height: 16px;"><span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">. . . an Orthodox Archbishop by the name of John Zizioulas, representing the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, who—don’t you know?—is very big on environmentalism.</span></span><br />
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<span style="color: #333333; line-height: 16px;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">Of course he is, because it is a Christian responsibility to be good stewards of the earth : God's creation and gift to us. Why is this perceived as a <i>bad </i>thing? It's similar to the radical Catholic reactionary (and, too often, mainstream traditionalist) jaded view of ecumenism. They take the worst examples of corruptions of it (liberal indifferentism and religious relativism) and collapse that into the supposed <i>entire</i> (or orthodox) meaning of the word <i>ecumenism</i>. It just ain't so. But they continue doing it, as part of their own isolated, self-absorbed, warped pseudo-tradition.<br /><br />The same (analogously) is done with environmentalism. The radical "ecclesiological right" assumes that left-wing zealots completely<i> own</i> that discussion and that there is no such thing as a Christian, biblical, legitimate environmentalism or conservationism. That just ain't so, either. Newsflash: Jesus is Lord of<i> all </i>of life, and that includes <i>care of the earth and its natural resources</i>. Pope Francis has done us all a great service by engaging in the entire discussion under the grand framework of biblical / Christian premises and assumptions and categories. He "unsecularizes" the conversation. It will never be the same again, for anyone who takes this encyclical seriously.</span></span><br />
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<span style="line-height: 16px;"><span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">Yesterday I completed the task of slogging my way through the Italian “draft” of this 185-page book-length excuse to tie the Church’s credibility to eco-fascism and the global warming scam, which appears to be identical to the final document released today. As the world knows, Sandro Magister leaked the “draft” to the press two days ago at the cost of his Vatican press credentials.</span></span><br />
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<span style="color: #333333; line-height: 16px;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">Isn't it interesting that Ferrara has no qualms whatsoever about reading a mere "draft" (in Italian) of the encyclical, that he himself openly states was leaked. He's very transparent, indeed brazen, about it. But why, I wonder, would any serious commentator do such a stupid thing? He couldn't wait another <i>day</i> or two before opening his big mouth and proceeding to trash the caricature of the straw man that he creates of the document? Is this some juvenile desire to be "first" or something?<br /><br />By contrast, I carefully read the entire encyclical before making my commentary on it, complete with many extended citations, from the official English document, <a href="http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/encyclicals/documents/papa-francesco_20150524_enciclica-laudato-si.html">posted on the Holy See website</a>.</span></span><br />
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<span style="color: #333333; line-height: 16px;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">Ferrara published <a href="https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pope-francis-leaked-encyclical-the-good-and-the-bad">a "summary"</a> of his hostile analysis at <i>Lifesite News</i>. Time-permitting, perhaps I will critique that as well, in due course. Now, for those of you who wonder why I have urged folks to avoid this website, here is a prime example. It publishes the bilge of one of the most notorious radical Catholic reactionaries, trashing the pope. That alone is grounds for any orthodox, obedient Catholic to ignore<i> Lifesite News</i> altogether. With all the alternative news and theological sources out there, you don't need to patronize a venue that sees nothing wrong whatsoever in Ferrara's radical reactionary analysis. It spreads poison and cancer in the Body of Christ.</span></span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;"><span style="line-height: 16px;">. . . </span><span style="line-height: 16px;">the massively verbose Vatican documents of the post-conciliar epoch, . . . </span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="color: #333333;"><span style="line-height: 16px;">This is a plainly empty-headed remark. Who cares about length? I could document many examples of the </span></span><i style="color: #333333; line-height: 16px;">Remnant</i><span style="color: #333333;"><span style="line-height: 16px;">'s own hyper-verbosity, but anyone can check that out for themselves. Surely, our era is not unique in terms of prolixity, nor in nuanced or "difficult-to-read" expression. To give but one historical example, how about St. Thomas Aquinas' 13th century five-volume </span></span><i style="color: #333333; line-height: 16px;">Summa Theologica</i><span style="color: #333333;"><span style="line-height: 16px;">? He considered that to be merely an </span></span><i style="color: #333333; line-height: 16px;">introductory</i><span style="color: #333333;"><span style="line-height: 16px;"> work of theology. He wrote at<a href="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/"> the very beginning</a> of it:</span></span></span><br />
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<span style="color: #333333; font-family: inherit;"><span style="line-height: 16px;">Because the doctor of Catholic truth ought not only to teach the proficient, but also to instruct beginners (according to the Apostle: As unto little ones in Christ, I gave you milk to drink, not meat -- 1 Corinthians 3:1-2), we purpose in this book to treat of whatever belongs to the Christian religion, in such a way as may tend to the instruction of beginners.</span></span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /><span style="color: #333333;"><span style="line-height: 16px;">Yet to today's reader it appears almost impossibly complex; so much so that several recent attempts have been made to summarize or abridge or selectively quote it (I undertook</span></span></span> one such effort<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="color: #333333;"><span style="line-height: 16px;">, myself).</span></span><br /><br /><span style="color: #333333;"><span style="line-height: 16px;">Not to mention the Bible itself . . . Has Ferrara read<i> that</i> all the way through (I did, 37 years ago)? Did he not suffer through the usually remarked-upon dry legal passages of Leviticus, or all the "begats"? Or how about reading in the two books of Chronicles, basically the same thing that was already recorded in 1 and 2 Kings? The four Gospels overlap, for heaven's sake! Would Ferrara go after </span></span><i style="color: #333333; line-height: 16px;">them</i><span style="color: #333333;"><span style="line-height: 16px;">, too, for unnecessary length and reiteration?</span></span></span><br />
<span style="color: #333333; line-height: 16px;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><br />I have found that those who complain about length of other writings, invariably engage in long, long pieces of writing, <i>themselves</i>. I often observed this with regard to anti-Catholic opponents. They would critique my "verbose" writing, and proceed to write, -- unashamed and blissfully unaware --, tedious, boorish tomes of four, five times greater length. I concluded that such complaints (due to the double standard) were in fact, almost wholly reflective of their underlying <i>hostility</i> to a given document. If they <i>agreed</i> with it, such remarks would never be made. But since they don't, they complain about mere <i>length</i>.</span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Depth is not to be frowned upon. It's not an "either/or" scenario. People need to stretch their intellectual and spiritual horizons, too, and be challenged.<br /><br />I always say that people manage to spend <i>plenty</i> of time in front of the idiot box or reading 500-page novels (many of dubious value, to put it mildly). They'll study reams and reams of materials in college, to prepare for their vocation / occupation. But when it comes to <i>God</i>, all of a sudden we are supposed to dumb down and read only short things. Why should the Holy Father bow to the short attention spans and the sad "sound-byte" / Twitter reality of today? </span><span style="color: #333333; line-height: 16px;"> His general audience addresses are short, if someone must have brevity. Different strokes . . . It's much ado about nothing: what is called obfuscation or obscurantism.</span><br />
<span style="color: #333333; line-height: 16px;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="line-height: 16px;"><span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">I would like to focus on one of the most troubling aspects of what we all expected would be yet another eruption of a Vesuvius that has been burying everything in its path with rhetorical lava over the past two-and-a-half years. </span></span><br />
<span style="color: #333333; line-height: 16px;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="color: #333333; line-height: 16px;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">Now here is a prime (textbook, classic) instance of the very thing he (unjustly) complains about. He condemns supposed "rhetorical lava" in Pope Francis, yet engages in it <i>himself</i>, with this abjectly idiotic, sophistical remark. In fact, I would characterize pretty much his <i>entire hit-piece</i> as "rhetorical lava" (or much <i>worse</i>, but we are in mixed company).<br /><br />He cites, undocumented, a portion of the "leaked" document:</span></span><br />
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<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;"><span style="line-height: 16px;">The human being, even supposing evolutionary processes, involves a novelty not fully explainable by </span><i style="line-height: 16px;">the evolution of other open systems</i><span style="line-height: 16px;">. Every one of us has in himself a personal identity able to enter into dialogue with others and with God Himself. The capacity for reflection, reasoning, creativity, interpretation, artistic elaboration, and other original capacities demonstrate a singularity that transcends the realm of the physical and biological. The qualitative novelty involved in the emergence of a personal being within the material universe presupposes a direct action of God, a peculiar calling to life and to the relation of a Thou to another thou.</span></span></blockquote>
Presumably, this is some version (from who knows where?) of what the <i>official </i>Vatican document translates as follows:<br />
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<blockquote class="tr_bq">
81. Human beings, even if we postulate a process of evolution, also possess a uniqueness which cannot be fully explained by the evolution of other open systems. Each of us has his or her own personal identity and is capable of entering into dialogue with others and with God himself. Our capacity to reason, to develop arguments, to be inventive, to interpret reality and to create art, along with other not yet discovered capacities, are signs of a uniqueness which transcends the spheres of physics and biology. The sheer novelty involved in the emergence of a personal being within a material universe presupposes a direct action of God and a particular call to life and to relationship on the part of a “Thou” who addresses himself to another “thou”. The biblical accounts of creation invite us to see each human being as a subject who can never be reduced to the status of an object.</blockquote>
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Note the difference in the first sentence ("novelty" vs. "uniqueness"). Remember the old debate about "liberal" translations of the Vatican II documents? It's deliciously humorous that now, radical Catholic reactionary Ferrara does the same thing: citing a non-official "leaked" translation of an official papal document, rather than exercising the supreme patience of waiting all of a day, or two at the most, to get the <i>Real Thing</i>. Ironies never cease, among the endlessly foolish reactionaries.<br />
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Ferrara makes one of his more remarkably ludicrous assertions in response to this portion:<br />
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<span style="color: blue;">I searched in vain for a reference anywhere in the main text of LS to what we fundamentalist Catholics commonly, however quaintly, refer to as “the soul.” There is none, save a passing reference in paragraph 233, occurring in the final few paragraphs of the document as part of a kind of “Catholic supplement” to an otherwise thoroughly humanistic presentation of the “ecological crisis.” </span><br />
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It does nothing of the sort. Let's tackle these fathomless imbecilities one-by-one. The argument over the lack of the word "soul" is a (to me, quite comical) version of the old Jehovah's Witnesses "argument" that the Bible doesn't contain the word "Trinity." Indeed it doesn't. But is the <i>concept </i>there? Absolutely! I have pages and pages of trinitarian passages from he Bible in two of my books. The term "virgin birth" is not in the Bible, either. "Magisterium" isn't there; nor is "pope" or "Blessed Virgin Mary" or "sacred heart" or "immaculate conception" or "ecumenical council" or "transubstantiation" or "Assumption" [of Mary] or a host of other good Catholic terms.<br />
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Likewise, the concept of the <i>soul</i> is found in several places in this encyclical, when the Holy Father discusses man made in the image of God (see sections 65, 67, and 84), or the notions of human uniqueness among creatures, as seen in section 81 above and often elsewhere. What the pope states in section 81 is perfectly consistent with St. Thomas Aquinas' statement about the soul in his <i>Summa Theologica</i>:<br />
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<blockquote class="tr_bq">
The rational soul can be made only by creation; which, however, is not true of other forms. The reason is because, since to be made is the way to existence, a thing must be made in such a way as is suitable to its mode of existence. Now that properly exists which itself has existence; as it were, subsisting in its own existence. Wherefore only substances are properly and truly called beings; whereas an accident has not existence, but something is (modified) by it, and so far is it called a being; for instance, whiteness is called a being, because by it something is white. Hence it is said Metaph. vii, Did. vi, 1 that an accident should be described as "of something rather than as something." The same is to be said of all non-subsistent forms. Therefore, properly speaking, it does not belong to any non-existing form to be made; but such are said to be made through the composite substances being made. On the other hand, the rational soul is a subsistent form, as above explained (75, 2). Wherefore it is competent to be and to be made. And since it cannot be made of pre-existing matter--whether corporeal, which would render it a corporeal being--or spiritual, which would involve the transmutation of one spiritual substance into another, we must conclude that it cannot exist except by creation. (<a href="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1090.htm">I, q. 90, a. 2c</a>)</blockquote>
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Remember, the above is for "instruction of beginners" according to St. Thomas. Yet we are supposed to bristle under Pope Francis' intolerably difficult and lengthy prose. The pope reiterates what Pope Pius XII stated in 1950 in <i><a href="http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis.html">Humani Generis</a></i> (section 36): that man's soul is a direct supernatural creation by God. He is saying that biology (including a posited evolution) cannot explain it; that it "transcends the spheres of physics and biology." Yet Ferrara calls the encyclical a "<span style="color: blue;">thoroughly humanistic presentation." </span>Poppycock! Has anyone ever heard a biology professor or teacher discussing the supernatural creation of the soul? That's theology, not biology.<br />
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Ferrara is full of hot air if he wants to make out (rather astonishingly) that this is a secularist-type <span style="color: blue;">"humanistic" </span>presentation. It is <i>anything but</i> that; the utter<i> opposite</i> of it. I collected in my initial commentary many examples of the pope's blatant defiance of mere "scientism" (a thing that both C. S. Lewis and G. K. Chesterton wrote a lot about) and materialistic science:<br />
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<blockquote class="tr_bq">
It cannot be maintained that empirical science provides a complete explanation of life, the interplay of all creatures and the whole of reality. This would be to breach the limits imposed by its own methodology. If we reason only within the confines of the latter, little room would be left for aesthetic sensibility, poetry, or even reason’s ability to grasp the ultimate meaning and purpose of things. [199]</blockquote>
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Dialogue among the various sciences is likewise needed, since each can tend to become enclosed in its own language, while specialization leads to a certain isolation and the absolutization of its own field of knowledge. This prevents us from confronting environmental problems effectively. An open and respectful dialogue is also needed between the various ecological movements, among which ideological conflicts are not infrequently encountered. [201]</blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
Environmental education should facilitate making the leap towards the transcendent which gives ecological ethics its deepest meaning. [210]</blockquote>
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Then too, there is the recognition that God created the world, writing into it an order and a dynamism that human beings have no right to ignore. [221]</blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
The universe unfolds in God, who fills it completely. Hence, there is a mystical meaning to be found in a leaf, in a mountain trail, in a dewdrop, in a poor person’s face. The ideal is not only to pass from the exterior to the interior to discover the action of God in the soul, but also to discover God in all things. [233]</blockquote>
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Standing awestruck before a mountain, he or she cannot separate this experience from God, and perceives that the interior awe being lived has to be entrusted to the Lord . . . [234]</blockquote>
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As an apologist (34 years and running, including nine years in my evangelical Protestant period) who has been openly, frequently skeptical of the rampant materialism present in much of science today, I was<i> ecstatic </i>to see reflections such as these, which are thoroughly biblical: literally soaked in biblical and Catholic tradition. Yet Ferrara is so blind that he can't <i>see</i> it. It's truly amazing.</div>
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<span style="color: blue;">In fact, at the beginning of Chapter Two of this book called an encyclical Francis poses this amazing question (not accurately stated in the official English translation): “Why insert [</span><i style="color: blue;">inserire</i><span style="color: blue;">] in this document, addressed to all men of good will, a chapter referring to the convictions of faith?” That a Pope would view the “convictions of faith” as an </span><i style="color: blue;">insertion</i><span style="color: blue;"> (or inclusion) in a </span><i style="color: blue;">papal encyclical </i><span style="color: blue;">tells us all we need to know about the problem with </span><i style="color: blue;">Laudato Si</i><span style="color: blue;">’.</span><br />
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This is as stupid as his previous barb. There are different functions of documents, even papal ones. Different things are directed to different people. The pope stated outright that he is writing more so to "all men" in this encyclical:<br />
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<blockquote class="tr_bq">
3. More than fifty years ago, with the world teetering on the brink of nuclear crisis, Pope Saint John XXIII wrote an Encyclical which not only rejected war but offered a proposal for peace. He addressed his message <i>Pacem in Terris</i> to the entire “Catholic world” and indeed “to all men and women of good will”. Now, faced as we are with global environmental deterioration, I wish to address every person living on this planet. </blockquote>
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There is nothing whatsoever <i>wrong</i> with that. The pope writes to all men, as a great leader of mankind. He receives much respect from many non-Catholics. He is using his "bully pulpit," so to speak (to borrow a phrase from Theodore Roosevelt). Why is this objectionable? It's entirely biblical, as well as in accord with some of the emphases of Vatican II.<br />
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St. Paul wrote about "I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some" (1 Cor 9:22). He sought common ground with the pagan Athenians, when addressing them (Acts 17:16-34). Jesus commended a pagan Roman centurion for his sublime faith (hardly seen among Jews, as He said). St. Peter interacted with the Roman centurion Cornelius, and brought Gentiles into the Church (Acts 10). Pope Pius XI wrote his encyclical, <i><a href="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11BRENN.HTM">Mit Brennender Sorge</a></i> (14 March 1937), in German, in order to address the growing Nazi menace. Ferrara acts, dumbfounded, as if all this were the most novel thing in the world. The pope writes:<br />
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<blockquote class="tr_bq">
62. Why should this document, addressed to all people of good will, include a chapter dealing with the convictions of believers? I am well aware that in the areas of politics and philosophy there are those who firmly reject the idea of a Creator, or consider it irrelevant, and consequently dismiss as irrational the rich contribution which religions can make towards an integral ecology and the full development of humanity. Others view religions simply as a subculture to be tolerated. Nonetheless, science and religion, with their distinctive approaches to understanding reality, can enter into an intense dialogue fruitful for both.</blockquote>
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He is merely using diplomatic, ecumenical language in this section. It's as if he is conveying the message: "I have sought to write, above, in the spirit of what all men have in common. Now please permit me to more specifically address my own Catholic flock [unspoken assumption: where we share common premises not shared with all other men]." I've done a similar thing, many times, in conversations with atheists (I just met with six of them over dinner, eleven days ago). I will be defending Christianity in general or speaking about areas where we agree, then I note that I am talking specifically about Christians, or Catholic Christians. It is a reminder that people talk in different ways to different people (back to Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:22). That's the reality of effective, adult, constructive discussion. <br />
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But Ferrara doesn't <i>get </i>it. This inability to grasp differences in genres or styles of language, or various approaches to diverse audiences, is widely characteristic of radical Catholic reactionaries; strikingly in common, in many ways, with the wrongheaded woodenly literal biblical and theological analyses of Protestant fundamentalists, and also with comically flawed and fallacious atheist analyses of the Bible and Christian beliefs. The latter tendency is a thing I will deal with (I note in passing) in my next book.<br />
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<span style="color: blue;">Let us assume that the words to which Francis has apparently put his name are to be taken according to the ordinary signification of words, as opposed to what Jimmy Akin will undoubtedly tell us they “really mean” in one of his “things to know” con jobs.</span><br />
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My friend Jimmy Akin has to write his frequent analyses of the pope's words precisely because of nitwits like <i>Ferrara</i> who can't figure them out on their <i>own</i>, and must cynically <i>distort</i> them, to their own nefarious ends (quasi-dissent, quasi-schism, Luther-like private judgment, and radical Catholic reactionary error). If it weren't for the liberal dissidents and reactionary fools like Ferrara, and those who swallow up the dim-witted "analyses" of same, Jimmy could do many other things. But he, like me, is forced to deal sometimes with such folly, in order to help protect the flock from being hoodwinked. It's part of our duty as apologists. <br />
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I've written two books about radical Catholic reactionaries like Ferrara and have a large web page devoted to them. I'd love to do many <i>other</i> things, too, believe me, but as an apologist, I sometimes have to spend time (as I am today on this Saturday afternoon, for no pay) refuting silly, idiotic stuff like this: <i>precisely</i> because some (not a small number of) Catholics will fall for it. If there is any "con" here, it is assuredly Ferrara's flatulent pseudo-analysis, not Akin's.<br />
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<span style="color: blue;">LS declares that by some unspecified “direct action” of God, man has “emerged” as a “personal being” from the material universe, but possessed of a “qualitative novelty” that distinguishes him from the other animals that have also “emerged” from the material universe via “evolutionary processes.”</span><br />
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Yes; this is Catholic dogma: the soul is a supernatural creation (i.e., not, by definition, subject to any biological processes or laws at all), and man is above other creatures. Ho hum. ZZZzzzz . . . . This is some sort of supposed "scandal" for Ferrara's oh-so-fertile brain to confront? Ferrara makes a big deal of the phrase, <span style="color: blue;">“qualitative novelty”</span>, from his "leaked" version. The official version simply has "uniqueness" (twice in sec. 81, seen above). Is that objectionable to Ferrara, too: that man is "unique" among creatures?<br />
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Man was created from matter by any account: whether through evolutionary process or by a special instantaneous creation. Catholics are freely allowed to take either view. What is <i>not </i>permitted is to believe in a "materialistic 'creation'" <i>that excludes <b>God</b></i>. That is where the essence of the battle in theology and apologetics -- with the secular world -- really lies. The Holy Father takes great pains in this document to emphasize that very thing time and again.<br />
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<span style="color: blue;">In Genesis we read that “the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.” We do not read that man is “qualitative novelty” emerging from an evolutionary process as a “personal being.”</span><br />
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Nor do we read it (<span style="color: blue;">"qualitative novelty"</span>) in this (official) document; only in Ferrara's "leaked" one. By making hay of this one phrase that isn't even<i> there</i> (and taken out of context), he only makes himself look even more silly and foolish, many times over, than he already is. But these unsavory tactics have become part-and-parcel of the ongoing cottage industry of misrepresenting and misunderstanding this great pope.<br />
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If Ferrara insists on waxing indignant over evolution (like all good fundamentalists do), it should be noted that it is only mentioned<i> three times</i> in the document (sections 18 and 81, twice), and in the latter, he states, "even if we<i> postulate</i> a process of evolution, . . ." (my emphasis). That is hardly an enthusiastic advocacy of the theory of evolution, although the pope himself likely believes in theistic evolution. It has never been a <i>mandatory</i> belief for Catholics. It's<i> permitted</i> as one interpretation of the origins of creation and human life in particular.<br />
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But some Catholics seem to have the most difficult time accepting different permitted beliefs among other Catholics (e.g., the debate of Thomists and Molinists regarding predestination). They demand that everything be dogmatic and infallible at the highest levels. The question of biological evolution is simply <i>not</i> in that category. Durational process as part of creation was held or discussed as a possibility at least as far back as St. Augustine; also by St. Thomas Aquinas. Let Ferrara quibble with <i>them</i> if he chooses to.<i> I</i> won't be reading . . .<br />
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<span style="color: blue;">Because man has a soul, he is ontologically superior by his very nature to every other living creature, indeed all living creatures put together.</span><br />
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. . . which is why the pope taught this very thing, casually referring to "our superiority" in section 220. Pope Francis maintains the traditional concept of "dominion" (mentioning it eight times). All he does is deny that the dominion should be "absolute" (67, 117) or "tyrannical" (83) or "irresponsible" (83, 220), and he denies that it should include "attacks on nature" (66). He positively asserts that it essentially amounts to "stewardship" (116): which anyone who understands the biblical teaching on this has already been quite aware of, long before this document. One might regard the encyclical as a helpful <i>development</i> (even a "striking" one) of the biblical and Catholic notion of dominion over / stewardship of the earth, but as such, it is not at all <i>inconsistent</i> with what has come before.<br />
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<span style="color: blue;">God does not forget even things as trivial as sparrows sold at market for a pittance; infinitely less so each man with his immortal soul, who is worth far more than any mere animal. That is the point of Our Lord’s teaching. . . . But man has not lost his intrinsic superiority to all other animals, nor his title to governance over them.</span><br />
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No kidding. <i>DUH</i>!!!!! Nothing in this encyclical is inconsistent with this understanding. It's standard practice of the radical reactionaries to fight straw men, rather than <i>actual </i>opponents or views. The RadCathRs have been doing this for two years with Pope Francis. Why should Ferrara be any different? He's the quintessential radical reactionary; the poster-boy, so he can't and won't depart from the template and the ferociously spinning playbook and hackneyed talking points.<br />
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<span style="color: blue;">So why does Francis not state the simple truth that God endowed man with an immortal soul of infinite worth, thereby setting him above all other creatures?</span><br />
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He<i> does</i> do exactly that, as I have been showing! Here's some more: he refers to the "unique worth" of human beings (90). He notes "the inalienable worth of a human being" (136) and "our unique place as human beings in this world and our relationship to our surroundings" (15). This isn't good <i>enough </i>for Ferrara? Well, whoop-de-<i>doo</i>! Who <i>cares</i>? The pope <i>has</i> in fact done what our relentless critic claims he has <i>not</i> done.<br />
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To the extent that he does not do so as <i>explicitly</i> as Ferrara would like (which is a much more minor question), I submit that it is because it is elementary Catholicism, known to any sharp, adequately catechized fourth-grade Catholic child. One need not state the obvious over and over. It is assumed, and stated <i>more than enough</i> in this document. "It's <i>in</i> there" (like the old soup commercial said). <br />
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Ferrara even stoops so low as to chide the pope for not citing additional words of a particular Gospel passage, as if he wished to exclude certain elements. This is beyond childish. It's embarrassing to have to even have to take my time to <i>refute</i> such patent nonsense. But if I convince even <i>one person</i> to start ignoring Ferrara and his reactionary crowd, it will have been well worth it.<br />
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Ferrara goes on to even <i>greater </i>heights of attack and ridicule at the end of his screed, most of which I will not dignify with specific point-by-point reply. Suffice it to say that the pope has reiterated man's dominion, and has <i>not </i>taught any form of vegetarianism. That's all anyone needs to know, in order to disregard the last third of Ferrara's empty-headed attack. <br />
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He quibbles, for example, with Pope Francis' <i>A Christian prayer in union with creation</i> near the end of the encyclical. Here again he shows his profound biblical ignorance. Many Catholics suffer from this deficiency. I'm grieved (but not <i>surprised</i>) that Ferrara is among them. Holy Scripture indeed contains passages such as the following:<br />
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<b>Psalm 69:34</b> Let heaven and earth praise him, the seas and everything that moves therein.</blockquote>
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<b>Psalm 148:3-5, 7</b> Praise him, sun and moon, praise him, all you shining stars! [4] Praise him, you highest heavens, and you waters above the heavens! [5] Let them praise the name of the LORD! For he commanded and they were created. . . . [7] Praise the LORD from the earth, you sea monsters and all deeps,</blockquote>
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<b>Isaiah 42:10-12</b> Sing to the LORD a new song, his praise from the end of the earth! Let the sea roar and all that fills it,the coastlands and their inhabitants. [11] Let the desert and its cities lift up their voice,the villages that Kedar inhabits; let the inhabitants of Sela sing for joy, let them shout from the top of the mountains. [12] Let them give glory to the LORD, and declare his praise in the coastlands.</blockquote>
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<b>Luke 19:37-40</b> As he was now drawing near, at the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen, [38] saying, "Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord! Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!" [39] And some of the Pharisees in the multitude said to him, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples." [40] He answered, "I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out."</blockquote>
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<b>Romans 8:19-23</b> For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God; [20] for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope; [21] because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God. [22] We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; [23] and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.</blockquote>
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That's a lot of Bible to ignore! Right from King David, the prophet Isaiah, our Lord Jesus, and the apostle Paul. Are we to believe that <i>they</i> can write these sorts of thoughts, but <i>Pope Francis </i>cannot simply say, "Father, we praise you with all your creatures"? It's absolutely asinine.<br />
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Rather than search for Scripture to support (or refute) his views, Ferrara prefers to cite St. Francis of Assisi in <i>supposed</i> opposition to his namesake pope. And the key word there is "supposed" . . .<br />
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Ferrara, most appropriately, ends with wholesale mockery:<br />
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<span style="color: blue;">Today I read a blog post . . . accompanied by a still shot from the TV series <i>All in the Family</i>, whose title expresses quite well the deepening absurdity of this pontificate: “Time to Turn off the Francis Show and Stay Faithful.” I would love to turn off The Francis Show, but the problem is that The Francis Show cannot be turned off. If only it could.</span><br />
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Friends, I strongly recommend that you turn off the <i>Chris Ferrara</i> farce of a "show." Follow the Holy Father; not clowns in a sideshow. He won't lead you astray. This is how God designed His Church. Popes aren't perfect. Paul rebuked Peter for hypocrisy. But they can be trusted, with faith in God's promises and oversight, for doctrinal and pastoral instruction. Ignore bloviating boorish boobs like Ferrara (except to read refutations of him, such as this post). But don't ignore the pope, whom God selected to lead His One true Church.<br />
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This encyclical is a wonderful way to become acquainted with Pope Francis' ever-insightful orthodox teaching and ingratiating style.<br />
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See also the<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/1014225571945761"> Facebook cross-posting </a>of this piece. The combox contains further comments and interactions (some with Ferrara), which are not present in the comments here).</div>
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<br />Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.com10tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-88638444240558659022015-06-18T14:35:00.003-04:002015-08-10T00:56:09.477-04:00Pope Francis' Encyclical "Laudato si": A Beautiful and Profoundly Wise Statement of Christian Environmentalism and Theology of Creation<div style="text-align: center;">
By Catholic apologist Dave Armstrong (6-18-15)</div>
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I <a href="http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/encyclicals/documents/papa-francesco_20150524_enciclica-laudato-si.html">read the whole thing</a> a short while ago. There are innumerable riches here, and a fabulous integrated treatment of environmental / resource problems. This will clearly become <i>the</i> definitive Christian statement on the topic. For too long, Christians have been accused of being (or, too often, actually were in practice) indifferent to the problems of the earth and the environment: as if we merely want to exploit the earth and her resources, rather than (the biblical view) being stewards of God's marvelous creation. I think this encyclical will go a long way towards dispelling those notions. The secularists don't "own" this discussion, anymore than they own economic or demographic or "nature of the marriage and family" discussions. Along these lines, the Holy Father observed:<br />
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<blockquote class="tr_bq">
An inadequate presentation of Christian anthropology gave rise to a wrong understanding of the relationship between human beings and the world. Often, what was handed on was a Promethean vision of mastery over the world, which gave the impression that the protection of nature was something that only the faint-hearted cared about. Instead, our “dominion” over the universe should be understood more properly in the sense of responsible stewardship. [116]</blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
Once we start to think about the kind of world we are leaving to future generations, we look at things differently; we realize that the world is a gift which we have freely received and must share with others. Since the world has been given to us, we can no longer view reality in a purely utilitarian way, in which efficiency and productivity are entirely geared to our individual benefit. Intergenerational solidarity is not optional, but rather a basic question of justice, since the world we have received also belongs to those who will follow us. [159]</blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
. . . a mistaken understanding of our own principles has at times led us to justify mistreating nature, to exercise tyranny over creation, to engage in war, injustice and acts of violence, . . . [200]</blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
It must be said that some committed and prayerful Christians, with the excuse of realism and pragmatism, tend to ridicule expressions of concern for the environment. Others are passive; they choose not to change their habits and thus become inconsistent. So what they all need is an “ecological conversion”, whereby the effects of their encounter with Jesus Christ become evident in their relationship with the world around them. Living our vocation to be protectors of God’s handiwork is essential to a life of virtue; it is not an optional or a secondary aspect of our Christian experience. [217]</blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
[W]e are not disconnected from the rest of creatures, but joined in a splendid universal communion. [220]</blockquote>
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I particularly like the Holy Father's emphasis on blending and harmonizing Catholic "environmental" and social teaching:<br />
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<blockquote class="tr_bq">
There can be no ecology without an adequate anthropology. [118]</blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
Today, the analysis of environmental problems cannot be separated from the analysis of human, family, work-related and urban contexts, nor from how individuals relate to themselves, which leads in turn to how they relate to others and to the environment. There is an interrelation between ecosystems and between the various spheres of social interaction, . . . [141]</blockquote>
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He "humanizes" and "Christianizes" important scientific discussions that are usually hyper-secularized in the false dichotomy habitually drawn between science and God. I love that! It's a direct "punch to the nose" to a ludicrously compartmentalized and intellectually bankrupt secularism and excessive scientism (i.e., a materialistic version of science that is logically self-defeating, given the origin and history of that same science: which was overwhelmingly theistic):<br />
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<blockquote class="tr_bq">
It cannot be maintained that empirical science provides a complete explanation of life, the interplay of all creatures and the whole of reality. This would be to breach the limits imposed by its own methodology. If we reason only within the confines of the latter, little room would be left for aesthetic sensibility, poetry, or even reason’s ability to grasp the ultimate meaning and purpose of things. [199]<br />
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Dialogue among the various sciences is likewise needed, since each can tend to become enclosed in its own language, while specialization leads to a certain isolation and the absolutization of its own field of knowledge. This prevents us from confronting environmental problems effectively. An open and respectful dialogue is also needed between the various ecological movements, among which ideological conflicts are not infrequently encountered. [201]<br />
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Environmental education should facilitate making the leap towards the transcendent which gives ecological ethics its deepest meaning. [210]<br />
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Then too, there is the recognition that God created the world, writing into it an order and a dynamism that human beings have no right to ignore. [221]<br />
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The universe unfolds in God, who fills it completely. Hence, there is a mystical meaning to be found in a leaf, in a mountain trail, in a dewdrop, in a poor person’s face. The ideal is not only to pass from the exterior to the interior to discover the action of God in the soul, but also to discover God in all things. [233]<br />
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Standing awestruck before a mountain, he or she cannot separate this experience from God, and perceives that the interior awe being lived has to be entrusted to the Lord . . . [234]</blockquote>
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He takes on unisexism as well:<br />
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[V]aluing one’s own body in its femininity or masculinity is necessary if I am going to be able to recognize myself in an encounter with someone who is different. In this way we can joyfully accept the specific gifts of another man or woman, the work of God the Creator, and find mutual enrichment. It is not a healthy attitude which would seek “to cancel out sexual difference because it no longer knows how to confront it”. [155]</blockquote>
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He (quite appropriately and relevantly) ties in the incarnation and eucharistic theology with environmentalism:<br />
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<blockquote class="tr_bq">
For Christians, all the creatures of the material universe find their true meaning in the incarnate Word, for the Son of God has incorporated in his person part of the material world, planting in it a seed of definitive transformation. [235]<br />
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It is in the Eucharist that all that has been created finds its greatest exaltation. Grace, which tends to manifest itself tangibly, found unsurpassable expression when God himself became man and gave himself as food for his creatures. The Lord, in the culmination of the mystery of the Incarnation, chose to reach our intimate depths through a fragment of matter. . . . Joined to the incarnate Son, present in the Eucharist, the whole cosmos gives thanks to God. . . .The Eucharist joins heaven and earth; it embraces and penetrates all creation. The world which came forth from God’s hands returns to him in blessed and undivided adoration . . . [236]</blockquote>
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He even includes a magnificent passage on the Blessed Virgin Mary:<br />
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<blockquote class="tr_bq">
Mary, the Mother who cared for Jesus, now cares with maternal affection and pain for this wounded world. Just as her pierced heart mourned the death of Jesus, so now she grieves for the sufferings of the crucified poor and for the creatures of this world laid waste by human power. Completely transfigured, she now lives with Jesus, and all creatures sing of her fairness. She is the Woman, “clothed in the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars” (Rev 12:1). Carried up into heaven, she is the Mother and Queen of all creation. In her glorified body, together with the Risen Christ, part of creation has reached the fullness of its beauty. She treasures the entire life of Jesus in her heart (cf. Lk 2:19,51), and now understands the meaning of all things. Hence, we can ask her to enable us to look at this world with eyes of wisdom. [241]</blockquote>
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I very much resonate with the pope's social ideas, since I am a distributist ("Let us keep in mind the principle of subsidiarity, which grants freedom to develop the capabilities present at every level of society, while also demanding a greater sense of responsibility for the common good from those who wield greater power" [196] ), and critic of the many excesses of corporate capitalism and materialism ("profit cannot be the sole criterion to be taken into account" [187] / "nor should the economy be subject to the dictates of an efficiency-driven paradigm of technocracy" [189] ), as well as the evils of Marxism and Communism (and pollution, strip mining, etc.). I'm also a strong critic of anti-child contraceptive mentalities, and (obviously) pro-life, as any Catholic should and must be.<br />
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The pope refused to ignore the wholesale slaughter of preborn human beings:<br />
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<blockquote class="tr_bq">
Since everything is interrelated, concern for the protection of nature is also incompatible with the justification of abortion. How can we genuinely teach the importance of concern for other vulnerable beings, however troublesome or inconvenient they may be, if we fail to protect a human embryo, even when its presence is uncomfortable and creates difficulties? [120]<br />
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Is it not the same relativistic logic which justifies buying the organs of the poor for resale or use in experimentation, or eliminating children because they are not what their parents wanted? [123]<br />
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The mindset which leaves no room for sincere concern for the environment is the same mindset which lacks concern for the inclusion of the most vulnerable members of society. [196]</blockquote>
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I am a passionate nature lover and conservationist, and very concerned with the preservation of nature's beautiful resources. My actual views are often in stark contrast with the gross and slanderous caricatures of some (online; several, former friends or supposedly friends) who have sadly made themselves my "enemies."<br />
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I've been absurdly accused of being "more Republican than Catholic" and a "neo-conservative" etc. (not to mention, a supposed "defender" or "advocate" of torture: something that has <i>never</i> been true at any time). Nothing could be further from the truth. I am in many ways what is called a political conservative, but I'm also a distributist and strong advocate of Catholic "third way" social teaching. I can't be cynically put into a box that I am not in fact in. The Church is infinitely more so a guide to my worldview and approach to life and thought than any flawed, always-compromised-in-some-way mere political party would or could ever be. My positive reaction to this encyclical is but one of innumerable indications of my true positions on issues.<br />
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In the next two weeks, for example, I will be visiting the magnificent Redwood trees on the coast of California. These forests are but 10% as large as they used to be. Someone got wise and took efforts to preserve the small remnants of the once vast forest. The national forest system gathers needed resources of lumber without destroying the ecosystems in the forests. We have learned about how to respectfully treat mother nature and mother earth. I visit old-growth forests in every state where I can find them. Often, they are just a few acres in areas that were once completely covered with these primeval forests.<br />
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Since it is the hot-button issue usually coupled to analysis of this encyclical (from many folks, even before they have<i> read</i> it), I note in passing that I disagree with a very tiny portion of it: the section about global warming (I disagreed with virtually nothing <i>else</i>, upon first reading). "Warming" is mentioned only nine times in the entire encyclical. This is a question of scientific "facts" and interpretations, that have nothing to do directly with the Catholic faith or the magisterium; hence, a Catholic is completely at liberty to respectfully disagree. Briefly summarized, this is my position:<br />
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1. There are indeed some real and verifiable changes in climate and the global environment in recent years.<br />
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2. Global warming is a myth. The actual temperature data regarding the entire earth shows no temperature gain over the last twenty years or so: in stark contrast to the previous alarmist predictions. This is an indisputable fact; not mere speculation or theory. The doom-and-gloom prophets have been wrong again and again; including, e.g., dire warnings about population growth and inability to feed ourselves. Al Gore stated in 2000 or so that the polar ice cap (surrounding the north pole) would be no more by now. It is in fact flourishing and growing. There simply is no discernible "trend of global warming" [167; also, 175]. With all due respect, the pope is mistaken in this regard.<br />
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3. It is highly questionable (based on various scientific evidences) that man is primarily or even significantly responsible for these changes (by use of fossil fuels, etc.). Many scientists believe that they are almost entirely the result of the natural cycles of nature.<br />
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4. It is highly questionable (based on various scientific evidences) that climate change will be catastrophic anytime soon, if ever.<br />
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Another quibble I would have is the absence of an espousal of nuclear energy, which is a very practical and attainable alternative to fossil fuels (which are blamed for much in the encyclical). It is mentioned in passing, twice: negatively (section 184) and semi-negatively (104). This appears to presuppose the leftish opposition to nuclear energy, which is "dissed" almost without argument anymore. Thus, one prime, existing alternative to what is deemed (rightly or wrongly) to be one of the primary environmental "problems" is ruled out from the outset.<br />
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Pope Francis wrote:<br />
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<blockquote class="tr_bq">
There are certain environmental issues where it is not easy to achieve a broad consensus. Here I would state once more that the Church does not presume to settle scientific questions or to replace politics. But I am concerned to encourage an honest and open debate so that particular interests or ideologies will not prejudice the common good. [188]</blockquote>
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I urge everyone to read and digest this wonderful and positively innovative encyclical. It's a goldmine of wisdom. I could easily quote 200 parts of it as especially noteworthy and "quoteworthy." Here are a few examples of its innumerable gems of insight:<br />
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<blockquote class="tr_bq">
113. . . . [H]umanity has changed profoundly, and the accumulation of constant novelties exalts a superficiality which pulls us in one direction. It becomes difficult to pause and recover depth in life. If architecture reflects the spirit of an age, our megastructures and drab apartment blocks express the spirit of globalized technology, where a constant flood of new products coexists with a tedious monotony. Let us refuse to resign ourselves to this, and continue to wonder about the purpose and meaning of everything. Otherwise we would simply legitimate the present situation and need new forms of escapism to help us endure the emptiness.<br />
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114. All of this shows the urgent need for us to move forward in a bold cultural revolution. Science and technology are not neutral; from the beginning to the end of a process, various intentions and possibilities are in play and can take on distinct shapes. Nobody is suggesting a return to the Stone Age, but we do need to slow down and look at reality in a different way, to appropriate the positive and sustainable progress which has been made, but also to recover the values and the great goals swept away by our unrestrained delusions of grandeur.<br />
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Since the market tends to promote extreme consumerism in an effort to sell its products, people can easily get caught up in a whirlwind of needless buying and spending. Compulsive consumerism is one example of how the techno-economic paradigm affects individuals. Romano Guardini had already foreseen this: “The gadgets and technics forced upon him by the patterns of machine production and of abstract planning mass man accepts quite simply; they are the forms of life itself. To either a greater or lesser degree mass man is convinced that his conformity is both reasonable and just”. This paradigm leads people to believe that they are free as long as they have the supposed freedom to consume. [203]<br />
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The emptier a person’s heart is, the more he or she needs things to buy, own and consume. [204]<br />
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Many people know that our current progress and the mere amassing of things and pleasures are not enough to give meaning and joy to the human heart, yet they feel unable to give up what the market sets before them. [209]<br />
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If someone has not learned to stop and admire something beautiful, we should not be surprised if he or she treats everything as an object to be used and abused without scruple. [215]<br />
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A constant flood of new consumer goods can baffle the heart and prevent us from cherishing each thing and each moment. To be serenely present to each reality, however small it may be, opens us to much greater horizons of understanding and personal fulfilment. Christian spirituality proposes a growth marked by moderation and the capacity to be happy with little. It is a return to that simplicity which allows us to stop and appreciate the small things, to be grateful for the opportunities which life affords us, to be spiritually detached from what we possess, and not to succumb to sadness for what we lack. This implies avoiding the dynamic of dominion and the mere accumulation of pleasures. [222]<br />
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[N]o one can cultivate a sober and satisfying life without being at peace with him or herself. An adequate understanding of spirituality consists in filling out what we mean by peace, which is much more than the absence of war. [225]</blockquote>
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Here is the <a href="http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/encyclicals/documents/papa-francesco_20150524_enciclica-laudato-si.html">URL of the encyclical</a> on the Holy See website.<br />
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<i>Read </i>it for yourself! We can do that now. It's easier than ever. Let the Holy Father in his great wisdom and charity guide you. You don't need apologists like myself to be your interpreter, if you can read and think for yourself. Perhaps this post can be a sort of general introduction, but no more than that. We need to read and ponder and digest his words; not have them spoon-fed to us through the multiple filters of the secular media (or the equally ridiculous histrionics of the radical Catholic reactionary crowd), or apologists or Catholic journalists, or anyone with a blog and an opinion. The very notion of any of those scenarios is a farce.<br />
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You will be edified and enriched beyond measure.<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">See also my <a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/1013139722054346">Facebook cross-posting</a>.</span></div>
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Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.com4tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-42583693897965359412015-05-24T11:40:00.000-04:002015-08-10T00:54:21.076-04:00Books by Dave Armstrong: "Cardinal Newman: Q & A in Theology, Church History, and Conversion"<div style="text-align: center;">
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<span style="color: red;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"> Completed on 24 May 2015 and published at Lulu on the same day. 367 pages.</span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">[cover design by Dave Armstrong]</span><br />
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<span style="color: red;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="color: black;"><b>--- For purchase options scroll to the bottom --- </b></span></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: large;">Miscellaneous</span></span></div>
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<a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2015/03/cardinal-newmans-conversion-odyssey-in.html">Cardinal Newman's Conversion Odyssey, in His Own Words (September 1839 to December 1845) </a><br />
<a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2015/03/cardinal-newmans-conversion-odyssey-in.html"> [list compiled from two of my Newman quotations books]</a> [19 March 2015]</div>
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<span style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: large;">Facebook Excerpts </span></span><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/927536417281344">On the "Argument from Longing"</a> [10 May 1828]<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/936228619745457">On the "Rule of Secrecy" ("Disciplina Arcani") and Development of Doctrine</a> [26 Jan. 1834]<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/944509402250712">On How the Indwelling Holy Spirit Works in Us</a> [29 Jan. 1835]<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/948892128479106">Prayer for the Dead is as Well-Attested in the Early Church as the Canon of Scripture</a> [16 May 1838] <br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/948900238478295">No Fundamental Difference Between Written and Oral Tradition</a> [23 May 1838]<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/952377581463894">On the Definition of Grace</a> [22 Jan. 1841]<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/960080974026888">On What Usually Persuades People of Christianity</a> [Feb. 1841]<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/962069893827996">Cardinal Newman's Conversion Agonies: Jan. 1842 to Feb. 1844 </a><br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/964325416935777">On Arian, Monophysite, and Donatist Analogies to Via Media Anglicanism</a> [April 1844]<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/964343460267306">Still-Anglican Newman on Papal Supremacy in the Early Church</a> [19 May 1844]<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/965462983488687">On Pope Gregory the Great's Supposed Denial of Universal Papal Jurisdiction</a> [ 5 Nov. 1849]<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/965760966792222">On the Falsity of <i>Sola Scriptura</i></a> [26 Feb. 1850]<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/967737149927937">On How Departed Saints Can be Aware of Earthly Events</a> [8 March 1853]<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/975710585797260">On the Supposed Necessity of Infallible Proofs for an Infallible Church</a> [24 April 1858]<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/976685272366458">Newman Virtually Predicts Vatican II (and a Greater Role for the Laity) in 1859</a> [17 July 1859]<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/977877562247229">On Biblical and Traditional Evidences for Mary's Immaculate Conception</a> [30 May 1860]<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/979212538780398">On Invincible Ignorance and the Salvation of Protestants</a> [4 Sep. 1862]<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/983159408385711">On the Possible Salvation of Protestants</a> [7 Feb. 1864]<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/983212055047113">On Folks Who Pretend that Mere Theological Opinions Are Dogmas</a> [10 March 1864]<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/984342288267423">Wonderful Argument on How we Know that Biblical Eucharistic Language is Literal</a> [24 Aug. 1864]<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/984371558264496">On Much that is "Good and True" in Protestantism</a> [18 Sep. 1864]<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/986528358048816">On the Importance of Catholic Laity</a> [30 Nov. and 2 Dec. 1864]<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/987426557958996">On the Communion of Saints and Veneration of the Saints</a> [2 Oct. 1865]<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/987902291244756">On the Invocation of Mary</a> [29 March 1866]<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/990528197648832">On Papal Infallibility in March 1867</a> [23 March 1867]<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/990605134307805">Newman's Rebuke of William G. Ward as an Exponent of a Renewed Novatian, Quasi-Schismatic, Rigorist Attitude</a> [9 May 1867]<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/991413837560268">On Darwin and Theistic Evolution</a> [22 May 1868]<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/993186397383012">On the One, True Visible Church</a> [25 Jan. 1870]<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/993298300705155">On Whether Laymen Have to Interpret and Apply Church Proclamations</a> [30 March 1870]<br />
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<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/996018637099788">On Whether Pope Gregory XIII Gave Assent to the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre</a> [9 Sep. 1872]<br />
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<span style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: large;">Table of Contents </span></span></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<span style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: large;"> </span></span></div>
<br />
<br />
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">Dedication
</span>
</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">Introduction [<a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2015/05/introduction-to-cardinal-newman-q-on.html">read online</a>]</span></div>
<div class="western" style="font-weight: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Bibliographical
Sources</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>I.
Apologetics </b></span>
</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What Are Some Basic
Guidelines in Defending Our Faith?.......25
</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is Apologetics Only for
Non-Catholics or Non-Christians?.......26</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Should Laymen Have a
Working Knowledge of Apologetics?...26</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
How is Faith Related to
Apologetic Inquiry?..............................29</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
How is Grace Related to
Apologetics and Rational Argument?.30</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is Logical
Demonstration All There is to Apologetics?..............30</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
How Are Faith and
Reason Related?...........................................30</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is Apologetics the Same
as Proselytyzing?.................................33</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is “Controversy” in
Apologetics a Good Thing?........................34</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Should
a Person Exercise Faith if Still Plagued by Difficulties?</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Should we Avoid <i>Ad
Hominem</i> Attacks in Argument?................36<br />
What is the
Reward of Apologetics?...........................................37</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Should we Know People
Before Trying to Persuade Them?......37</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Does Proclaiming
Theological Truth Offend Some People?......37</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Are There Times When
Trying to Argue with People is Futile?.37</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Does the “Argument
from Longing” Suggest that Heaven Exists?</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
How Can we Communicate
Catholic Truths to Protestants?......38</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>II.
Philosophy of Religion</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">How
Important is Philosophy of
Religion?.................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">41</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
is “Philosophical
Theology”?............................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">41</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
is “Certitude” or Faith Held in
“Certainty”?.....................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">41</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Does
Certainty Derive from Demonstration or Probabilities?...</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">42</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">How
Compelling is Cumulative Evidence?................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">45</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Does
Conscience Surpass Intellect as a Way to God?.................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">48</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Is
Reasoning Key in Arriving at First Premises and Axioms?....</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">48</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Is
the Epistemology of Religion Primarily Subjective?..............</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">49</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Must
Christianity Necessarily be Proven, to be Rationally Held?</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">How
Do Most Intellectuals Regard Natural Law?......................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">50</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
is the Moral
Law?..............................................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">51</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
is Rationalism and its Fundamental Deficiency?..............</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">51</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">How
Are People Usually Convinced of Christian Truths?.........</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">52</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
is the Essence of
Religion?................................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">53</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
is the Relation of Faith to
Culture?....................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">54</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Do
Catholics Love the Philosophy of Plato and Socrates?.........</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">54</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">How
Strong is the Teleological (Design) Argument for God?....</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">54</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Does
the Argument from Final Causes Prove God's Existence?.</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">55</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>III.
Church History</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Are the Church Fathers
Closer to Catholicism or Protestantism?
</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Does Christian Truth or
Dogma Change Over Time?.................59</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
How Should Catholics
View John Wycliffe?..............................59</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Was the Protestant
“Reformation” a Praiseworthy Thing?.........60</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">How
Has Lutheranism
Evolved?................................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">60</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Is
Church History Fatal to
Protestantism?..................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">61</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>IV.
Development of Doctrine</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
is the Development of
Doctrine?.......................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">63</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What is the Rule of
Secrecy, or “Disciplina Arcani”?................69</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Does Development of
Doctrine Tend to Lead One to Rome?....71</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
How Did Newman Regard
His 1845 <i>Essay on Development</i>?...71</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>V.
Anglicanism</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Do
Anglicans Regard Themselves as a Species of Protestantism?</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Are the 39 Articles
“Protestant” in Nature?................................73</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What is the Status of
Anglican “Apostolic Succession”?...........74</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What Was the State of
Anglicanism in 1835?.............................75</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Was Anglicanism
Flourishing in 1839-40?.................................75</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Has Anglicanism
Unnecessarily Discarded Catholic Elements?</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Did Newman Agonize Over
Anglican Difficulties in 1840-1845?</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What Did Newman Think
of Anglicanism After 1845?..............86</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Are Anglican Orders
Valid?........................................................88</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>VI.
Conversion (to Catholicism)</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">What
Was Newman's View of the Catholic Church in 1834?.....</span><span style="font-weight: normal;">89</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">How
Far Was Newman from the Catholic Church in 1837?.......</span><span style="font-weight: normal;">90</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">Were
High Church Anglicans in 1839-40 Enticed to Catholicism?</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">What
Was the Initial Troubling Blow to Newman's Anglicanism?</span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Was
it “Thinkable” for Newman in 1839 to One Day Convert?.</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">92</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
Was Newman's View About Conversion in 1841-1845?...</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">93</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">How
Did Newman View His Conversion After 1845?.............</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">110</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Do
Converts Sometimes Become Obnoxious and Lack Humility?</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Does
God Provide Overwhelming Assurance to Converts?.....</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">119</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Should
One Convert
Quickly?..................................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">120</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Should
a Person Convert Merely to Alleviate Persisting Doubts?</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Do
Converts Typically Have Last-Minute Jitters and Qualms?</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Are
Non-Catholics Sometimes Cynical About Catholic Converts?</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Do Protestants Hope
that Famous Catholic Converts Will Return?</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Can we Know Who is
Likely to Convert to Catholicism?........122<br />
Does God Use
Curiosity to Bring in Converts?........................123</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Must Converts Get Used
to Catholic “Strangeness” at First?...123</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>VII.
Lay Participation</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Do Laymen Have an
Important Role to Play in the Church?....125</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Do
Popes Consult Laypeople Regarding Dogmatic Definitions?</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Do
Laymen Have to Interpret and Apply Church Proclamations?</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Was
Newman's Thinking on the Laity Vindicated in Vatican II?</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>VIII.
Bible, Tradition, and Authority</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">How
Fundamental is Revelation to Religious Truth?...............</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">131</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Does
Revelation Tend to be Unpredictable By its Very Nature?</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
is the Relationship Between Revelation and Faith?........</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">132</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Does
Revelation Have Rational Evidences in its Favor?..........</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">133</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Can
we Expect to Understand Revelation?...............................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">133</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
How Do we Come to Best
Understand Scripture?....................133</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Are Church and
Tradition Necessary to Understand the Bible?</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is the Canon of
Scripture Based on Tradition Only?................136</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Are the Five Books of
Moses (Pentateuch) of Late Origin?.....137</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is There a Method to
Proper Bible Interpretation?...................137</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Are Catholics Allowed
to Interpret the Bible on Their Own?..137</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
How Are the Church
Fathers Related to Bible Interpretation?.138</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Does the Church
Authoritatively Interpret Apostolic Tradition?</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is the Biblical Canon a
Difficulty for Protestantism?...............139</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Why is Tobit Considered
Scripture by the Catholic Church?...140</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What is the “Rule of
Faith”?.....................................................140</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is <i>Sola Scriptura</i>
(“Scripture Alone”) a True Principle?...........141</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Does Prior Bias
Influence Scriptural Interpretation?................142</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Should we Memorize
Scripture?...............................................142</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
In What Sense is the
Authority of Scripture Supreme?.............143</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is the Bible Materially
Sufficient for Salvation?......................143</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is the Bible Formally
Sufficient for Salvation?........................143</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is the Bible
Inspired?.................................................................144</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Can the Bible Possibly
Have Numerical Errors?......................144</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Can Biblical
<i>Manuscripts</i> Possibly Contain Error?..................144</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What is Oral
Tradition?.............................................................145</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Does
the New Testament Preclude Oral Tradition?..................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">145</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Is
Oral Tradition Superior to Written
Tradition?.......................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">146</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Are
Oral and Written Tradition Fundamentally Different?.......</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">146</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">How
Should we Regard Extrabiblical Tradition?.....................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">147</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
is the Relation of Tradition to Church Authority?...........</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">147</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
are
Creeds?......................................................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">148</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">How
Sure is the Deposit of
Faith?............................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">148</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Did
the Jews Pass Down the Notion of Tradition to Christians?</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Were
the Apostles Ignorant of Tradition Until Pentecost?........</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">149</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;">Can
One Possibly be Saved by Conscience Without Revelation?</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is Conscience an
Autonomous Authority?................................149</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What is Heresy and How
Should it be Viewed?.......................150</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>IX.
Doctrine of the Church (Ecclesiology)</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is There Such a Thing
as One Visible, Institutional Church?...153</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is the Church
Infallible in Her Dogmas?..................................156</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
How is an Infallible
Church Similar to a Prophet?...................160</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is Infallible Proof
Required to Accept an Infallible Church?...161</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Must we Believe <i>All
</i>Dogmas that the Church Teaches?..........164</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What Are Catholics Free
to <i>Not </i>Believe?.................................166</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Can we be Absolutely
Certain of Church Doctrines?...............167</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What is the Difference
Between Doctrines and Articles of Faith?</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Are Dogmas and
Theological Opinions Two Different Things?</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
How Authoritative are
Ecumenical Councils?..........................169</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What is the Relation of
Popes to Ecumenical Councils?..........171</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is the Church
Indefectible?.......................................................171</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
How Did Church
Government Originate?................................172
</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Does the Church Extend
Back to Apostolic Times?.................173</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What is Apostolic
Succession?..................................................173</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Is
the Catholic Church Our Authoritative (Orthodox) Guide?..</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">173</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Is
the Catholic Church
Universal?............................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">177</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Is
There Salvation Outside the Catholic Church?.....................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">178</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What are the Shortfalls
of Contradictory Religious Opinions?.180</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is Schism a Bad
Thing?.............................................................180</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Who Tends to Jettison
Orthodoxy in Order to Foster “Unity”?</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
How Shall we Regard
Denominationalism and Sectarianism?.181</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What is Rigorism or an
Overly Dogmatic Catholic Outlook?..182</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Should the Presence of
Sinners in the Church Alarm Us?........185</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Does the Bible Teach
the Concept of Excommunication?........187</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is Excommunication a
“Spiritual” Thing?................................189<br />
Is
Christianity Difficult and a “Narrow
Way”?.........................189</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What is the Principle
of Unity in the Church?..........................189</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is Ordination of
Priests or Pastors Necessary?..........................189</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Must Bishops Always be
Obeyed?............................................190</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What is
the Nature of a Bishop's Authority?.............................190</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Are
Bishops the Primary Authorities in Their Own Domains?.191</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Did
Newman Think that Vatican II Would Clarify Vatican I?..191</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>X. The
Papacy / Papal Supremacy and Infallibility</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
How Powerful Was the
Pope in the 5th Century?.....................193<br />
Does the Pope
Have Supreme Authority in the Church?..........193</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Does the Pope Possess
the Gift of Infallibility?........................197</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
Historical Evidence Suggests Belief in Papal Infallibility? </span></span>
</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What are the Limits and
Parameters of Papal Infallibility?......217</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Are Papal Encyclicals
Infallible in Their Entirety?..................220</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Should Popes Normally
be Obeyed, Infallible or Not?............220</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Did
Pope Gregory the Great Deny Universal Papal Jurisdiction?</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Have
Popes Properly Been Disagreed With?............................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">221</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
Are we to Make of the “Bad Popes”?..............................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">222</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Did
Pope Gregory XIII Give Assent to a Massacre?................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">223</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Can
Popes Personally be
Heretics?...........................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">224</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Does
the Pope Honorius “Scandal” Disprove Papal Supremacy?</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Does
Pope Liberius' Failure Disprove Papal Infallibility?........</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">227</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
Was Newman's Personal Opinion of Blessed Pope Pius IX?</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Does
1 Clement Confirm Papal Supremacy in Apostolic Times?</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>XI.
Theology of Salvation (Soteriology)</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What is
Grace?..........................................................................231</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
How Powerful is Grace
to Transform Men?.............................232</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is Grace Required for
Salvation?..............................................233</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What Does it Mean to Be
in a “State of Grace”?......................233</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is Grace Given in
Different Measure to Different Men?..........233</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
is Apostasy, or Falling from
Grace?................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">234</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Are we Saved by Verbal
or Creedal Professions Only?............234 </div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What is Faith and Where
Does it Come From?........................235</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
is the
Gospel?..................................................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">237</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
How Do we Prove that we
Have a Genuine Faith?...................238</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What are the Fruits and
Objects of Faith?.................................238</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What is “Fiducial
Faith” or “Faith in Faith”?...........................239</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Will Faith be Tried and
Tested?.................................................239</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Can we Obtain Absolute
Assurance of Salvation?....................239</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Can we Know Someone
Else's Eternal Destiny?......................240</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">How
Can we Discern Another Man's Spiritual State?..............</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">241</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">How
Shall we Approach the Doctrine of Predestination?.........</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">241</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">How
Important are Good Works According to Scripture?........</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">243</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Are
we Saved by
Works?..........................................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">243</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
is
Merit?...........................................................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">243</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
is Infused
Justification?...................................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">243</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
is the Relationship of Justification to the Sacraments?...</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">244</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Is
Sanctification a Difficult, Lengthy
Process?.........................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">244</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Does
Sanctification or Holiness Admit of Degrees?.................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">245</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">How
Close </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">i</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">s
Anglican Justification to St. Robert Bellarmine's?</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">How
Should Evangelists Approach Dying Persons?................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">245</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
is Antinomianism, or “Cheap Grace”?............................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">246</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Is
Preaching a Primary Instrument of Saving Faith?................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">246</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
is the Goal of
Preaching?................................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">247</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
Will Judgment Day be
Like?...........................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">247</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
is Original
Sin?................................................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">247</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
are the Consequences of
Sin?..........................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">249</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Does
Sin (or Rebellion) Have Degrees of Willfulness?............</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">249</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Can
we Sin in
Ignorance?..........................................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">249</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
are the Conditions for Mortal
Sin?..................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">249</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
is Invincible Ignorance in Relation to Final Salvation?..</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">249</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>XII.
Jesus Christ (Christology)</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Can we be Certain of
the Divinity (Godhood) of Jesus?...........253</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
How Central is “Christ
Crucified” in Christianity?..................253</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Was the Incarnation
Strictly Necessary?...................................253<br />
How Are
Christ's Two Natures Explained?...............................254</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
How Shall we View the
Atonement or Propitiation of Christ?.254</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Was Jesus Omniscient
(All-Knowing)?....................................255</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Was Jesus Subjected to
Concupiscence?...................................256
</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Can God
Suffer?........................................................................256</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>XIII.
God the Father (Theology Proper)</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Is
God Self-Existent and
Self-Sufficient?.................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">259</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">How
Much Does </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">God
Love Us?...............................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">259</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">How
Shall we Regard God's “Superintendence”?....................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">261</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">How
Should we Conceive of God's Will?.................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">261</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
is God's
Providence?........................................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">261</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Is
Discerning God's Providence
Difficult?................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">262</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Are
Images of God the Father
Permissible?..............................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">262</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>XIV.
The Holy Spirit (Pneumatology) and Trinitarianism</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
How Can we
Conceptualize the Mystery of the Holy Trinity?.263</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is Faith in the Holy
Trinity Necessary for Salvation?...............264</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
How Does the Indwelling
Holy Spirit Work in Us?..................264</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
How Does the Holy
Spirit Interact with Christians?.................265</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is the Unitarian
Rejection of Trinitarianism Based on Scripture?</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What is <i>Circumincession</i>
or <i>Perichoresis</i>?................................266</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What is “Divine
Nature” or “Divinity”?...................................266</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>XV. The
Blessed Virgin Mary (Mariology)</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Does Mary Intercede for
us in a Special Way?.........................269</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Should we Invoke, or
Ask for the Intercession of Mary?.........270</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Which Heresies Denied
that Mary was the Mother of God?....271</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What Does it Mean to
Call Mary the “New Eve”?...................271</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What is the Doctrine of
the Immaculate Conception of Mary?</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
How was Mary's
Immaculate Conception Proclaimed in 1854?</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Why Do Catholics Adhere
to Mary's Immaculate Conception?</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Why is the Immaculate
Conception Implausible to Protestants?</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What is the Historical
Evidence for the Immaculate Conception?</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Why
Did the Immaculate Conception Take So Long to Develop?</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Is
the Immaculate Conception Rationally Difficult to Accept?</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">How
Could Mary Have a “Savior” if She Was Immaculate?....</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">280</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Does
Mary's Immaculate Conception Have a Physical Element?</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Was
Mary's Assumption Very Widely Believed Before 1950?.</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">281</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is Mary Our Spiritual
Mother?..................................................281<br />
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Should
we Venerate
Mary?.......................................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">282</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Did Mary Have an
Extraordinary Intellect?..............................282</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Did Mary
Die?...........................................................................282</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is Mary a Mediatrix and
Channel of God's Graces?.................282</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Do the Marian Devotions
of Some Catholics Go Too Far?......283</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>XVI.
Angels and the Communion of Saints</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What is the Communion
of Saints?...........................................285</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Are Departed Saints
Aware of Earthly Events? …....................286</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Should we Venerate the
Saints?................................................286</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is Veneration
Infinitely Different from Adoration of God?......288</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Should we Venerate the
Angels?...............................................288</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Does Everyone Have a
Guardian Angel?..................................288</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
How Eminent is Rome as
a Place of Saints and Martyrs?........288</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Was Prayer for the Dead
an Apostolic Practice?.......................289</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Was Prayer for the Dead
Well-Attested in the Early Church?..289
</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Is
Prayer for the Dead a Biblical
Teaching?..............................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">289</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
is the Anglican Teaching on the Communion of Saints?.</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">290</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Is
Invocation of the Saints
Unbiblical?.....................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">291</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Do
the Saints Pray (Intercede) for
Us?.....................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">291</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Are
All Images in Worship
Idolatrous?.....................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">291</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Do
Miraculous Relics
Exist?.....................................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">293</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>XVII.
Purgatory</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Are
There Experiences in This Life Analogous to Purgatory?..</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">295</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is Purgatory a Third
Possible State After Death?......................295</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is Purgatory a Biblical
Doctrine?..............................................295</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is Everyone in
Purgatory Saved?..............................................296</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Do Souls in Purgatory
Suffer More than we Do?.....................296<br />
Is There Fire in
Purgatory?.......................................................296</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>XVIII.
Penance and Asceticism</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Are
Penance and Absolution
Necessary?..................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">297</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
is an
Indulgence?.............................................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">297</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Is
Self-Denial for the Cause of Christ a Good Thing?..............</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">298</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Is
Suffering Spiritually
Beneficial?...........................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">298</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Should All Clergymen be
Celibate?..........................................300</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Is
Celibacy a “Higher”
Calling?................................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">301</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>XIX.
The Holy Eucharist </b></span><span style="font-size: medium;"><b>and Sacrifice of the
Mass</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is the Holy Eucharist
Necessary for Salvation?........................303</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
How Do we Know that
Biblical Eucharistic Language is Literal?</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What is
Transubstantiation?......................................................304</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What Did Newman Believe
About the Real Presence in 1834?</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Does the Grace Received
from the Holy Eucharist Vary?........305</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is Eucharistic
Adoration Spiritually Beneficial?.......................305</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What is the Reasoning
Behind Communion in One Kind?.......306</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Does Validity of the
Eucharist Depend on the Priest's Holiness?</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What Does it Mean to
Say That the Mass is a Sacrifice?.........307</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Why Do Catholics Offer
Masses for the Dead?........................308</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Was the Last Supper a
Passover Meal?.....................................309</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>XX.
Devotions, Liturgy, and Worship</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;">What
is the Relation of Faith and Emotions?............................</span><span style="font-style: normal;">311</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;">How
Shall we Prevent Formal Prayers from Becoming Trite?.</span><span style="font-style: normal;">311</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;">Are
Shorter Form Prayers Preferable to Longer Ones?............</span><span style="font-style: normal;">312</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;">What
Makes The Lord's Prayer so Unique and Special?..........</span><span style="font-style: normal;">313</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;">How
Relatively Important are Sermons for the Clergyman?....</span><span style="font-style: normal;">313</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;">How
Does Kneeling Help Us to Receive Christian Truths?.....</span><span style="font-style: normal;">313</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;">In
What Sense Can a Crucifix be Worshiped?..........................</span><span style="font-style: normal;">314</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;">How
Much Does Scripture Teach About Public Worship?.......</span><span style="font-style: normal;">314</span><br />
<span style="font-style: normal;">How
Should we Regard Purported Miracles?...........................</span><span style="font-style: normal;">314</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;">What
is the Great Attribute of Catholic Devotional Literature?</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;">What
is the Evidence of a Particular Personal Calling?............</span><span style="font-style: normal;">316</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;">What
is the Relation of Doctrine to Devotional Practices?.......</span><span style="font-style: normal;">316</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;">Do
Catholics Have a Wide Freedom of Devotional Practice?..</span><span style="font-style: normal;">317</span><br />
<span style="font-style: normal;">What
is the Rationale Behind Devotion to Jesus' Sacred Heart?</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>XXI.
The Sacrament of Baptism</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What is the Relation of
Baptism to the Church?.......................319</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Does
Baptism
Regenerate?........................................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">319</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">How
is Baptism Related to the Holy Spirit and Justification?..</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">320</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
is Conditional
Baptism?...................................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">320</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Is
There Such a Thing as “Baptism of
Desire”?........................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">320</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>XXII.
Sacraments and Sacramentals</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
How Do we Define a
“Sacrament”?..........................................321</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What are the Attributes
and Benefits of Sacraments?...............322
</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
is Sacramental
Disposition?.............................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">323</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What is the
Relationship of Preaching to Sacraments?.............323</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
is the Sacrament of
Confirmation?..................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">323</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Is
Confession a Helpful and Biblical
Practice?.........................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">324</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Can
a Person Possibly be Saved Without the Sacraments?.......</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">325</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is the Sign of the
Cross Permissible?........................................325</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
How Can we Know that We
Have a Vocation to the Priesthood?</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">How
Important is it to Follow Our Vocation?...........................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">326</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Can
People be Mistaken About Their Supposed Vocation?......</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">326</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>XXI</b></span><span style="font-size: medium;"><b>II</b></span><span style="font-size: medium;"><b>.
Heaven and Hell / Satan and Demons</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What is the Beatific
Vision in Heaven?.....................................327</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What is the Blessedness
of Heaven?.........................................327</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is Hell
Eternal?..........................................................................327</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Does Eternal Punishment
in Hell Make Any Sense?................328</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What is it Like to
Experience Eternal Punishment?..................329</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is Satanic Oppression a
Continuing Reality?............................329</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>XX</b></span><span style="font-size: medium;"><b>I</b></span><span style="font-size: medium;"><b>V.
Education</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
How is Christianity
Related to Education?...............................331</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What is the Purpose of
a University?........................................332</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
What is the Philosophy
of History?..........................................332</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Does
Much Education Tend to Counter Christian Discipleship?</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>XXV.
Atheism, Agnosticism, Liberalism, and Secularism</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
is Philosophical and Theological Liberalism?.................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">333</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">How
Should we Regard Theological Liberalism?....................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">333</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Is
Political Liberalism Hostile to
Catholicism?........................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">336</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Are
There Jewish Analogies to Christian Theological Liberals?</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
is the Result of Resisting Theological Liberalism?.........</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">337</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span>
</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Where
Does Accommodation to the “Spirit of the Age” Lead? </span></span>
</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Is
Atheism Fundamentally Bigoted Against Christianity?........</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">338</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Do
Skeptics Assume Certain Premises Hostile to Christianity?</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Will
Atheism Satisfy the Deepest Longings of the Soul?.........</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">340</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">How
Should we Approach a Media Hostile to Christianity?....</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">341</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>XXVI.
Ecumenism</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Can
a Person Have Faith Without Having Heard the Gospel?..</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">343</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Can
Non-Catholics Receive
Grace?..........................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">343</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Can
Non-Catholics Possibly be
Saved?....................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">343</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Can a Good Man in
Another Religion Espouse Christianity?...344</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Can God Use Mistaken or
Heretical Men for His Purposes?....344</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">How
Should Protestants and Catholics Personally Interact?....</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">344</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Does
Protestantism Have Within it Much Truth?......................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">348</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Are
Catholics Too Often Ignorant About Protestantism?..........</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">350</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Does
the Holy Spirit Act Beyond the Catholic Church?...........</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">350</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">How
Should we Approach Religious Differences of Opinion?</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">W</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">hat
is the Ultimate Aim of Ecumenism?................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">351</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>XX</b></span><span style="font-size: medium;"><b>VI</b></span><span style="font-size: medium;"><b>I.
Science</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is Process Antithetical
to Creation?..........................................353</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is Theistic Evolution
Antithetical to Catholicism or Theism?..353</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Is Darwin's Theory of
Evolution Indicated by Anatomy?.........355</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Do Science and
Revelation Clash?............................................356</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Do Scientists Unduly
Interfere in the Domain of Religion?.....356</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Is
There But One Interpretation of Genesis Chapter One?.......</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">356</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Must
Catholics Believe that Noah's Flood was Universal?......</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">357</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>XX</b></span><span style="font-size: medium;"><b>VIII</b></span><span style="font-size: medium;"><b>.
Miscellaneous</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">How
Should Christians Regard Great Riches?.........................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">359</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Is
Exorcism a Legitimate Christian
Practice?...........................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">359</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">How
Serious of a Matter are
Vows?..........................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">359</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Do
Anti-Catholics Misrepresent Catholicism?..........................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">360</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Is
There But One Interpretation of the Book of Revelation?....</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">361</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">How
Does Catholicism (and the Bible) View Slavery?............</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">361</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
is Newman's Advice for Aspiring Writers?.....................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">364</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Is
Spanking or Corporal Punishment Permissible?...................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">365</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">How
Do we Know that Souls
Exist?.........................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">365</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Are
the Last Days
Near?...........................................................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">366</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Should Unbaptized
Persons be Married by Christian Clergymen?</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">What
Did the First Protestants Think of Polygamy?.................</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">367</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: magenta;">Last updated on 18 July 2015.</span></div>
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Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.com4tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-71799528681024896662015-05-23T01:19:00.002-04:002015-08-10T00:51:46.376-04:00Introduction to "Cardinal Newman: Q & A in Theology, Church History, and Conversion" (Edited by Dave Armstrong)<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<div style="text-align: center;">
By Dave Armstrong (5-23-15)</div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<br /></div>
<br />
<br /></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Blessed
John Henry Cardinal Newman wrote in a letter dated 10 February 1869:</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in;">
I am <i>not</i> a theologian. A theologian is one who has mastered
theology – who can say how many opinions there are on every point,
what authors have taken which, and which is the best – who can
discriminate exactly between proposition and proposition, argument
and argument, who can pronounce which are safe, which allowable,
which dangerous – who can trace the history of doctrines in
successive centuries, and apply the principles of former times to the
conditions of the present. This it is to be a theologian – this and
a hundred things besides – which I am not, and never shall be.
</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
He
stated “I am not a theologian” many times in his letters. He
often qualified any theological instruction he gave, making sure to
note that it was not cast in stone, and subject to correction by the
Church or credentialed theologians. In the above, strict “academic”
or “scholarly” sense, indeed he was not a theologian. Yet in
another broader (and in my opinion, far more important) sense, he
certainly <i>was</i> one.</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br />
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<a href="http://biblicalcatholicism.com/"><img alt="http://biblicalcatholicism.com/" border="0" src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-D8SOhMkO_Wc/VcffWZ-3egI/AAAAAAAAJIM/ypyCkR_JBh0/s1600/Square%2BAd%2B%255B250%2Bx%2B250%255D.jpg" title="" /></a></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<br /></div>
<br />
Whether
Newman was a <i>theologian</i> or not, he wrote exquisitely on
theology. The very fact that he was seeking to write (especially in
his personal letters) on a popular, non-technical level, makes his
work in this regard so important. In effect, he becomes a catechist,
and in part, an apologist, in these informal remarks in his
voluminous correspondence.
</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br />
Scholars
– for the most part – write to and for <i>other scholars</i>,
whereas the goal of Catholic catechists, apologists, and evangelists
is to reach the masses (and Catholics) with the joyous good news of
the glorious fullness of the Catholic Christian faith.</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br />
Furthermore,
in Cardinal Newman's writing we find (always and everywhere)
extraordinary prose almost unequaled in its eloquence: a feast of
19th century English style. Lastly – of supreme relevance and
importance – we encounter a <i>saintly</i> (as of this writing,
beatified) man, who will most likely one day be canonized as a saint.
I personally firmly believe that he will also be honored as a Doctor
of the Church in due course.</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
This is
the third book of Newman quotations that I have compiled. I do so
partly out of obligation for the central role that he played in my
own spiritual and theological odyssey, but primarily to widen the
availability of his lesser-known writings, and to share his profound
thought and insights with as wide an audience as possible.
</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
My
present goal (and what makes this book different from the previous
two) is to create almost a “systematic theology” from Cardinal
Newman. By use of categories, I have sought to arrange his thoughts
in such a way that they can be accessed all the more quickly.</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Cardinal
Newman (as one can see in the Table of Contents) covered a very wide
range of topics in his correspondence. I have sought to collect the
“cream” of his theological thoughts therein. As such, this volume
might be regarded as Newman's “catch-all” book, in which he deals
with many theological subjects; very unlike most of his books, which
are devoted to a single topic.</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
May you
enjoy this treasure-trove of wonderful theology, as well as Newman's
ruminations on Church history and the complexities of the conversion
process. In conversion, often theology, Church history, personal
experience, and apologetics are all merged together. No one
exemplified this mixture and the process of conversion more than
Blessed Cardinal Newman.</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
Thus,
this volume may be of particular usefulness for possible converts, as
well as Catholics seeking to revive an uncertain or tentative
personal Catholic faith. In these fabulous quotations, in any event,
there is much precious treasure for <i>anyone</i> who loves theology
and God, Who is at the center of it.</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-52694356052324018552015-05-13T17:33:00.002-04:002015-08-10T00:49:51.757-04:00Dialogue with a Baptist Philosophy Professor on Catholic-Protestant Ecumenical Relations (vs. Dr. Jerry Walls)<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
</div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
By Dave Armstrong (5-13-15)<br />
<br />
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
Jerry Walls is a philosophy professor at Houston Baptist University, and received his doctorate from Notre Dame. He will be shortly publishing a book which is a critique of Catholicism. He is <b><i>not </i></b>an anti-Catholic. This exchange took place on my (public) <a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/993339054034413">Facebook wall</a>. His words will be in <span style="color: blue;">blue</span>.<br />
<br />
* * * * *</div>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<br />
I knew you would not convert me, and I did not see a reasonable hope
of my converting you. I believe what you do – but I believe more. I
rejoice to think that you with all your heart and soul believe our Lord
Jesus Christ to be the Saviour of the world, and of every soul who comes
to Him for salvation; and the sole Saviour. I wish you believed the
whole counsel of God. But in this bad time, when there are so many
unbelievers, I rejoice to think you are not one of them.<br />
<br />
(Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman, <i>Letters & Diaries</i>, v. 25; To J. F. Lloyd, 14 April 1870)</blockquote>
<span style="color: blue;"><br /><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"></span></span></span></span></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993626284005690:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993626284005690:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody _1n4g" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993626284005690:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993626284005690:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993626284005690:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">All
I claimed was that he showed disdain for them in "Development," in
order to bolster his "Rome or nothing claim," which is true. He also
shows similar disdain for the Eastern church in that book. My only
interest in Newman pertains to his celebra</span></span><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993626284005690:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993626284005690:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993626284005690:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">ted
argument in that book, which I found wanting in several respects, many
of which are shown in Mozley's reply. And if he did not really believe
it's "Rome or nothing" he should have refrained from that rhetoric. I
was frankly even less impressed with his charity in that book than his
arguments.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993626284005690:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993626284005690:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody _1n4g" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993626284005690:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993626284005690:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993626284005690:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993626284005690:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993628424005476:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993628424005476:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993628424005476:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993628424005476:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">You
also made a remark about Newman quite possibly rejecting Protestantism
as a Christian tradition altogether. Newman treats individuals with
extreme charity, regardless of affiliation. He has hard words for
Anglicanism and Protestantism, but they have to be interpreted within
the framework of many "ecumenical" statements like the one above.</span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"></span></span></span></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993631377338514:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993631377338514:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993631377338514:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993631377338514:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Well
it all depends on how serious he is about the "Rome or nothing line,"
whether it is just rhetorical exaggeration or he really believes it.</span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993631377338514:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993631377338514:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993631377338514:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993631377338514:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody _1n4g" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">As
I already stated (on your wall), that is an argument concerning logical
consistency, which all thoughtful Christians make. If we believe our
communion is the best or truest one, we will necessarily think that
others are less logically consistent.</span><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">N</span></span><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">ewman simply extends that thought all the way, believing that only Catholicism is perfectly consistent. </span><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">It
doesn't follow that he denies that any non-Catholic Christian group
(and esp. individuals) is Christian at all. All the evidence is against
such an alleged denial.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993631377338514:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993631377338514:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993631377338514:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993631377338514:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody _1n4g" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657757335876:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657757335876:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody _1n4g" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657757335876:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657757335876:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657757335876:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">I've
done the same thing myself for 25 years, holding that any form of
Protestantism is viciously circular and unable to be consistently
maintained under scrutiny, in terms of <b><i>logic</i></b> and its relation to
historical facts and the Bible.</span><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657757335876:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
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<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993631377338514:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993631377338514:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993631377338514:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993631377338514:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody _1n4g" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657757335876:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657757335876:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody _1n4g" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657757335876:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657757335876:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><br /></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
<br />
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993631377338514:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993631377338514:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993631377338514:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993631377338514:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody _1n4g" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657757335876:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657757335876:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody _1n4g" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657757335876:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657757335876:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657757335876:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0"><br /></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span>
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993631377338514:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993631377338514:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993631377338514:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993631377338514:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody _1n4g" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993656740669311:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657757335876:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657757335876:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody _1n4g" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657757335876:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657757335876:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657757335876:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">At the same time,</span></span><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657757335876:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657757335876:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657757335876:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">
I have very warm, affectionate relations with many Protestants, whom I
consider my esteemed brethren in Christ, and have written dozens of
ecumenical posts and book chapters.</span></span></span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"></span></span></span></span>
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657714002547:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657714002547:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"></span><span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657714002547:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657714002547:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657714002547:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Yes,
he seems to recognize incoherent Protestants as in some sense
Christians in his other writings. But in "Development" his comments
about other Christians are not only dismissive but also comical
caricatures.</span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657714002547:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657714002547:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657714002547:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993657714002547:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993658357335816:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993658357335816:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993658357335816:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993658357335816:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993658357335816:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I
have already agreed that he broad-brushes. He has a deep contempt in
particular for Wesley and Methodism that I have never understood. Yet
even there he recognizes the good qualities found therein.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="color: blue;"><br /><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"></span></span></span></span></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993658420669143:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993658420669143:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993658420669143:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993658420669143:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993658420669143:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Yeah, too bad all of us Protestant Christian philosophers can't see how incoherent we are.</span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993658420669143:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993658420669143:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993658420669143:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993658420669143:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993658890669096:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993658890669096:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993658890669096:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993658890669096:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993658890669096:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">You
say Catholicism is incoherent and inconsistent. That's inherent in any
strong critique of another view. What the Hades is the difference? I see
none.</span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993659214002397:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993659214002397:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993659214002397:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993659214002397:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993659214002397:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Insofar
as we say <i>x</i>, <i>y</i>, and <i>z</i> in another view are incorrect, we are alleging
inconsistency: more so, the more examples we submit.</span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"></span></span></span></span>
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993659730669012:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993659730669012:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"></span><span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993659730669012:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993659730669012:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993659730669012:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">No,
I'm inclined to think it is possible to be a consistent RC, given your
assumptions. You can be wrong without being inconsistent, or at least
obviously or demonstrably so.</span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993659730669012:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993659730669012:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993659730669012:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993659730669012:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993661540668831:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993661540668831:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody _1n4g" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993661540668831:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993661540668831:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993661540668831:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">That's
what I think about Calvinism. But that is only post-premises. If we
disagree with another view, we have to either critique its premises, or
consistent application from premises, or both.</span><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993661540668831:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993661540668831:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993661540668831:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">So, e.g., in critiquing us, if you deny the three-legged </span></span><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993661540668831:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993661540668831:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993661540668831:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">stool
rule of faith (Scripture-Tradition-Church), that is the major premise
of authority we operate on. We may consistently apply it, but are wrong
(in your eyes) because the premise is wrong.</span><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993661540668831:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993661540668831:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993661540668831:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">Conversely,
we deny your premise of <i>sola Scriptura</i>, and say that the massive
edifice you build upon it is built upon the flimsy foundation of
unbiblical, illogical sand.</span></span></span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"></span></span></span></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993663440668641:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993663440668641:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993663440668641:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993663440668641:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Again,
too bad all us Protestant philosophers have a faith that is flimsy,
unbiblical and illogical. With ecumenism like this, who needs
sectarians?!</span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993663440668641:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993663440668641:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993663440668641:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993663440668641:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993666980668287:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993666980668287:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody _1n4g" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993666980668287:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993666980668287:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993666980668287:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Okay;
what is it that you think ecumenism is? I think all trinitarian,
baptized Protestants are brothers in Christ, part of the kingdom and
body of Christ; the great bulk of whom will likely be saved and in
heaven. At the same time they believe some fa</span></span><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993666980668287:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993666980668287:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993666980668287:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">lse
doctrines (a small minority of their entirety of beliefs) and fail to
believe some things that we think they should (Catholic "distinctives").
</span><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993666980668287:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993666980668287:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993666980668287:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">What
is so uncharitable or unecumenical in such a view? How is it vastly
different from your view of Catholicism? Did I say your weekly worship
adored Ba'al, as the Lutheran Confessions say of us, or that it is
relentlessly blasphemous, sacrilegious, and idolatrous, as Calvin and
Luther say of our Mass?</span><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993666980668287:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993666980668287:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993666980668287:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$8:0">It's
not uncharitable to claim that another Christian view has less support
from the Bible or logic than your own. Certainly if you are writing a
book about Catholicism, you will do that. You do so without being
anti-Catholic or bigoted, just as I make my critiques without being
anti-Protestant or bigoted.</span><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993666980668287:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993666980668287:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993666980668287:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$12:0">I'm
extremely grateful for my evangelical background, as I have made clear
many times in papers, books, and radio interviews. I view it as a very
good thing overall, but I view Catholicism as "better" and "the fullness
of Christian faith."</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"></span></span></span></span>
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993672194001099:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993672194001099:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody _1n4g" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993672194001099:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993672194001099:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993672194001099:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">
A belief in "One True Church" is not inconsistent with a high respect
for Protestants, who are imperfectly part of that Church by virtue of
baptism, the Nicene Creed, and a host of commonalities. Protestants
don't lik</span></span><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993672194001099:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993672194001099:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993672194001099:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">e
talk of "<b><i>The</i></b> Church." Their presuppositions make it almost inevitable
that they will view such a view as intolerant and insufferably arrogant. </span><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993672194001099:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">I
did this myself. My biggest bugaboos were papal and Church
infallibility (which I thought were the height of absurdity):<i> far </i>more
than Mary.</span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="color: blue;"><br /><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"></span></span></span></span></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993678590667126:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993678590667126:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993678590667126:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993678590667126:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993678590667126:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I
got no problem with the church, I just recognize the holy catholic
Church is much larger than Rome. But we will just have to disagree and
you can read my reasons if you want when our book comes out.</span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993678590667126:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993678590667126:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993678590667126:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993678590667126:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993678854000433:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993678854000433:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993678854000433:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993678854000433:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993678854000433:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Exactly.
The difference is on the definition of the Church. I follow the one
that was held from the beginning. You prefer the post-16th century
definition. :-)</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993678590667126:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993678590667126:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993678590667126:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993678590667126:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993678854000433:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993678854000433:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993678854000433:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993678854000433:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993679094000409:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993679094000409:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993679094000409:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993679094000409:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993679157333736:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993679157333736:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993679157333736:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993679157333736:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">It's
pretty likely that I will be critiquing your book to some extent. I've
been waiting for an intelligent non-anti-Catholic critique of
Catholicism since Geisler's excellent book some 20 years ago now.</span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="color: blue;"><br /><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"></span></span></span></span></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993679094000409:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993679094000409:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993679094000409:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993679094000409:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993679094000409:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Question begging as you surely know. If not, I can't help you.</span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993679094000409:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993679094000409:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993679094000409:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993679094000409:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993679814000337:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993679814000337:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993679814000337:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993679814000337:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I
was simply stating my beliefs held in faith. Rest assured that I can
defend them at extreme length (from the Bible and history). And I can
criticize your ecclesiology at extreme length as well (from the Bible
and history): none of which would be question-begging at all.</span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993679094000409:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993679094000409:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993679094000409:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993679094000409:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993679157333736:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993679157333736:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993680624000256:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993680624000256:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993680624000256:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993680624000256:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I
still await an answer as to what is so unecumenical in a Catholic
holding his views, yet respecting Protestants as Christian brethren.</span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"></span></span></span></span>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993695860665399:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993695860665399:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody _1n4g" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993695860665399:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993695860665399:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993695860665399:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">[C]ultivate
that great virtue, faith, which I acknowledge may be possessed in the
Anglican Church; which, knowing your earnestness and sincerity, I will
believe you possess in it, if you tell me so. This is not inconsistent
with my holding that in rea</span></span><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993695860665399:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993695860665399:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993695860665399:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">lity
there is ’no medium between scepticism and Catholicism --’ and on the
contrary quite consistent with my saying that if you join us, it must be
’to save your soul' . . . </span><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993695860665399:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993695860665399:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993695860665399:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">(Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman to an Unknown Correspondent, beginning of 1871?; from <i>Letters & Diaries</i>, v. 25, p. 261)</span></span></span></span></span></span></blockquote>
<br />
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody _1n4g" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Well, I'd say thinking a fellow Christian's views are flimsy, illogical and unbiblical is not very ecumenical. </span></span><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">To paraphrase my actual counter-argument earlier:</span></span><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">"Well,
I'd say thinking a fellow Christian's worship every Sunday is the
worship of Ba'al, sacrilegious, idolatrous, and blasphemous is not very
ecumenical." </span><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$8:0">I
mean, I only think Roman views are unbiblical and flimsy, but I am
inclined to think you can be consistent, given your assumptions.</span></span><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$12:0">So
now we disagree on only one of the three (and we don't <i>really</i> even disagree on <i>that</i>). I have already stated that I
think Calvinism is consistent, given its assumptions. I'd say the same
for Arminianism (my old view, and similar to my Molinist [Congruist]
soteriology now). So we're in exactly the same boat vis-a-vis each
other's views. Yet you seem to think we are not.</span><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$13:0" /><span style="color: blue;"><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$16:0">I do moreover, believe you hold essential biblical truth, even if I think you hold a lot that is not.</span></span><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$17:0" /><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$19:0" /><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$20:0">. . . which is exactly what the Catholic Church and Catholics think of Protestantism and Protestants.</span><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$21:0" /><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$23:0" /><span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$24:0">I also think you are a member of the one true church, . . .</span></span><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$25:0" /><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$27:0" /><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$28:0">As we do you, though in an imperfect, not fully realized sense; by virtue of baptismal regeneration.</span><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$29:0" /><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$31:0" /><span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$32:0">and would gladly invite you to share the sacrament at my church.</span></span><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$33:0" /><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$35:0" /><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703697331282:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$36:0">A
nice gesture . . . Closed communion, however, is not inherently
"intolerant." Thus, some Protestants, such as Lutherans, practice it, on
the basis of assumed prior doctrinal agreement.</span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"></span></span></span></span>
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I have no intention of getting into these issues here.</span></span><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">No
need to, Jerry. I just demonstrated that we are no different at all, in
terms of ecumenical outlook. We have theological differences, but not
ecumenical ones (nothing serious, anyway).</span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"></span></span></span></span>
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703760664609:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703760664609:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703760664609:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703760664609:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"> <span style="color: blue;">I am co-authoring a book explaining why I am not a Roman Catholic. If you want to know my views you can read them there.</span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703760664609:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703760664609:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703760664609:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993703760664609:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I will, and I will in all likelihood respond. </span></span></span></span><br />
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<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"></span></span></span></span>
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<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"></span></span></span></span>
<span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5k.1:4:1:$comment993339054034413_993704917331160:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"></span></span></span></span>Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-27694597918642625312015-04-29T15:03:00.000-04:002015-08-05T15:04:02.711-04:00What I LIKE About Calvinism and Calvinists<div style="text-align: center;">
By Dave Armstrong (June 2009)</div>
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<span style="color: black; font-family: inherit;">I have a rather high view of Calvinism and many Calvinists. I state this in several places on my website. I "hate" certain beliefs or strands of Calvinism (particularly supralapsarianism) - as I hate all error -, but other aspects I highly admire (the scholarly approach, the more historically oriented view, the retention of sacramentalism, the appreciation for Covenant theology, a superior ecclesiology to many evangelicals, a concern for self-consistency, a high view of the majesty and Providence of God, an exceptional and praiseworthy interest in theology and apologetics, the Lordship salvation view, emphasis on cultural and political aspects of Christianity, etc., etc.).</span><br />
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<span style="color: black; font-family: inherit;">Francis Schaeffer was and is a huge influence on me, as was Charles Colson, J. I. Packer, Berkouwer and many other Calvinists. I often listen to R. C. Sproul on the radio and receive much benefit from him (I think he is a wonderful teacher). I have two friends now who attend John Piper's church. I visited a Calvinist pastor and his wife in another state in 1997. I have a very good Baptist Calvinist pastor friend who runs a Christian bookstore and thinks highly of me (I worked for him for a while). I have many cordial debates with Calvinists on my site. I could go on and on.</span><br />
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<a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6422857" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"></a><a href="http://biblicalcatholicism.com/"><img alt="http://biblicalcatholicism.com/" border="0" src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4AdVHvNyPDU/VcDQegSlArI/AAAAAAAAJGc/xFxb37i1Z4c/s1600/Square%2BAd%2B%255B250%2Bx%2B250%255D.jpg" title="" /></a></div>
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<span style="color: black; font-family: inherit;">I can seek to understand something better if I basically disagree with it (at least in the sense that it is not superior to Catholicism). Otherwise I couldn't have ever converted to Catholicism. I used to think <i>it</i> was much inferior to evangelicalism (though I never hated <i>Catholicism</i> either), but I actually took the time to learn more about it, and I was persuaded.</span><br />
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Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-32764704673064043722015-04-29T12:10:00.002-04:002015-08-10T00:47:54.620-04:00Dialogue with a Baptist Pastor on Whether Infant Baptism is Indicated in the New Testament<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
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By Dave Armstrong (4-29-15)<br />
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This occurred on a <a href="https://www.facebook.com/jnallee/posts/10205614965267865">public Facebook page</a>, that shared a post I had shared, having to do with <a href="http://baptistnews.com/faith/theology/item/30022-baptist-pastor-in-ohio-baptizes-infant">a Baptist pastor baptizing an infant</a>. The pastor's words will be in <span style="color: blue;">blue</span>. I made a dumb and unnecessary remark (though not intended as a <i>personal attack</i>) that offended the pastor. I later apologized for it, and explained exactly what I meant (and he decided to return and continue the discussion), but here I include only the <i>theological</i> exchanges.</div>
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<span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">I
do Baby Dedications, which is really more about Parent Dedication than
anything else. Jesus told us to "Go... make and baptizo (not really
the proper tense but it'll have to do for now) Disciples..." (baptizo =
submerge... same word used for the </span></span><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">process
of dying cloth... same word for describing a capsized or sunken fishing
boat)... Jesus didn't give us an example of baptizing infants, he gave
us an example of Baptism as the first act of obedience of a believer.
an infant cannot change his mind about sin and self determination, or
believe that Jesus died for them.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I'll just go with what Jesus said...</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
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<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Yeah, me, too; and with what the Bible says about infant baptism:</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0"><b>Acts 16:15</b> (RSV) . . . she was baptized, <span style="color: red;">with her</span> <span style="color: red;">household</span>, . . . </span></span><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0"><b>Acts 16:33</b> . . . he was baptized at once, <span style="color: red;">with all his family</span>.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$7:0" />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$8:0"><b>Acts
18:8</b> Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, <span style="color: red;">
together with all his household</span>; and many of the Corinthians hearing
Paul believed and were baptized.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$11:0" />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$12:0"><b>1 Corinthians 1:16</b> (I did baptize also <span style="color: red;">the household of Steph'anas</span>. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any one else.)</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></blockquote>
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><br data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$16:0">
Many biblical passages connect household and children (if indeed such a
demonstration is necessary, so obvious is it: especially for that
culture and time):</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$20:0"><b>Genesis
18:19</b> No, for I have chosen him, that he may charge his children and
his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing
righteousness and justice . . . (cf. 31:41)</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$23:0" />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$24:0"><b>Genesis 36:6</b> Then Esau took his wives, his sons, his daughters, and all the members of his household, . . . </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$27:0" />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$28:0"><b>Genesis
47:12</b> And Joseph provided his father, his brothers, and all his
father's household with food, according to the number of their
dependents.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$31:0" />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$32:0"><b>Numbers
18:11</b> . . . I have given them to you, and to your sons and daughters
with you, as a perpetual due; every one who is clean in your house may
eat of it.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$35:0" />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$36:0"><b>1 Chronicles 10:6</b> Thus Saul died; he and his three sons and all his house died together.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$39:0" />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$40:0"><b>Matthew
19:29</b> And every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters or
father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a
hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. (cf. Mk 10:30)</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$43:0" />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$44:0"><b>1 Timothy 3:12</b> Let deacons be the husband of one wife, and let them manage their children and their households well;</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></blockquote>
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><br data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$47:0" /><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$48:0">In other biblical passages, entire households are referred to as being saved:</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$52:0"><b>Luke 19:9</b> And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham.”</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$55:0" />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$56:0"><b>Acts 11:14</b> he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$59:0" />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630084885846:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630090285981:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630121006749:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$60:0"><b>Acts 16:31</b> And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.</span></span></span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></blockquote>
<br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"></span><span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">That's a pretty long leap if you are going to be honest with the text.</span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Do you want to actually make arguments against these passages or be content with one sweeping proclamation that is no argument?</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630156607639:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630156607639:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630156607639:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630156607639:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$0:0">Then of course there is also the analogy of infant baptism to circumcision: an argument that John Calvin makes at great length.</span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630175648115:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630175648115:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"></span><span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630175648115:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630175648115:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630175648115:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">You
might want to do a little diagramming of the acts passages you
partially quoted and include the entire passage not simply lifting a
word or two.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630182448285:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630182448285:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630182448285:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630182448285:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Okay, cool, Pastor [Name]. Show us how all those passages are out-of-context. That should be fun.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;">Y<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630182448285:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630182448285:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630182448285:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630182448285:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630249249955:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630249249955:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630249249955:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630249249955:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630249249955:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">ou
made the leap from acts 16: "and their household too" which is
probably the better English translation that it must include their
infant children. It could mean adult children, they may have had no
children... you are using a general term to make</span></span><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630249249955:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630249249955:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630249249955:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">
a specific point. Just from memory from my Greek classes, I believe
the "and their household too" refers back to " they believed" a few
verses earlier... I can pull out my diagrams if you need help.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">So you maintain that whenever households are mentioned in connection with baptism, these could not have <i>ever</i> included children?</span></span></span></span><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630272130527:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630272130527:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630272130527:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630272130527:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"> </span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630272130527:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630272130527:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630272130527:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630272130527:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><br /></span></span></span></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630272130527:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630272130527:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630272130527:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630272130527:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I'm not going to trade the plain and simple meaning of words for the hypothetical. </span></span></span></span><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630279170703:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630279170703:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630279170703:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630279170703:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Show me where Jesus baptized an infant, or told us to baptize infants and I'll change my mind.</span></span></span></span></span><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630272130527:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.6"></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630371333007:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630371333007:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630371333007:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630371333007:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630371333007:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I just showed how the Bible massively does. </span></span></span></span><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630381213254:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630381213254:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630381213254:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630381213254:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630381213254:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Also,
where in the Bible are we told that we can believe nothing that Jesus
did not specifically or explicitly address? Paul dealt with other
things in a depth of specificity that Jesus never did (as, I think, we
would fully expect).</span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630371333007:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630371333007:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630371333007:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630371333007:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630376013124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630376013124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630376013124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630376013124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630376013124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630376013124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">I
also don't buy the premise that Circumcision being equal to and being
replaced by Baptism as far as infants go. I believe that's taking the
parallel too far. Circumcision was the identifying mark of the Jews in
Covenant relationship with God a rela</span></span><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630376013124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630376013124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630376013124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">tionship
which begins at at birth. Baptism is the first act of obedience of a
believer a relationship which begins when one believes (or repents
"metanoia), if you will allow me to use that word). Both are indeed
identifying acts of obedience but each is dependent upon when the
relationship begins. And since I don't believe infants can repent, I
don't baptize infants.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630371333007:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630371333007:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630371333007:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630371333007:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630392813544:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630392813544:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630392813544:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630392813544:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">You
are assuming that this is true in absolutely every case; just as we are
assuming that "households" generally included infants.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630371333007:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630371333007:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630371333007:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630371333007:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630392813544:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630392813544:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630392813544:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630392813544:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630392093526:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630392093526:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630392093526:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630392093526:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630397253655:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630397253655:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630397253655:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630397253655:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">How could it be different? [It] seems pretty specific to me. </span></span></span></span>In
issues of salvation, and direct relationship with God, Jesus is the
ultimate authority, and the final word. in issues of Christian living
and sanctification... Sure I'll go with Paul James and Peter. but if
you are saying that Paul gives a different gospel or another way to be
saved than Jesus taught... I'd be careful with that line of thinking</span></span></span></span>. </span></span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630399133702:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630399133702:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630399133702:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630399133702:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630399133702:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">Yeah, I know you said that. I asked, where in the <i>Bible</i> is such a notion found? </span></span><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630399133702:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630399133702:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630399133702:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">I said nothing about a <i>different </i>Pauline gospel: only a <i>more fully explained </i>one.</span></span></span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Jesus also taught baptismal regeneration, which Baptists deny:</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0"> <b>Mark 16:16</b> He who believes and is baptized <span style="color: red;">will be saved</span>; but he who does not believe will be condemned.</span></span><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></blockquote>
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><br data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">Paul seems to imply an organic connection between baptism (washed), sanctification and justification.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$8:0">
<b>Titus 3:5</b> he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in
righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by <span style="color: red;">the washing of
regeneration</span> and renewal in the Holy Spirit,</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></blockquote>
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><br data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$12:0">Compare this to<b> John 3:5</b>: </span><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$16:0">Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, unless a man is <span style="color: red;">born of water
</span>and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. (cf. 3:3:
"unless a man is born again ...")</span><br data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$17:0" /><br data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$19:0" /><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$20:0">The two passages are almost exactly parallel:</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$24:0"> Titus: "saved" / John: "enter the kingdom of God"</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$26:0"> Titus: "washing of rebirth" / John: "born of water"</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630414054075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$28:0"> Titus: "renewal by the Holy Spirit" / John: "born . . . of the Spirit"</span></span></span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"></span></span></span></span></blockquote>
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<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><br /></span></span></span></span></span></div>
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><br /></span></span></span></span></span>
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">And the NT teaches baptismal regeneration and salvation through baptism:</span></span></span></span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">
<b>Acts 2:38-39</b> And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be <span style="color: red;">baptized</span> every
one of you in the name of Jesus Christ <span style="color: red;">for the forgiveness of your sins</span>;</span></span><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"></span></span></span></span></span> [39] For the promise is to you <span style="color: red;">and to your children</span> and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him." <br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"></span></span></span></span></span><br data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">
<b>1 Peter 3:18-21</b> For Christ also died for sins once for all, the
righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put
to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and
preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when
God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the
ark, in which a few, that is, <span style="color: red;">eight persons, were saved through water.
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you</span>, not as a removal of
dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience,
through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,</span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"></span></span></span></span></span><br data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$7:0" />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$8:0"> <b>Acts 22:16</b> And now why do you wait? Rise and <span style="color: red;">be baptized, and wash away your sins</span>, calling on his name.'</span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"></span></span></span></span></span><br data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$11:0" />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$12:0">
<b>Romans 6:3-4 </b>Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into
Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore <span style="color: red;">buried
with him through baptism into death in order that</span>, just as Christ was
raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, <span style="color: red;">we too may live a
new life</span>. (cf. Romans 8:11, 1 Cor 15:20-23, Col 2:11-13)</span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"></span></span></span></span></span><br data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$15:0" />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630417334157:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$16:0">
<b>1 Corinthians 6:11</b> And such were some of you. But <span style="color: red;">you were washed,
you were sanctified, you were justified</span> in the name of the Lord Jesus
Christ and in the Spirit of our God.</span></span></span></span></span></span></blockquote>
<br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630425134352:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630425134352:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630425134352:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630425134352:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">
<span style="color: blue;">I believe what I believe because I have studied scripture for decades,
not because I read a theology book once and picked a side. </span></span></span></span></span><span style="color: blue;">I<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630427294406:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630427294406:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630427294406:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630427294406:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"> have a class to teach in about 30 min. We can pick this up tomorrow.</span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630425134352:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630425134352:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630425134352:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630425134352:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630460375233:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630460375233:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630460375233:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630460375233:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630460375233:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I believe what I believe because I have studied Scripture for decades, too: very intensely and continuously since 1981. </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630451295006:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630451295006:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630451295006:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630451295006:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">Meanwhile,
there are several questions I asked, and lines of argument, that you
have either passed over altogether or (with all due respect) have not
adequately addressed.</span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630425134352:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630425134352:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630425134352:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630425134352:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630452055025:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630452055025:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"></span><span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630452055025:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630452055025:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630452055025:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">"For
God so loved the world that He gave His one and only son. That who
ever believes in Him, will not perish, but will be given eternal life"
Jesus... Jn 3:16. If [salvation] was by baptism, don't you think Jesus
would have included it here?</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630425134352:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630425134352:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630425134352:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630425134352:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630455815119:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630455815119:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630455815119:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630455815119:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Not all theology can appear in any given verse. The same Jesus stated elsewhere: </span><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630455815119:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><b>Mark 16:16</b> "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630425134352:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630425134352:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630425134352:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630425134352:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630455815119:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630455815119:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630455815119:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630455815119:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630509496461:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630509496461:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630509496461:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630509496461:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630509496461:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630509496461:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">With regard to
the argument made from Jn 3:16: Peter, too, is preaching the gospel in
the first Christian sermon in Acts 2, on the Day of Pentecost; and what
does he include in his entire proclamation?: "Repent, and<i> be baptized</i>
every one of you in the name of Jesu</span></span><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630509496461:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630509496461:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630509496461:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">s Christ for the forgiveness of your sins" (Acts 2:38).</span><br data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630509496461:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630509496461:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630509496461:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">The
baptism <i>brings about</i> regeneration. It's not merely a symbolic act
after regeneration has occurred: ". . . <b><i>for</i></b> the forgiveness . . . ". Baptism
is the <i>agent</i> or <i>means </i>of regeneration. </span><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630509496461:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$8:0">Peter makes the idea of salvation through baptism even more clear in 1 Peter 3:18-21.</span></span></span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630425134352:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630425134352:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630425134352:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630425134352:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630455815119:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630455815119:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630455815119:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630455815119:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205631327196903:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205631327196903:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205631327196903:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205631327196903:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205631327196903:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I
am curious to see how those who believe in adult, believer's baptism
deal with all the passages that sure appear to suggest infant baptism.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630425134352:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630425134352:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630425134352:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630425134352:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630455815119:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630455815119:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630455815119:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630455815119:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205631327196903:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205631327196903:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205631327196903:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205631327196903:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">See also this article by a traditional Presbyterian (OPC):<a href="http://www.opc.org/new_horizons/NH00/0007c.html"> The Biblical Basis for Infant Baptism</a>. </span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205631630164477:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205631630164477:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205631630164477:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205631630164477:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205631630164477:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">There
is a reason (probably dozens of reasons) that this has been a debate
between Catholics, Calvinists, and Armenians and many sub-groups and
denominations over the last 400 years. I can quote </span></span><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205631630164477:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205631630164477:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205631630164477:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">all
the proof texts for what I believe, and others can counter with proof
texts of their own. . . . If you want actual answers to
actual questions I will be happy to respond with factual honest biblical
translation and interpretation from my point of view.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205632878835693:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205632878835693:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205632878835693:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205632878835693:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205632878835693:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205632878835693:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$12:0">As
an evangelical [1977-1990], I believed exactly as you do, and was "baptized" (full
immersion) at age 24. I believe my <i>actual</i> baptism, however, was as a
baby in the Methodist church.</span></span></span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630255130102:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><br /></span></span></span></span>
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205632878835693:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205632878835693:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205632878835693:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205632878835693:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205632878835693:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205632878835693:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$24:0">I
still am very curious how the passages I produced can be plausibly,
consistently exegeted in a way that avoids the implication of infant
baptism. Simply dismissing them all with a line or two does not do that.</span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Ok. The passages in question are</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">Acts
16:15 The conversion of Lydia. I prefer to use the entire passage of
thought rather than just lifting a partial quote from one phrase… 14 One
who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a
seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her
heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. 15 And after she was
baptized, and her household as well, she urged us, saying, “If you have
judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” And
she prevailed upon us."</span></span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$8:0">I
don't see what difference more context makes. The fact remains that her
whole household was baptized. And that <i>very likely</i> included children.
It's not <i>absolutely certain</i>, but quite likely: far more likely than <i>not</i>.
It's extremely difficult and implausible to argue that none of these
"households" mentioned in conjunction with baptism contained any
infants. Presbyterian commentator Matthew Henry writes about this verse:</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$12:0">She
was baptized, and by this solemn rite was admitted a member of the
church of Christ; and with her her household also was baptized, those of
them that were infants in her right, for if the root be holy so are the
branches, and those that were grown up by her influence and authority.
She and her household were baptized by the same rule that Abraham and
his household were circumcised, because the seal of the covenant belongs
to the covenanters and their seed.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></blockquote>
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$16:0">John Wesley comments in his <i>Explanatory Notes</i>:</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$20:0">She
was baptized and her family - Who can believe that in so many families
there was no infant? Or that the Jews, who were so long accustomed to
circumcise their children, would not now devote them to God by baptism?</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></blockquote>
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$23:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$24:0"><i>The Catholic Encyclopedia (</i>1913), "Baptism" states:</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$28:0">When
the Redeemer declares (John 3) that it is necessary to be born again of
water and the Holy Ghost in order to enter the Kingdom of God, His
words may be justly understood to mean that He includes all who are
capable of having a right to this kingdom. Now, He has asserted such a
right even for those who are not adults, when He says (Matthew 19:14):
"Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come to me: for the
kingdom of heaven is for such." It has been objected that this latter
text does not refer to infants, inasmuch as Christ says "to come to me".
In the parallel passage in St. Luke (18:15), however, the text reads:
"And they brought unto him also infants, that he might touch them"; and
then follow the words cited from St. Matthew. In the Greek text, the
words brephe and prosepheron refer to infants in arms. </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$31:0" />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$32:0">. . . The tradition of Christian antiquity as to the necessity of infant baptism is clear from the very beginning. . . . </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$35:0" />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$36:0">Origen
(in cap. vi, Ep. ad Rom.) declares: "The Church received from the
Apostles the tradition of giving baptism also to infants".</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$39:0" />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$40:0">St.
Augustine (Serm. xi, De Verb Apost.) says of infant baptism: "This the
Church always had, always held; this she received from the faith of our
ancestors; this she perseveringly guards even to the end."</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$43:0" />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652174598075:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$44:0">St.
Cyprian (Epistle 58) writes: "From baptism and from grace . . . must
not be kept the infant who, because recently born, has committed no sin,
except, inasmuch as it was born carnally from Adam, it has contracted
the contagion of the ancient death in its first nativity; and it comes
to receive the remission of sins more easily on this very account that
not its own, but another's sins are forgiven it."</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></blockquote>
<br />
<span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Your argument is that she and her infant child(ren) were baptized and therefore saved.</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">1. In the previous verse, she was already a worshipper of God when she met Paul.</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$8:0">2. Also in verse 14 her heart was opened prior to her baptism.</span></span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$12:0">Yes,
of course. For the adult believer, such faith will precede baptism. In
the Catholic Church, those being received who have never been baptized,
make a profession of faith before they receive the sacrament: not unlike
the Baptist "believer's baptism." But this doesn't <i>exclude </i>infants <i>also</i>
receiving baptism.</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$13:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$16:0">3.
“Her household too” could refer to anyone in her household, this is not
proof that she had an infant child, or that infant children lived with
her. Of course it is possible, but, by no means necessary.</span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span style="color: blue;"><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$19:0" /></span><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$20:0">As
I said, it's much more likely than not. The implausibility lies in the
claim that <i>none</i> of these households mentioned contained <i>any</i> infants or
<i>anyone under the age of reason</i>. That strains credulity to the breaking
point.</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$21:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$23:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$24:0">A.
T. Robertson (Baptist) wrote about this passage: "In the household
baptisms (Cornelius, Lydia, the jailor, Crispus) one sees 'infants' or
not according to his predilections or preferences."</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$25:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$27:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$28:0">Yes,
they do. But I'm saying that it's much more implausible to deny any and
all infants in these passages than to posit them as a likelihood.</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$29:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$31:0" /><span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$32:0">But
we use the plain and clear meaning of words rather than the
hypothetical or possible meaning of words to interpret the meaning of
scripture. </span></span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$33:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$35:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$36:0">This
is not <i>merely</i> a hypothetical, but rather, an extremely
straightforward deduction. I have already provided several passages that
easily connect children with the notion of a household.</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$37:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$39:0" /><span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$40:0">The
plain and clear meaning of the Greek word <i>oikos</i> here is family. I
assume you know families who do not constantly have infant children. </span></span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$41:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$43:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$44:0">Yep.
And in biblical times, in a society that believed in having lots of
children, there would likely be many children of a young age if the
mothers were of childbearing age, as we see in (relatively rare) large
families today. My wife Judy and I have four children. Our youngest, the
only daughter, was born when I was 43, and my wife almost 43. So our
"household" that year, at age 43, included a newborn, and 10-, 8-, and
5-year-old boys.</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$45:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$47:0" /><span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$48:0">So therefore it is a theological leap to make the word family mean that infant children of Lydia were necessarily baptized.</span></span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$49:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$51:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$52:0">No
one is saying it is "necessarily." But you are making the implausible
leap here, not us. Believers' baptism of adults is not at all
inconsistent with what <i>we</i> believe, but infant baptism is completely
inconsistent with what <i>you</i> believe. So you have to alternately interpret
these (I think straightforward) verses, and I submit that it's very
difficult to do so, whereas we have no difficulty at all incorporating
adult baptisms. They are in a different category, but they don't <i>
preclude</i> infant baptisms.</span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$52:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">As
a side note… It is also possible to translate verse 15 that it was her
entire household that urged Paul and his companions to stay with them.
It’s not the most likely most logical translation but if you are
ignoring the logical order of the Greek verb and subject you could
interpret it as her entire household urged them to stay with them. But
there is reason we use rules for biblical interpretation. Ie… we use
plain and clear passages to clarify those that are less plain and less
clear.</span></span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">I
agree with the latter comment. I think this is <i>very</i> clear: that a
biblical household, in a culture that highly valued procreation and
children, very often included infants. In our times, not as likely, but
then and there, yes.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$52:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Next</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">Acts
16:33… Again it is very helpful to read the entire thought in Scripture
rather than lifting a few words out of the text. We call that “out of
context”</span></span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$8:0">And
that is the most often-used retort there is: frequently a bum rap. We
Bible people also call citation of individual or a few passages
"systematic theology." There is nothing wrong with that. More context
can always be provided, and all parties acknowledge it. I am
constantly consulting immediate context in order to overthrow over-used
Protestant prooftexts. Oftentimes, the answer to the bad argument lies
in the verse before or after the one given.</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$12:0">Few
people are more aware of how context is butchered, than apologists like
myself. We deal with prooftexts (in my case, for some brand of
Protestantism and purportedly against Catholicism) all the time.</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$13:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$16:0">It
doesn't, in any event, make it wrong to highlight one verse in a
collection of texts having relevance to a sub-topic (i.e., systematic
theology). A quick perusal of well-known texts of systematic theology
(e.g., Strong, Hodge, even St. Thomas Aquinas' <i>Summa Theologica</i>) will make this evident, for
anyone who doubts what I am saying. It would be foolish for someone to
claim that every single verse cited is "out-of-context."</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$17:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$19:0" /><span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$20:0">Acts 16:29–34 (ESV)</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$21:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$23:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$24:0">29
And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear
he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and
said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in
the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 And
they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds;
and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. 34 Then he brought
them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along
with his entire household that he had believed in God.</span></span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$25:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$27:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$28:0">Once
again, this has no bearing <i>against</i> possible <i>infant</i> baptism. The adults
and those above the age of reason present would obviously profess faith
before being baptized. The false assumption is to apply that to <b><i>all</i></b>
baptisms.</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$29:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$31:0" /><span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$32:0">Your
argument is again that the Phillipian Jailor had infant children who
were baptized and that it was the baptism that saved them. </span></span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$33:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$35:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$36:0">That
baptism saves and regenerates is based on another batch of verses that I
have already provided. Another principle of Bible interpretation (as
you well know) is to cross-reference and to incorporate all relevant
data. And with regard to baptism, this includes very clear references to
regeneration and/or salvation as a result of baptism. And of course
that is virtually unanimous patristic teaching. To deny baptismal
regeneration came only with early heretics and non-Lutheran so-called
"reformers" in the 16th century. It's a late, man-made, non-apostolic
tradition.</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$37:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$39:0" /><span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$40:0">I
could see that if you ignore the previous verses that “they “Believed”
which precludes “and they were baptized”. The answer Paul gave to the
jailor who asked “what must I do to be saved?” was “Believe in the Lord
Jesus Christ, and you will be saved". He did not say and be baptized.
Yes they were baptized, not as a condition of salvation but as a
reaction to salvation.</span></span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$41:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$43:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$44:0">That's
how <i>you</i> interpret it, but again, you must somehow counter-exegete the
various clear references elsewhere to baptismal regeneration. Different
parties can variously interpret the relation of belief and baptism here.
Yours doesn't lack all plausibility. But I think when we
cross-reference, we can see that baptism supernaturally brings about
entrance into the kingdom of God and salvation. </span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$45:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$47:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$48:0">I already mentioned Acts 2:38-39 in this connection. Here it is again:</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$52:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$52:0"><b>Acts
2:38-39</b> (RSV) And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every
one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;
and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. [39] For the promise
is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one
whom the Lord our God calls to him." </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$52:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></blockquote>
<span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$52:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$55:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$56:0">Now,
of course, you say the <i>repentance only</i> brings about the forgiveness and
salvation and reception of the Holy Spirit, and the baptism is mere
symbol. I say it is just as, if not <i>more</i> plausible to interpret this
(especially in light of other verses) as baptism having <i>as much</i> relation to
forgiveness as the repentance does.</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$57:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$59:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$60:0">In
other words, here Peter <b><i>does</i></b> seem to connect salvation and baptism. The
fact remains that the Philippian jailer was baptized as soon as
possible. This is not inconsistent with what we (and Lutherans,
Orthodox, etc.) teach. It's just not spelled out as explicitly as it is
in Acts 2:38-39.</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$61:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$63:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$64:0">Nor
is "just believe" all that ever has to be done in order to be saved or
gain eternal life. The rich young ruler asked almost exactly the same
question, and Jesus didn't tell Him, "just believe in Me!" Rather, He
said the following:</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$52:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$68:0"><b>Luke
18:18, 20-27</b> And a ruler asked him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do
to inherit eternal life?" . . . [20] You know the commandments: `Do not
commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness,
Honor your father and mother.'" [21] And he said, "All these I have
observed from my youth." [22] And when Jesus heard it, he said to him,
"One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the
poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." [23]
But when he heard this he became sad, for he was very rich. [24] Jesus
looking at him said, "How hard it is for those who have riches to enter
the kingdom of God! [25] For it is easier for a camel to go through the
eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." [26]
Those who heard it said, "Then who can be saved?" [27] But he said,
"What is impossible with men is possible with God." </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$52:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></blockquote>
<span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$52:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$71:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652528966934:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$72:0">That's
a <b><i>far</i></b> cry from "just believe!" isn't it? Therefore, if various acts and
works are involved in being saved (all by and through God's grace,
always), then baptism is not excluded from being <i>one</i> of these. And from
the biblical data elsewhere, we see that it certainly <i>is </i>included in the
whole mix of salvation.</span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$52:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652553807555:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652553807555:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652553807555:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652553807555:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">The Ethiopian eunuch does the same thing in Acts 8: he gets baptized. </span><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652553807555:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">Moreover, we see what happened in the case of adult convert Paul. He gives his <i>own account</i> of what happened:</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$52:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652553807555:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652553807555:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652553807555:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652553807555:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$8:0"><b>Acts
22:10-16</b> And I said, `What shall I do, Lord?' And the Lord said to me,
`Rise, and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all that is
appointed for you to do.' [11] And when I could not see because of the
brightness of that light, I was led by the hand by those who were with
me, and came into Damascus. [12] "And one Anani'as, a devout man
according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there,
[13] came to me, and standing by me said to me, `Brother Saul, receive
your sight.' And in that very hour I received my sight and saw him. [14]
And he said, `The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to
see the Just One and to hear a voice from his mouth; [15] for you will
be a witness for him to all men of what you have seen and heard. [16]
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins,
calling on his name.' </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$52:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652553807555:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652553807555:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652553807555:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></blockquote>
<span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$52:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652553807555:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652553807555:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652553807555:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652553807555:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652553807555:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$12:0">The
first thing Paul did was get baptized, and what did the baptism <i>do</i>?
"Wash away your sins." There is no way <i>out</i> of that. It would require an
unnatural, eisegetical attempt to separate the "wash[ing]" here from
baptism. This is baptismal regeneration: expressly taught by the apostle
Paul.</span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$52:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$0:0">Again
this is the plain and clear meaning of the words. But the phrase in
verse 34 “he rejoiced along with his entire “panoikei” (everyone under
his authority) what were they rejoicing over? That they had believed in
God… </span></span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$4:0">That's
clear enough from the passage, but it does nothing whatever to rule out
infant baptism. Abraham was circumcised as an adult. It didn't follow
that he and Moses <i>didn't </i>teach that<i> infants</i> were to be circumcised.</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$7:0" /><span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$8:0">now
my question is, can infants express joy over a specific belief? Those
of us with children will tell you that while we may have generally happy
infants, they cannot make a self determination to believe that the sky
is blue, to believe in God, to believe 10+10=20, or anything else, the
word believe is pretty specific here.</span></span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$12:0">They
cannot, but it's irrelevant. The adult convert can do so. You apply the
particular of the adult convert to all baptism scenarios, and that is
illogical and circular argumentation.</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$13:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$15:0" /><span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$16:0">and
Acts 18:8. I'm adding verse 7 just because I love this story and it
adds a bit of flavor to the passage. 7 And he left there and went to the
house of a man named Titius Justus, a worshiper of God. His house was
next door to the synagogue. 8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue,
believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of
the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$17:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$19:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$20:0">Much the same as the previous verses and no need to repeat the “household” could but not must include infant children. </span></span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$21:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$23:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$24:0">Even
<i> you</i> admit (as you must), that "household" could <i>possibly</i> include
children. If it does, then infant baptism is taught in the NT. It seems
like a huge stretch to hang your hat on these scenarios where you have
to hold that no household included an infant. Sorry, I just don't find
it a credible claim.</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$25:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$27:0" /><span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$28:0">But
I will point out that in every passage we’ve looked at so far the
belief precedes the baptism, and by my translation and interpretation is
a reaction to it not a condition of it. Baptism is the first act of
obedience for these believers.</span></span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$29:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$31:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$32:0">But
we can also make a further distinction of repentance and belief, <b><i>then</i></b>
baptism, <b><i>then</i></b> received forgiveness of sins and salvation (regeneration).
That was the order in Acts 2:38-39: </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$52:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$32:0"><br /></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span>
<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$52:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$32:0">1) repentance, </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$52:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$32:0">2) baptism, </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$52:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$32:0">3)
forgiveness of sins, </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$52:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$32:0">and </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$52:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$32:0">4) reception of the Holy Spirit. </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></blockquote>
<span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652238559674:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$52:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652426204365:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$32:0"><br />A person
(beyond the age of reason) must repent to be saved, but surely if they
have not yet received forgiveness of sins (reconciliation) or the Holy
Spirit (Whom all Christian believers possess), they are not yet a
Christian abiding in God's grace as His friend and child. And this is
the order of things that Acts 2:38-39 teaches us.</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$33:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$35:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$36:0">It's
the same with the Apostle Paul in Acts 22:16. He is baptized, and <i><b>then</b></i> his sins are washed away: which has to take place in order for him to be
saved in the present sense and tense of the word, and regenerated.
These two instances directly contradict the Baptist schema and outlook
of how regeneration takes place in Holy Scripture.</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$37:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$39:0" /><span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$40:0">Something
perplexes me about your augments. These are a few of the verses that
are historically used by certain theological camps as proof texts for
infant baptism and baptismal regeneration, but they are by far the
weakest of the arguments used by those from your point of view, there
are one or two passages that are more problematic for the “uneducated
and un-equipped Baptist” I’m just curious why you chose the weakest of
your arguments and not the strongest?</span></span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$41:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$43:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$44:0">Not
having infinite time, I drew them from my book, <i>Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths</i>. What are these better arguments you refer to? We must
bring them in too! <span class="emoticon emoticon_smile" title=":-)"></span> I have mentioned the analogy to circumcision and regeneration passages, including John 3.</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$45:0" /><span style="color: blue;"><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$47:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$48:0">Even
though one of my degrees is in Theology, I believe that much of our
“theology” is just finding ways to argue with God, I believe it is much
better if we just let scripture speak for itself and for God. </span></span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$49:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$51:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$52:0">I
couldn't agree more. I find the biblical evidence compelling and
profoundly in favor of the Catholic view on baptism and everything else.
It's my specialty: biblical arguments for Catholicism. </span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$53:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$55:0" /><span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$56:0">And if that confuses our theological system then we should defer to scripture for what we believe and teach.</span></span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$57:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$59:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$60:0">Yes
we should. And I constantly do just that in my work. I just wrote an
article, to be published in a major Catholic magazine, providing more
than 50 biblical proofs in favor of veneration of the Blessed Virgin
Mary. I have found 50 in favor of Petrine Primacy, and 50 for the place
of works as the requirement to enter heaven. I love the Bible! There is
no book I more enjoy reading and studying. I even put out my own "version," utilizing good "KJV"-type English of other versions.</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$61:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$63:0" /><span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">I
wish I had more time to give a more thorough treatment of this subject
but if you will be patient I will respond as I have time and
opportunity. </span></span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$8:0">Sounds
good! I have compiled our dialogue into a back-and-forth exchange on my
blog (since this is already public). So far, I haven't mentioned your
name. If you want me to, I can do so, and provide whatever links you
would like.</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$12:0">You
specifically asked for my perspective on these passages. Hopefully my
schedule will relax a bit and we can continue a discussion at a relaxed
pace.</span></span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$13:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205652612169014:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$16:0">I
appreciate your time and effort very much, Pastor [Name], and the
opportunity to flesh out and develop my own arguments a bit. I have
enjoyed it, and hope we can continue.</span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"> </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">[see also the <a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/987339944634324">accompanying Facebook discussion</a> on my own page]</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">[will be continued if and when the pastor makes more arguments.]<br /><br />* * * * * </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><br /></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span>
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><br /></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span>
<br />
<span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630136007124:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1x.1:3:1:$comment10205614965267865_10205630151807519:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"> </span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span>Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.com15tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-73526473201199478972015-04-13T14:41:00.002-04:002015-08-10T00:45:09.565-04:00Broad Exchange with a Former Catholic, Bible-Only Protestant (vs. John Hallman)<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
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By Dave Armstrong (4-13-15)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br /></div>
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This occurred in the combox of an article I did at <i>Catholic365</i>: <a href="http://www.catholic365.com/article/1256/what-to-do-about-mediocre-milky-homilies-at-mass.html#comments">What to Do About Mediocre, Milky Homilies at Mass</a> (4-11-15). John Hallman's words will be in <span style="color: blue;">blue</span>.</div>
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<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
* * * * *</div>
<br />
<span style="color: blue;">Read the Bible, and teach it, and you can't go wrong.</span><br />
<br />
I agree! And teach it within the framework of approved Catholic
apostolic tradition, so there is no error, since the devil is the father
of lies.<br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;">Dave Armstrong LOL! Approved by the church
fathers. Men, in other words, who still to this day create new
"scripture"? Er, no thanks. I understand that to Catholics, the church
takes precedence and must be obeyed but as a non-Catholic, I take my
authority from God rather than men. That way, I can avoid those sticky
things like purgatory, holy water, Mary as a co-Redemtrix and assumed
into heaven. these kinds of things require some pretty agile Bible
gymnastics, and my back just isn't into it. Carry on, though Dave!</span><br />
<br />
I feel like a mosquito in a crowded locker room: where to <i>begin</i>?<br />
<br />
1. No new Scripture has been created. Where you got such a silly
notion, would be fun to find out. Only Holy Scripture is inspired. No
dif there.<br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;">Apologies, just seems like it with the seeming hierarchy of beliefs that are non-Biblical.</span><br />
<br />
Thanks for the apology, but <span style="color: blue;">"seems like it"</span> is inadequate to make such a
charge. You must <i>document </i>such [outlandish] charges. Once I called you on it, you
realized you couldn't, and retracted it, which is admirable. <br />
<br />
2. The Church doesn't take "precedence'; rather, we
believe in a "three-legged stool" rule of faith: Bible -
Church-Tradition. None is "above" the other, and all harmonize with each
other. In Protestantism, it is a free-for-all, with hundreds of
denominations (a completely unbiblical concept) offering contradictory
interpretations and doctrines: including several that can't be traced
back to the early Church or the Bible.<br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;">Apart from the (false) slam at Protestantism (great try, you're very
funny!), you are entitled to equating the church men with the Bible, but
I would politely disagree that there is basis for equivalency there.
Not to be trite, but when you equate "God says it", with "man says it"
and "we've always done it this way", it just seems like something is a
wee bit amiss."</span><br />
<br />
Nothing I said about Protestantism above is
false. It's all demonstrably true. No Protestant can deny that there are
massive internal contradictions, causing confusio<span class="text_exposed_show">n
among the flock and (logically necessary) error, in cases of
contradiction. Falsehood is not from God; it's from the devil. You have
yet to prove falsehood in Catholicism. But everyone knows that falsehood
is present in Protestantism <i>somewhere</i> -- simply from the presence of
<i>contradiction</i>. It's there, and it has a bad effect, as all untruths do.<br /> <br />
I merely noted that in our thinking, the Church isn't <i>above</i> the
Bible. That is the standard false stereotype. We believe that the Church
and tradition are necessary as <i>frameworks</i> for the proper, unified
<i>interpretation</i> of the Bible. <br /> <br /> <i>You're </i>the one who claimed you
were simply following<span style="color: blue;"> "God rather than men"</span> (standard Protestant
boilerplate rhetoric). I showed that it is not as simple as it sounds:
that you still must <i>interpret</i>, and when Protestants do that, they
invariably <i>disagree</i> with each other, and so someone is therefore <i>wrong</i>.</span> <br />
<br />
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<a href="http://biblicalcatholicism.com/"><img alt="http://biblicalcatholicism.com/" border="0" src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-D8SOhMkO_Wc/VcffWZ-3egI/AAAAAAAAJIM/ypyCkR_JBh0/s1600/Square%2BAd%2B%255B250%2Bx%2B250%255D.jpg" title="" /></a></div>
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<br />
3. God gave men authority in His Church to represent Him, starting with Peter. False dichotomy, but a very typical one.<br />
<br />
<span class="text_exposed_show"><span style="color: blue;">I've read those manly interpretations of
the Bible verses, and feel that they are still wrong. There is no
apostolic succession if you understand what an apostle was. False
assumption to justify the popes, but a very typical one.</span><br /> <br />
Really? So Jesus was wrong, when He said, "You are Peter [Rock] and upon
this rock I will build my Church"? [Matthew 16:18] <a href="http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/09/protestant-scholars-on-mt-1616-19.html">Many of the best Protestant commentators </a>concur that Peter (not just his faith) is the Rock. Thus,
God gave men authority over His Church. There are also bishops in the
Church, as the Bible repeatedly states. Who is <i>your</i> bishop?<br /> <br /> You
misunderstand apostolic succession. We're not saying that bishops<i> are</i>
apostles, but that they <i>succeed </i>the apostles. This is based on explicit
biblical example (Acts 1:20-26, where Judas was replaced). In Acts 1:20,
"office" (KJV) is "bishopric" in KJV (derived from the Greek, <i>episkopos</i>). Paul
also appears to pass his authority on to Timothy. And so it goes down
through history.</span> <br />
<br />
4. You don't get your authority "from God" but rather, "from God via
some particular Protestant denominational tradition." You then say that
is "from God" -- but it assumes a fallacious premise.<br />
<br />
<span class="text_exposed_show"><span style="color: blue;">Nice try, incorrect, but nice since it
is what you have to work with. Let's go for 120,000 denominations, shall
we? It's not correct, either, but using hyperbole gives you certain
flexibility.</span><br /> <br /> You have not offered any reply to what I wrote. I
didn't say "120,000 denominations." I said "hundreds." [in my #2 above] For over ten years now, I have argued against using the large numbers, because they are based on
wrong categories. <b><i>Any number of "churches" or "denominations" beyond ONE is unbiblical. </i></b>There is but <i>one </i>Church.</span><br />
<br />
5. Ah yes: the
obligatory laundry list of despised Catholic doctrines. I defend all at
great length, offering many biblical arguments.<br />
<br />
<span class="text_exposed_show"><span style="color: blue;">I'll check out your blog, thanks. Should be interesting, if my back can hold up to the gyrations needed to justify these."</span><br /> <br /> I'll pray that God will give you patience to be able to "withstand" so much truth. :-)</span><br />
<br />
6. If you are willing to believe <b>ALL</b> the Bible: not just those portions
that are predigested and regurgitated back to you via Protestant
preaching and man-made denominational tradition, come talk to us in the
Catholic Church.<br />
<br />
<span class="text_exposed_show"> <span style="color: blue;">I pray that you do the same, and read the Bible. </span><br /> <br /> I've been reading the Bible and defending it intensely for over 37 years. I even produced my own NT "version".<br /> <br /> <span style="color: blue;">I've been a Catholic, for many years, and absorbed all the teaching. </span><br /> <br />
You have shown me scarcely any indication that you <i>understand</i> Catholic
teaching, or its <i>rationale</i>. Did you ever read Catholic apologetics while
you were a Catholic, so you could grasp <b><i>why</i></b> you believed <i>what</i> you did
as a Catholic?<br /> <br /><span style="color: blue;">And believed it, at least until I started reading the Bible and learning a lot more, and in depth. </span><br /> <br />
. . . and took in Protestant interpretations of it, that stem from
man-made traditions, insofar as they contradict Catholic teaching.<br /> <br /> <span style="color: blue;">Then I realized what the true Word of God is, and what salvation is. </span><br /> <br />
What you realized was a <i>particular Protestant version </i>of all that:
elements of which are novel and unbiblical and can't be found in the
early Church.<br /> <br /><span style="color: blue;">These are not incompatible with Catholicism, </span><br /> <br /> Glad to hear you say that. It shows that you are not [theologically] anti-Catholic and totally immune to reason.<br /> <br />
<span style="color: blue;">but the Catholics put so many things on it, so many rules,
regulations, traditions, and yes even made up stuff, that it seems
they've gotten away from the message of Jesus Christ's death and
resurrection, for our salvation.</span><br /> <br /> So you say. I've defended all
these things you deny. It's what I do for a living, and my specialty is
"biblical evidence for Catholicism." Catholicism is a deeply biblical
religion. It delves into Scripture in far more depth than any form of
Protestantism ever has, because we believe <b>ALL</b> of Scripture and don't
arbitrarily ignore large portions. Protestants must do that because many things in the Bible don't fit
into their belief-system, such as, e.g., denominations, Scripture Alone,
imputed justification, denial of the Real Presence in the Eucharist,
and denial of baptismal regeneration.<br /> <br /> We can freely accept and rejoice in <i>all </i>of Scripture, because nowhere does it contradict Catholic teaching.<br /> <br /> Thanks for the exchange</span>.<br />
<br />
* * * <br />
<br />
Someone else commented:<br />
<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
Amen... but is there any other way for us to reach these Protestants rather than telling them how wrong they are?? </blockquote>
<br />
Jesus told the Pharisees how wrong they were, in no uncertain terms;
substituting their own traditions of men for God's true tradition.<br />
<br />
John came in with "guns blazing," and sure enough, is a former
Catholic; therefore, he needs to be shown that the false traditions and
premises are not in Catholicism, but in the Protestantism that he has
adopted. That may come off sounding "negative" but it is exactly what he
needs to hear, and so it <b><i>is</i></b> loving. It's tough love.<br />
<br />
He likely
won't accept it now, or even soon, but it never hurts to plant seeds.
God can work on Him through His grace, in due course.<br />
<br />
In the meantime, many others can read how I respond to him. So it's good all-around.<br />
<br />
* * * * *<br />
<br />
<br />Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-41152324752936586642015-04-09T19:16:00.000-04:002015-08-10T00:43:06.311-04:00Can We Honor Jesus Christ Through His Mother Mary? (vs. John Cranman)<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
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<div style="text-align: center;">
</div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
By Dave Armstrong (4-9-15)</div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<br /></div>
<br />
<br />
<div style="text-align: center;">
The following dialogue took place on my Facebook author page. <a href="https://www.facebook.com/DaveArmstrong1958/photos/a.151724138351771.1073741830.151620765028775/352467658277417/?type=1">I posted a meme </a>which read: "We never give more honour to Jesus than when
we honour his Mother, and we honour her simply and solely to honour him
all the more perfectly. We go to her only as a way leading to the goal
we seek -- Jesus, her Son." [St. Louis Marie de Montfort]</div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
This led to the exchange below with one John Cranman (apparently Protestant Reformed). His words will be in <span style="color: blue;">blue</span>.</div>
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<div style="text-align: center;">
* * * * *</div>
<br />
<span style="color: blue;">This is literally vacuous.</span><br />
<br />
Catholics think in terms of "both/and" rather than making false and
unnecessary dichotomies ("either/or"). This is also the Hebrew and
biblical outlook.<br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;">The best way to honor Jesus is to simply do
what He says. If we are talking about a hierarchy of ways to honor
Christ, I can imagine that living out the Great Commission is way
further up there than honoring Mary. So obviously, honoring Mary isn't
the "best" way to honor Christ.</span><br />
<br />
You're still thinking in
either/or terms. There is no necessity to do that. Doing Jesus' will
honors Jesus; so does honoring His mother, which (as it says above) is
always intended as primarily honor and glory to the Son, Who <i>made</i> His
very mother, as He willed. <br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;">Okay; is honoring Mary <i>the</i> primary way to honor Christ, or is it not? Because, the former is what this meme is claiming.</span><br />
<br />
No it's not. It's saying it is up at the top of honoring Jesus,
without ruling out other ways of doing that. Both/and. Honoring His
mother <i><b>is</b></i> honoring Him, in Catholic / biblical both/and thinking. The
problem in Protestant thinking (esp. Reformed) is persistent false
dichotomies. It can't comprehend honor of anyone besides God, as if such
honor detracts from His honor and is necessarily idolatry. Catholics
recognize distinctions between adoration and veneration, and also follow
the notion of worshiping God <i>through</i> His creation. Thus, Paul writes:<br />
<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<b>Romans 1:20</b> (RSV) Ever since the creation of the world his invisible
nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived
in the things that have been made. . . .</blockquote>
<br />
Analogously, we can say,
"Jesus' eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the
things [in this instance, Mary] that have been made." That's both/and
thinking.<br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;">Dave, this is just sophistry then. Why not just
speak plainly here? It doesn't say that it's "up at the top". It says
that "we never give more honor" than when we honor Mary. I would even
argue that it's nowhere near required, nor at the top.</span><br />
<br />
You <i>have</i> to see it as "sophistry" because you are restricted by your own
false premises (either/or thinking). I <i>am</i> speaking plainly (and
biblically and logically and apostolically). But to you it is sophistry
because you don't yet comprehend the biblical both/and outlook. You are
too beholden to the traditions of men (either/or dichotomies).<br />
<br />
Stating "we never give more honor" is not saying that it is the highest
or <i>only</i> form of honoring Christ; only that no other form could give <i>more</i> honor. Technically, then, one could <i>also</i> say, in line with the
meme, that "we never give more honor to Christ than simply do what He
says." They could both be on the highest level. And indeed they are!<br />
<br />
Moreover, the saint makes the following equation: "we honour her simply
and solely to honour him." But there's your "both/and" outlook again,
which Protestants rarely can conceptualize, because they've relentlessly
been taught either/or thinking in their own circles. Thus, they see it
as "sophistry" or (also commonly) "idolatry".<br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;">These aren't
false premises. It has to do with clear communication. The meme
communicates an idea. Now if the meme doesn't actually mean what it
says, then it's communicating in a very unclear way. That's sort of what
sophistry means. Clear communication has nothing to do with the
"traditions of men". It has to do with language and passing along ideas.</span><br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;">
And what do you mean here?: </span>"Stating "we never give more honor" is not
saying that it is the highest or <i>only</i> form of honoring Christ; only
that no other form could give <i>more</i> honor." <span style="color: blue;">If honoring Mary is the <i>maximal</i> way to honor God, then it logically follows that honoring Mary
is the highest way to honor God. But I can't tell whether you are
admitting that, or denying it. What you're saying isn't clear. </span><br />
<br />
I'm saying that it is the highest, and so are many other things we
can do, as you note. It's the "highest" without excluding other
"highests." Both / and . . . And it<i> is</i><b><i> </i></b>the same as honoring Jesus Christ
our Lord, as the meme says: "we honour her simply and solely to honour
him."<br />
<br />
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<a href="http://biblicalcatholicism.com/"><img alt="http://biblicalcatholicism.com/" border="0" src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-D8SOhMkO_Wc/VcffWZ-3egI/AAAAAAAAJIM/ypyCkR_JBh0/s1600/Square%2BAd%2B%255B250%2Bx%2B250%255D.jpg" title="" /></a></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<br /></div>
<br />
That's what you can't grasp, because you don't see that we
can adore God through creatures (and even things) that he has made.
Protestantism, for the most part. has no category for that. It's worship
God, and no honor or veneration for anyone else, or secondarily
venerating them, through which we are primarily adoring God.<br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;">Also it's not. Honoring Mary is not the maximal, or highest way we can
honor God. That's such nonsense. It's not even anywhere near the top.
Dying for Christ, for example, is a much higher way to honor God. Maybe
even the ultimate way, as there is nothing greater one can give than to
lay down his/her life.</span><br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;"> And Jesus nowhere tells us we are
obligated to show this ongoing devotion and honor towards Mary. He
always points our spiritual devotion towards God, not multiplied
entities.</span><br />
<br />
Jesus may not have, but there are a lot of
Christian elements He didn't talk about at all, or not explicitly: that
come primarily from the epistles. The biblical motif of imitating holy
people is similar to veneration (see: Rom 11:14; 1 Cor 4:15-16; 11:1-2;
Phil 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess 1:6-7; 2:9-14; 3:7-9; 1 Tim 4:12; 2 Tim 3:10-14;
Heb 6:12; 13:7; Jas 5:10-11; 1 Pet 3:1-2; 5:2-3).<br />
<br />
Paul makes it
clear more than once that imitating him is in complete harmony with the
notion of imitating Christ, whom Paul is imitating (see, e.g., Ephesians
5:1: "Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children:): "Be
imitators of me, as I am of Christ" (1 Cor 11:1); "And you became
imitators of us and of the Lord . . ." (1 Thess 1:6). It's not
either/or.<br />
<br />
By analogy, it is altogether proper to venerate and
honor saints, who have more perfectly attained God’s likeness (Matt
22:30; 1 Cor 13:9-12; 2 Cor 3:18; Phil 3:21; Heb 11:40; 1 Jn 3:2; Rev
21:27; 22:14), in light of the example of how “heroes of the faith” are
regarded (Hebrews 11) and also the biblical injunctions to honor all
sorts of people:<br />
<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<b>Romans 12:10</b> love one another with brotherly affection; outdo one another in showing honor. (cf. 1 Cor 12:23-26)<br />
<br />
<b>Romans 13:6-7</b> For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the
authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay all
of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue
is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.<br />
<br />
<b>Ephesians 6:2</b> “Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), (cf. Ex 20:12; Deut 5:16)<br />
<br />
<b>1 Timothy 5:3</b> Honor widows who are real widows.<br />
<br />
<b>1 Timothy 5:17</b> Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of
double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;<br />
<br />
<b>1 Peter 2:17 </b>Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.<br />
<br />
<b>1 Peter 3:7</b> Likewise you husbands, live considerately with your wives, bestowing honor on the woman . . . (cf. Gen 30:20)</blockquote>
<br />
King Asa was honored after his death:<br />
<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<b>2 Chronicles 16:14 </b>They buried him in the tomb which he had hewn out
for himself in the city of David. They laid him on a bier which had been
filled with various kinds of spices prepared by the perfumer's art; and
they made a very great fire in his honor. (cf. 21:19, showing that this
was a general practice)</blockquote>
<br />
King Hezekiah was also so honored:<br />
<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<b>2 Chronicles 32:33</b> And Hezeki'ah slept with his fathers, and they
buried him in the ascent of the tombs of the sons of David; and all
Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem did him honor at his death.</blockquote>
<br />
<span style="color: blue;">Only Catholicism tells us otherwise, through its own interpretive
liberties. And not everyone agrees with those liberties. So if I'm
seeing things through "Protestant" lenses, then likewise you, through
Catholic ones.</span><br />
<br />
There are many more examples in the Bible of veneration of both men and angels (often as direct representatives of God):<br />
<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<b>Genesis 18:1-4, 22</b> And the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre,
as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. [2] He lifted
up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men stood in front of him.
When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed
himself [<i>shachah</i>] to the earth, [3] and said, "My lord, if I have found
favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant. [4] Let a little water
be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree, . .
. [22] So the men turned from there, and went toward Sodom; but Abraham
still stood before the LORD.</blockquote>
<br />
The text in-between goes back and
forth, referring to "men" or "they" or "them" (18:9, 16) and "The LORD"
or first-person address from God (18:10, 13-14, 17-21) interchangeably,
for the same phenomenon and personal / physical / verbal encounter.<br />
<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<b>Joshua 5:13-15 </b>When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and
looked, and behold, a man stood before him with his drawn sword in his
hand; and Joshua went to him and said to him, "Are you for us, or for
our adversaries?" [14] And he said, "No; but as commander of the army of
the LORD I have now come." And Joshua fell on his face to the earth,
and worshiped [<i>shachah</i>], and said to him, "What does my lord bid his
servant?" [15] And the commander of the LORD's army said to Joshua, "Put
off your shoes from your feet; for the place where you stand is holy."
And Joshua did so.</blockquote>
<br />
A "man" is equated with God also in Genesis 32:24, 30. The Angel of the Lord is sometimes referred to as God Himself, but not always; and is venerated. So. for example:<br />
<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<b>Judges 13:15-22</b> Mano'ah said to the angel of the LORD, "Pray, let us
detain you, and prepare a kid for you." [16] And the angel of the LORD
said to Mano'ah, "If you detain me, I will not eat of your food; but if
you make ready a burnt offering, then offer it to the LORD." (For
Mano'ah did not know that he was the angel of the LORD.) [17] And
Mano'ah said to the angel of the LORD, "What is your name, so that, when
your words come true, we may honor you?" [18] And the angel of the LORD
said to him, "Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?" [19] So
Mano'ah took the kid with the cereal offering, and offered it upon the
rock to the LORD, to him who works wonders. [20] And when the flame went
up toward heaven from the altar, the angel of the LORD ascended in the
flame of the altar while Mano'ah and his wife looked on; and they fell
on their faces to the ground. [21] The angel of the LORD appeared no
more to Mano'ah and to his wife. Then Mano'ah knew that he was the angel
of the LORD. [22] And Mano'ah said to his wife, "We shall surely die,
for we have seen God." (cf. 6:12-16, 20-23)</blockquote>
<br />
This passage is
remarkable in that it goes back and forth between God (13:16, 19, 22)
and the angel of the Lord (or of God) as His direct representative
(13:15-18, 20-21 and in the larger passage, 13:3, 6, 9, 13). The angel
is honored (v. 17), they fall on their faces to worship (v. 20) and at
length the angel is equated with God as His visible manifestation (v.
22). But the difference between the angel and God is highlighted by the
angel being described as a "man of God" (13:6, 8) and "the man"
(13:10-11).<br />
<br />
The angel of the Lord is also equated with God
(theophany) in Gen 31:11-13; Jud 2:1; but differentiated from God as
well, as a representative: (2 Sam 24:16; 1 Ki 19:6-7; 2 Ki 19:35; Dan
3:25, 28; 6:23; Zech 1:8-14).<br />
<br />
The Bible, in summary, is quite
clear: there is an occasional use of angels or men as direct
representatives of God, and they are "worshiped" [i.e., venerated] only
insofar as they represent God, as a visual image or object, through whom
God is working and communicating. But veneration is strictly separated
from the adoration due to God alone (see: Acts 10:25-26; Rom 1:25; Col
2:18; Rev 22:8-9). Everything has to be considered together, as a whole.<br />
<br />
All of this explicit biblical evidence is precisely in line with what
the Catholic Church teaches. It is the outright prohibition of all
veneration and honor of creatures whatever in most forms of
Protestantism that is a grossly unbiblical notion.<br />
<br />
Moreover,
"worship" is used in a wider (literary) sense of showing reverence or
obeisance to men of authority (in this instance, a king), in 1
Chronicles 29:20: "And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the
LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their
fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped [<i>shachah</i>] the LORD,
and the king" (KJV). RSV has: "worshiped the LORD, and did obeisance to
the king," but it is one Hebrew word applied to both.<br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Much
of what you point out here in scripture is not at all incompatible with
my position. Of course we honor people, and even imitate their example.
Of course I'd fearfully honor an angel if one were before me.</span><br data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">But
that's worlds apart from offering my ongoing spiritual devotion towards
any of the above, or singing psalms and praises to them in some ongoing
fashion.</span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352873761570140:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352873761570140:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352873761570140:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352873761570140:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Well,
John, we Catholics read the same Bible you read, that says "honor all
men" -- so we think that the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who was God,
is worthy of great honor: above all other <i>creatures</i>. Martin Luther
very much thought so, too. It's not just a Catholic thing. He wrote:</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352873761570140:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352873761570140:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352873761570140:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352873761570140:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">The
“great things” are nothing less than that she became the Mother of God,
in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as
pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all
blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which
she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven,
and such a Child. She herself is unable to find a name for this work, it
is too exceeding great; all she can do is break out in the fervent cry,
are great things, impossible to describe or define. Hence men have
crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God.
No one can say anything greater of her or to her, though he had as many
tongues as there are leaves on the trees, or grass in the fields, or
stars in the sky, or sand by the sea. (<i>The Magnificat</i>, June 1521; tr. A.
T. W. Steinhaeuser)</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352873761570140:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352873761570140:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352873761570140:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352873761570140:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$7:0" />
<span data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352873761570140:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352873761570140:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352873761570140:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352873761570140:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$8:0">[P]raise
and thank God through Mary and the grace given her. Laud and love her .
. . Similarly, our prayer should include the Mother of God as we say: O
God, what a noble person you have created in her! May she be blessed!
And so on. And you who honored her so highly, grant also to me . . .
(<i>Personal Prayer Book</i>, 1522, tr. Martin H. Bertram; in LW, v. 43)</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352873761570140:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352873761570140:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352873761570140:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352873761570140:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$11:0" />
<span data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352842661573250:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352873761570140:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352873761570140:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352873761570140:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".6.1:3:1:$replies352467658277417_352504278273755:0.1:2:$comment352467658277417_352873761570140:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$12:0">We
do not want to take away from Mary any honor which is her due. . . .
let the Blessed Virgin keep her place of honor. Among all the women of
the world she has this privilege from God, that as a virgin she gave
birth to the Son of God. (<i>Lectures on Genesis, Chapters 1-5</i>, Feb. 1536,
ed. Jaroslav Pelikan, tr. George V. Schick; in LW, v. 1)</span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span> </blockquote>
<br />
* * * * *<br />
<br />
<br />Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.com3tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-85553012068355728792015-04-08T14:58:00.000-04:002015-08-10T00:41:23.255-04:00How to Talk About the Papacy Without Offending Catholics<center>
<a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6422857" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; font-weight: bold; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"></a>By Dave Armstrong (6-3-09)<span style="font-family: inherit; font-weight: bold;"><br /><br /><span style="color: #009900; font-size: 20.7999992370605px;"> </span></span></center>
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<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: 16px;">Sometimes Protestant apologists argue to the effect that it is some inherently terrible and inconceivable thing for Catholics to believe as they do vis-a-vis ecclesiology and the papacy, so that ecumenism is scarcely even possible. When one side is forced from the outset to make one of its non-negotiable tenets negotiable, or else be accused of outrageous intolerance and arrogance and <i>hubris </i>(which also occurred in proposed talks in the 16th century), then it is unfair to that position from the get-go (and, I would argue, most uncharitable).</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: 16px;">We won't stop believing in the papacy, anymore than a Protestant will yield up <i>sola Scriptura</i>. These are bedrock principles, having to do with the Rule of faith on both sides. But I disagree that this is either "triumphalistic" or fatal to ecumenism.</span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: 16px;">Only someone who foolishly thinks that we will literally unite in some Hegelian synthesis-church would think that. Ecumenism is the effort to find common ground, rejoice in that, clear up misunderstandings and hostilities, and an effort to respect others who differ from us, and who will in all likelihood continue to do so. It is not some attempt to create hybrid-churches which will please no one.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: 16px;"><br /></span></div>
<div>
</div>
<div>
<a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6422857" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"></a><span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: 16px;">That's not fair, and -- in my mind - it is not ecumenism. It's holding a group hostage and assuming they are inferior and not even seriously dialoguing with them until they become like "us" -- because "our" position is so reasonable and moderate and nuanced and biblical, etc., etc.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: 16px;"><br /></span>
<br />
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<a href="http://biblicalcatholicism.com/"><img alt="http://biblicalcatholicism.com/" border="0" src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4AdVHvNyPDU/VcDQegSlArI/AAAAAAAAJGc/xFxb37i1Z4c/s1600/Square%2BAd%2B%255B250%2Bx%2B250%255D.jpg" title="" /></a></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: 16px;"><br /></span></div>
</div>
<div>
</div>
<div>
<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: 16px;">All Christians believe that their views are derived from, and/or harmonious with, the Bible. To make this sort of argument, I should think that at the very least, some familiarity with actual Catholic arguments ought to be exhibited, before launching off into the hyper-polemics. </span></div>
<div>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span></div>
<div>
<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: 16px;">How does a rational, honest, committed Catholic possibly respond to such a charge? "Yes! Wow! You know, my friend, you have a good point there! It is a profound realization. Now that I have finally faced the fact that I am inherently <i>dishonest</i>, and that this is a ubiquitous shortcoming of 'RC apologists,' we can get into a <i>good</i> discussion. <i>Now</i> we can get somewhere." This is the logical fallacy of poisoning the well. It begins with the false assumption that dishonesty is so widespread in Catholic ranks as to be epidemic and fatal to all ecumenical discourse and other joint endeavors.</span></div>
<div>
</div>
<div>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: 16px;"></span></span></div>
<div>
<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: 16px;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: 16px;">What offends Catholics is the insinuation that we are less-than-fair-minded or rational or charitable people by simple virtue of the fact that we are Catholics and believe in outrageous, outlandish, self-evidently false doctrines like the papacy or various Marian doctrines or what-have-you. It's the old "triumphalism" charge, writ large.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: 16px;"><br /></span></div>
<div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6422857" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"></a></div>
<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: 16px;">If those who criticize Catholicism argue from the Bible and history and avoid making the hostile meta-assertions about internal attitudes and supposed pagan background of Catholic tenets, or "ubiquitous dishonesty," we would have no objection. We have the Bible in common. That's the whole point of my emphasis on "biblical evidence for Catholicism" on my website and in my books and articles. We can all go to Holy Scripture and make our arguments.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: 16px;"><br /></span></div>
<div>
</div>
<div>
<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: 16px;">I would challenge Protestant apologists to overturn the biblical arguments we can produce and show us what the biblical ecclesiology is, if not papacy and episcopacy, a visible church which has councils and priests, etc. They need to deal with apostolic succession. Dialogical opponents need to <i>back up</i> their statements. They shouldn't have the luxury of simply making them and letting them hang there, unsupported and unproven and untested by scrutiny and close examination: biblical, historical, and logical.</span></div>
<div>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span></div>
<div>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span></div>
<br />
<div>
<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: 16px;">*** </span></div>
Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-65474587011291960102015-03-31T13:41:00.002-04:002015-08-10T00:40:55.642-04:00First Video Ever of Me Teaching Apologetics <div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
</div>
<br />
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<a href="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vFYYOcIKW9o/VRrcEm_Ad5I/AAAAAAAAIzM/2-o8X7hIa7o/s1600/Dave0113-4B.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="400" src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vFYYOcIKW9o/VRrcEm_Ad5I/AAAAAAAAIzM/2-o8X7hIa7o/s1600/Dave0113-4B.jpg" width="300" /></a></div>
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
</div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
[selfie from January 2013]</div>
<br />
<div style="text-align: center;">
By Dave Armstrong (3-31-15)<br />
<br /></div>
<br />
I did an informal Q & A teaching session (1 hr, 17 min. total,
in two parts) with a Catholic high school youth group, called ROCK
(Relying On Christ our King), in Southgate, Michigan (3-22-15),
answering 30 or so questions, completely unprepared and "off the cuff." We managed to upload the footage to You Tube.<br />
<br />
Links: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCBa1T-Ad-4&feature=youtu.be">Part One</a> / <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RRuZLEigAE&feature=youtu.be">Part Two </a><br />
<br />
I hardly ever do this, whether filmed or not. I did an actual talk /
lecture a year or two ago to another high school group. That's even more
rare than what I did her<span class="text_exposed_show">e, which was
almost totally a Q & A session. Blessedly, I wasn't really aware
that I was being filmed the whole time. That would have made my
perfectionism hit the roof and make me worry too much about what I was
saying.</span><br />
<br />
This is <b><i>me</i></b>! People
are always talking about how the Internet doesn't convey body language,
tone, and all the rest that we see visually, or what we hear (inflection
and so forth). So now you can see what I'm really like (rather than
what the myths of my detractors claim): laid-back, informal, given often
to witty remarks and one-liners (sometimes dry humor), unassuming,
easy-going. <br />
<br />
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<a href="http://biblicalcatholicism.com/"><img alt="http://biblicalcatholicism.com/" border="0" src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-D8SOhMkO_Wc/VcffWZ-3egI/AAAAAAAAJIM/ypyCkR_JBh0/s1600/Square%2BAd%2B%255B250%2Bx%2B250%255D.jpg" title="" /></a></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<br /></div>
<br />
This is <i>exactly</i> what I would be like (so my family and some friends who have met me say), if you were
in my living room talking to me about apologetics. Hopefully, this can
overcome the curious stereotype that makes out that apologists are these
mean, overbearing, arrogant types who love to tell everyone they are
wrong and how stupid they are. I have my faults like anyone else, but
those things are <b><i>not</i></b> among my besetting sins or shortcomings.<br />
<br />
No!
I'm here to share with joy, the Good News and the fullness of spiritual
and theological truth that is found in the Catholic Church.<br />
<br />
What's cool is that in the second part you see a lot of my second-oldest
son Michael (almost 22) who was reading the questions and making some
comments. You <i>hear</i> my youngest son Matthew (baritone voice just like
myself and Michael) with a few questions, but don't see him, because he
was filming it. You also see the back of my wife Judy's head in Part 2
(dark, curly hair). I wish she had turned around!<br />
<br />
I think it's fun because it is so informal and a sort of group
discussion. Part 2 is as informal as can be <i>imagined</i>, in a separate room
with everyone feeding their face and walking around, while I answered
the questions from index cards. Though I don't do stuff like this much, I
immensely enjoyed it. The most fun in apologetics that I ever had in my
life was when it was just me and 16 atheists in a room, 3 or 4 years
ago. That was a Q & A session, too. I wrote <i>about</i> that but I don't
have a transcript of it.<br />
<br />
So, enjoy and please let me hear your feedback and what you think. Did <i>your</i> impression of me change too?<br />
<br />
* * * * *<br />
<br />
<br />Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.com5tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-74366974345488785412015-03-20T11:54:00.001-04:002015-08-10T00:37:43.826-04:00The Raising of Tabitha as a Compelling Indicator of Purgatory (Guest Post by Tony Gerring)<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
</div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
By Tony Gerring [see <a href="https://www.facebook.com/tony.gerring">Facebook page</a>]</div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<br /></div>
<br />
If you are a non-Catholic Christian, can you provide some insight on how
you understand this story in Scripture? In Acts 9:36-42, Peter raises
the disciple Tabitha from the dead (Acts 9:36-42).<br />
<br />
Where did Tabitha's soul go after she died?<br />
<br />
Did Tabitha's soul leave heaven and return to earth?<br />
<br />
What about Hebrews 9:27?: “It is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment.”<br />
<br />
How do you understand this story?<br />
<br />
In the New Testament, there are several occurrences of the dead being
raised to life after Jesus’ resurrection. In Acts 9:36-42, we read
about how Peter raised Tabitha from the dead. Note that Tabitha is
specifically called a disciple of Jesus who did good works and gave
alms. In verse 37, the Bible tells us she died. According to Protestant
understanding, after her death, Tabitha's soul must have gone directly
to heaven.<br />
<br />
Now if Tabitha had received her heavenly reward and he<span class="text_exposed_show">r
soul was in heaven with God, then God must have stripped Tabitha of her
heavenly reward in order to send her soul back to a sinful, bodily
existence on earth. But how could this be? This would violate God's own
love and justice: “It is appointed for men to die once and after this
comes judgment.” Hebrews 9:27.</span><br />
<span class="text_exposed_show"><br /></span>
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<a href="http://biblicalcatholicism.com/"><img alt="http://biblicalcatholicism.com/" border="0" src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-D8SOhMkO_Wc/VcffWZ-3egI/AAAAAAAAJIM/ypyCkR_JBh0/s1600/Square%2BAd%2B%255B250%2Bx%2B250%255D.jpg" title="" /></a></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<span class="text_exposed_show"><br /></span></div>
<br />
In Catholic eschatology, there exists another option – that which is
called purgatory. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
“All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly
purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death
they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to
enter the joy of heaven. (CCC 1030). Furthermore, the “Church gives the
name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is
entirely different from the punishment of the damned.” (CCC 1031)<br />
<br />
If Tabitha was among the elect and her soul was undergoing this final
purification in order “to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the
joy of heaven,” her earthly resurrection would not violate God’s eternal
justice, for her soul would not yet have entered into the heavenly
reward promised by God.<br />
<br />
However, if, as non-Catholic Christians
assert, there is no purgatory, then immediately after her death her soul
would have entered its heavenly reward. And, in order for Tabitha to be
raised from the dead, God must have cast her soul out of heaven in
order to return to a sinful, bodily existence on earth. The problem with
this explanation is that it defies everything that Christians
understand about God and his love and justice.<br />
<br />
It is simply not possible
for a soul once received into heaven to leave heaven and return to a
sinful, earthly existence. This is an impossible theological difficulty
for non-Catholic Christians.<br />
<div class="text_exposed_show">
However, the raising of Tabitha by
Peter as recounted in the book of Acts fits perfectly within Catholic
theology, maintains God's love and justice, and still manifest's God
power over death on earth as a witness to eternal life in heaven. This
story is also one of the strongest and clearest Biblical evidences for
the reality of the final purification of the elect after death and
before entering heaven.</div>
<br />
* * * * *Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.com30tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-72592367582284249252015-03-19T20:30:00.000-04:002015-08-10T00:35:13.426-04:00Cardinal Newman's Conversion Odyssey, in His Own Words (September 1839 to December 1845)<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
</div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
By Dave Armstrong (3-19-15)</div>
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<span style="color: magenta;"><span style="font-family: "Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;"><b><br /></b></span></span></div>
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<span style="color: magenta;"><span style="font-family: "Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;"><b><br /></b></span></span></div>
<br />
<div style="text-align: center;">
The following chronological documentation is drawn from entries in my two books: <i> </i></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<i>The Quotable Newman</i> (Manchester, New Hampshire: Sophia Institute Press, 2012) <br />
<i>Section</i>: "Conversion (His Own)" </div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<i>Cardinal Newman: Q & A on Theology, Church History, and Conversion</i> (Lulu, 2015; currently in progress, with the sections relevant <i>here</i>, completed) </div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<i>Section</i>: Ch. 6: "Conversion (to Catholicism)" </div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
Sometimes different portions of the same letter are in the two different books, which will be noted. I note to whom letters were written, and also indicate primary sources or secondary sources where I obtained the letters.</div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
My two books also contain Newman's thoughts on Catholic conversion <i>in general</i>, his hindsight reflections on his own conversion from <i>after</i> 1845, and his criticisms of Anglicanism; as well as related remarks on development and other aspects of Church history. But those citations will <i>not</i> be included in this list (minus ten noted exceptions).</div>
<br />
<div style="text-align: center;">
<span style="color: blue;"><span style="font-size: large;"><b>Bibliography and Abbreviations </b></span></span></div>
<br />
<div style="text-align: center;">
<i><b>QN</b> The Quotable Newman</i> (Manchester, New Hampshire: Sophia Institute Press, 2012)</div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<i><b>Q&A</b> Cardinal Newman: Q & A on Theology, Church History, and Conversion</i> (Lulu, 2015)</div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
* * * * * </div>
<br />
<br />
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
<span style="color: black;"><i><b>Apo.
</b></i></span><span style="color: black;"><i>Apologia pro Vita Sua</i></span><span style="color: black;">
(1865; London: Longmans, Green, and Co., 1908)</span></div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
<br /></div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
</div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
<span style="color: black;"><i><b>Ble.</b></i></span><span style="color: black;">
[Vincent Ferrer Blehl] </span><span style="color: black;"><i>Pilgrim
Journey: John Henry Newman: 1801-1845</i></span><span style="color: black;">
(New York: Paulist Press, 2001)<i><b> </b></i></span><br />
<br />
<span style="color: black;"><i><b>Keb.,
</b></i></span><span style="color: black;"><i>Correspondence of John Henry
Newman with John Keble and Others, 1839-45</i></span><span style="color: black;">
(edited at the Birmingham Oratory, London: Longmans, Green, and Co.,
1917)</span></div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
<br /></div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
<span style="color: black;">
</span></div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
<span style="color: black;">
</span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;"><i><b>LD</b></i></span><span style="color: black;"><b>
vii</b></span><span style="color: black;"> </span><span style="color: black;"><i>The
Letters and Diaries of John Henry Newman</i></span><span style="color: black;">,
Vol. VII: </span> </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i><span style="font-weight: normal;">Editing
the</span></i><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
British Critic: </span></span><i><span style="font-weight: normal;">January
1839 – December 1840</span></i><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (e</span></span>dited by Gerard Tracey; </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1995)</span></span></div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
</div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
<br /></div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
</div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
<span style="color: black;">
</span></div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
<span style="color: black;"><i><b>LD</b></i></span><span style="color: black;"><b>
viii</b></span><span style="color: black;"> </span><span style="color: black;"><i>The
Letters and Diaries of John Henry Newman</i></span><span style="color: black;">,
Vol. VIII: </span><span style="color: black;"><i>Tract 90 and the Jerusalem
Bishopric: January 1841 – April 1842</i></span><span style="color: black;">
(edited by Gerard Tracey, Oxford University Press, USA, 2000)</span></div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
<br /></div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
<span style="color: black;">
</span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;"><i><b>LD</b></i></span><span style="color: black;"><b> ix</b></span><span style="color: black;"> </span><span style="color: black;"><i>The
Letters and Diaries of John Henry Newman</i></span><span style="color: black;">,
Vol. IX: </span></span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"></span></span><i><span style="font-weight: normal;">Littlemore
and the Parting of Friends: May 1842-October 1843</span></i> (edited by Francis J. McGrath, F.M.S. and Gerard Tracey; </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> Oxford University Press, 2006)</span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="font-weight: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black;"><i><b>LD</b></i></span><span style="color: black;"><b> x</b></span><span style="color: black;"> </span><span style="color: black;"><i>The
Letters and Diaries of John Henry Newman</i></span><span style="color: black;">,
Vol. </span>X: </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></span><i><span style="font-weight: normal;">The
Final Step: 1 November I843 – 6 October 1845</span></i> (edited by Francis J. McGrath, F.M.S.;</span></span><i><span style="font-weight: normal;"></span></i><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> Oxford University Press, 2006)</span></span></div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
<br /></div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
<span style="color: black;"><i><b>LD</b></i></span><span style="color: black;"><b>
xi</b></span><span style="color: black;"> </span><span style="color: black;"><i>The
Letters and Diaries of John Henry Newman</i></span><span style="color: black;">,
Vol. XI: </span><span style="color: black;"><i>Littlemore to Rome: October
1845 to December 1846</i></span><span style="color: black;"> (edited by
Charles Stephen Dessain, London: Thomas Nelson and Sons, 1961)</span></div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
<br /></div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
</div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
<span style="color: black;"><i><b>Moz.</b></i></span><span style="color: black;"><b>
ii</b></span><span style="color: black;"> </span><span style="color: black;"><i>Letters
and Correspondence of John Henry Newman During His Life in the
English Church</i></span><span style="color: black;">, vol. 2 [starting
from December 1833] (edited by Anne Mozley; 1891; London: Longmans,
Green, and Co., 1903)</span></div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
<br /></div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
<span style="color: black;">
</span></div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
<span style="color: black;"><i><b>POL </b></i></span><span style="color: black;"><i>A
Packet of Letters: A Selection from the Correspondence of John Henry
Newman</i></span><span style="color: black;">; edited by Joyce Sugg
(Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1983)</span></div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
<br /></div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
<span style="color: black;">
</span></div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
<span style="color: black;"><i><b>SD</b></i></span><span style="color: black;">
</span><span style="color: black;"><i>Sermons Bearing on Subjects of the
Day</i></span><span style="color: black;"> (1831-1843 / 1869; </span><span style="color: black;">London:
Longmans, Green, and Co., 1902)</span></div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
</div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
<br /></div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
<span style="color: black;">
</span></div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="text-align: center;">
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<a href="http://biblicalcatholicism.com/"><img alt="http://biblicalcatholicism.com/" border="0" src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-D8SOhMkO_Wc/VcffWZ-3egI/AAAAAAAAJIM/ypyCkR_JBh0/s1600/Square%2BAd%2B%255B250%2Bx%2B250%255D.jpg" title="" /></a></div>
<br />
<span style="color: blue;"><span style="font-size: large;"><b><br /></b></span></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span style="font-size: large;"><b>Chronological List of Letters and Other Sources</b></span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="text-align: center;">
<br /></div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
</div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
<br /></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To Frederic Rogers, 22 Sep. 1839 (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>vii + <i>QN</i> /</span></span> <i>Moz</i>. ii)</span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="LEFT" class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
S. F. Wood, 29 Sep. 1839 </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">(<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>vii)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
J. W. Bowden, 4 Nov. 1839 </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">(<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>vii)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Robert Williams, 10 Nov. 1839 </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">(<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>vii)</span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
[sister] Jemima Mozley, 29 Nov. 1839 </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">(<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>vii)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To J. W. Bowden, 5 Jan.
1840 (<i>QN</i> / <i>Keb</i>.)</span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Edward B. Pusey, 15 Jan. 1840 </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">(<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>vii)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To J. W. Bowden, 21
Feb. 1840 (<i>QN</i> / <i>Keb</i>.)</span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To [sister] Jemima Mozley,
25 Feb. 1840 (<i>QN</i> / <i>Moz</i>. ii)</span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
John Keble, 26 Oct. 1840 </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">(<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>vii) </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">[from ch. 5: "Anglicanism"]</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To Frederick Rogers, 25
Nov. 1840 (<i>QN</i> / <i>Moz</i>. ii)</span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Frederic Rogers, 26 Dec. 1840</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>vii) [from ch. 5: "Anglicanism"]</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Richard Westmacott, 8 April 1841 </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">(<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>viii)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To Charles W. Russell [name unlisted in my book], 26
April 1841 (<i>QN</i> / <i>Apo</i>., ch. 4)</span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To Charles W. Russell [name unlisted in <i>QN</i>], 5 May 1841 <span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">(<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>viii + </span></span><i>QN</i> / <i>Apo</i>., ch. 4) </span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Miss </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Mary</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
Holmes, 6 Sep. 1841 </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">(<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>viii) [from ch. 5: "Anglicanism"]</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
J. R. Hope, 17 Oct. 1841 </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">(<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>viii + </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / <i>Moz</i>. ii)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
John Keble, 24 Oct. 1841</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>viii </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">+ </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / <i>Moz</i>. ii</span></span>) [1st from ch. 5: "Anglicanism"]</span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Henry Wilberforce, 8 Nov. 1841</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>viii)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To J. R. Hope, 24
Nov. 1841 (<i>QN</i> / <i>Keb</i>.)</span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Samuel Rickards, 1 Dec. 1841</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>viii</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> + </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / <i>Moz</i>. ii</span></span></span></span>) [1st from ch. 5: "Anglicanism"]</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To J. R. Hope, 2 Dec.
1841 (<i>QN</i> / <i>Keb</i>.)</span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To S. F. Wood, 6
Dec. 1841 (<i>QN</i> / <i>Keb</i>.)</span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
J. R Hope, 8 Dec. 1841</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>viii)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
S. F. Wood, 13 Dec. 1841 </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">(<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>viii + </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / <i>Keb</i>.)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Thomas Mozley, 13 Dec. 1841</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>viii) [from ch. 5: "Anglicanism"]</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To R. W. Church, 24
Dec. 1841 (<i>QN</i> / <i>Apo</i>., ch. 4)</span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To Rev. W.
Dodsworth, 27 Dec. 1841 (<i>QN</i> / <i>Keb</i>.)<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Robert I. Wilberforce, 26 Jan. 1842</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>viii)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Robert I. Wilberforce, 1 Feb. 1842 </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">(<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>viii)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To Edward Bellasis, 16
Feb. 1842 (<i>QN</i> / <i>Keb</i>.)</span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To Thomas Kirkpatrick [name unlisted in my book], 6 March 1842 (<i>QN</i> / <i>Keb</i>.)</span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Edward B. Pusey, 24 Aug. 1842</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>ix) [from ch. 5: "Anglicanism"]</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To Edward B. Pusey, 16
Oct. 1842 (<i>QN</i> / <i>Apo</i>., ch. 4)</span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Miss </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Mary</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
Holmes, 8 Feb. 1843</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>ix + </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / <i>Ble</i>.)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To John Keble, 14
March 1843 (<i>QN</i> / <i>Keb</i>.)</span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><i>Diary</i>, 12 April 1843 (<i>Ble</i>.) </span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
John Keble, 4 May 1843 </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">(<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>ix + </span></span><i>QN</i> / <i>Apo</i>., ch. 4)</span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To John Keble, 18
May 1843 (<i>QN</i> / <i>Keb</i>.)</span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Henry Wilberforce, 9 June 1843</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD</i> ix)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Mrs. William [Catherine] Froude, 28 July 1843</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>ix)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To [sister] Jemima Mozley, 28
Aug. 1843 (<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / <i>Moz</i>. ii</span></span></span></span>)</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To J. B. Mozley, 1
Sep. 1843 (<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / <i>Moz</i>. ii</span></span></span></span>)</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To John Keble, 6
Sep. 1843 (<i>QN</i> / <i>Keb</i>.)</span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To Jemima Mozley, 22
Sep. 1843 (<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / <i>Moz</i>. ii</span></span></span></span>)</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">Sermon 26: “The Parting of Friends,” 25
Sep. 1843 (<i>SD</i>)</span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To [sister] Harriett Mozley, 29
Sep. 1843 (<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / <i>Moz</i>. ii</span></span></span></span>)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
[sister] Harriet Mozley, 2 Oct.? 1843 </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">(<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>ix)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To Henry Edward
Manning, 14 Oct. 1843 (<i>QN</i> / <i>Apo</i>., ch. 4)</span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Henry Edward Manning, 25 Oct. 1843</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>ix + </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / <i>Apo</i>., ch. 4)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To J. B. Mozley, 24
Nov. 1843 (<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / <i>Moz</i>. ii</span></span></span></span>)</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To Henry Edward
Manning, 24 Dec. 1843 (<i>QN</i> / <i>Keb</i>.)</span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To John Keble, 23
Jan. 1844 (<i>QN</i> / <i>Keb</i>.)</span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Edward B. Pusey, 19 Feb. 1844</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x + </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / <i>Ble</i>.)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To J. W. Bowden, 21
Feb. 1844 (<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / <i>Moz</i>. ii</span></span></span></span>)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Charles John Myers, 25 Feb. 1844</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x + </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / <i>Ble</i>.</span></span>)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Mrs. William [Catherine] Froude, 3 April 1844</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Mrs. William [Catherine] Froude, 5 April 1844 </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">(<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x) [from ch. 5: "Anglicanism"]</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Mrs. William [Catherine] Froude, 9 April 1844 </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">(<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x) [from ch. 5: "Anglicanism"]</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
[sister] Jemima Mozley, 21 May 1844</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x + </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / <i>Ble</i>. & </span></span></span></span></span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>Moz</i>. ii</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span>)</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
John Keble, 8 June 1844</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x + </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / <i>Ble</i>. &<i> POL</i></span></span></span></span></span></span>)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To Mrs. William [Catherine] Froude,
9 June 1844 (<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / <i>Ble</i>.</span></span>)</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To John Keble, 13 June
1844 (<i>QN</i> / <i>Keb</i>.)</span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">“<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Memorandum
in case of need,” 28 July 1844</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To E. L. Badely, 23
Aug. 1844 (<i>QN</i> / <i>Keb</i>.)</span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Edward B. Pusey, 28 Aug. 1844 </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">(<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Edward Badeley, 9 Sep. 1844</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">“<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Draft,”
30 Oct. 1844</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x) [from ch. 5: "Anglicanism"]</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Miss Maria Rosina Giberne, 7 Nov. 1844 </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">(<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x + </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / <i>Ble</i>.</span></span></span></span>)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Mrs. William [Catherine] Froude, 12 Nov. 1844</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To Rev. Edward
Coleridge, 12 Nov. 1844 (<i>QN</i> / <i>Keb</i>.)</span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Mrs. Elizabeth Bowden, 16 Nov. 1844</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Henry Edward Manning [name unlisted in <i>QN</i>], 16 Nov. 1844</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x + </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / <i>Apo</i>., ch. 4</span></span>)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Edward Coleridge, 16 Nov. 1844 </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">(<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x + </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / <i>Keb</i>.)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To Robert Wilberforce,
16 Nov. 1844 (<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / <i>Ble</i>.</span></span>)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
John Keble, 21 Nov. 1844)</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x + </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / <i>Keb</i>.</span></span>)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
[sister] Jemima Mozley, 24 Nov. 1844 </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">(<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x + </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / <i>Moz</i>. ii</span></span></span></span></span></span>)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To [sister] Jemima Mozley,
Dec. 1844 (<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / <i>Moz</i>. ii</span></span></span></span></span></span>)</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To
[sister] Jemima Mozley, 22 Dec. 1844 (<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / <i>Ble</i>.</span></span></span></span> & </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>Moz</i>. ii</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span>)</div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To Miss <span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Maria Rosina </span></span>Giberne, 8 Jan. 1845 (<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / </span></span></span></span></span></span><i>Ble</i>. & <i>Apo</i>., ch. 4)</span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Edward B. Pusey, 25 Feb. 1845 </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">(<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x + </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / </span></span></span></span></span></span><i>Ble</i>.)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Edward B. Pusey, 12 March 1845 </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">(<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Edward B. Pusey, 14 March 1845 </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">(<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
[sister] Jemima Mozley, 15 March 1845</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x + </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / <i>Moz</i>. ii</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span>)</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Henry Wilberforce, 20 March 1845</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
[sister] Jemima Mozley, 22 March 1845</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Miss Maria Rosina Giberne, 30 March 1845</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x + </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / </span></span></span></span></span></span><i>Ble</i>.</span></span></span></span></span>)</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
James Bowling Mozley, 2 April 1845</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x + </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / <i>Moz</i>. ii</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span>)</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To Robert Francis Wilson, 11 April 1845</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To Henry Wilberforce,
27 April 1845 (<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / </span></span></span></span></span></span><i>Ble</i>.</span></span></span></span></span>)</div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To J. R. Hope, 14 May
1845 (<i>QN</i> / <i>Keb</i>.)</span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Mrs. William [Catherine] Froude, 10 June 1845</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To J. R. Hope, 10 June
1845 (<i>QN</i> / <i>Keb</i>.)</span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To Rev. Edward
Coleridge, 3 July 1845 (<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / </span></span></span></span></span></span><i>Ble</i>.</span></span></span></span></span>)</div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To Richard Westmacott, 11 July
1845 (<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><i>QN</i> / </span></span></span></span></span></span><i>POL</i></span></span></span></span></span>)</div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Charles Crawley, 14 July 1845 </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">(<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
[brother] Francis William Newman, 7 Aug. 1845 </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">(<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Miss Maria Rosina Giberne, 24 Aug. 1845</span></span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Mrs.
Elizabeth Bowden, 31 Aug. 1845</span></span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Simeon Lloyd Pope, 18 Sep. 1845</span></span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Edward Walford, 21 Sep. 1845 </span></span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">(<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">To
Robert Francis Wilson, 25 Sep. 1845 </span></span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">(<i>Q&A</i> / <i>LD </i>x)</span></span></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To [sister] Jemima Mozley, 9
Oct. 1845 (<i>QN</i> / <i>LD</i> xi)</span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To [sister] Jemima Mozley, 14 Oct. 1845 (<i>QN</i> / <i>LD</i> xi)</span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">To Edward Badeley, 19
Oct. 1845 (<i>QN</i> / <i>LD</i> xi)</span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">Letter To Harmood W. Banner,
8 Nov. 1845 (<i>QN</i> / <i>LD</i> xi)</span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">Letter to the Marquise de
Salvo, 14 Dec. 1845 (<i>QN</i> / <i>LD</i> xi)</span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">* * * * * </span></div>
<div class="western">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="western">
<br /></div>
Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-43302347340501123222015-03-07T16:39:00.000-05:002015-08-10T00:33:20.318-04:00Books by Dave Armstrong: "The 'Catholic' Luther: An Ecumenical Collection of His 'Traditional' Utterances" <div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<a href="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-fBgO4DCWyUU/VKBNQ32y7HI/AAAAAAAAIng/kNYeXaABy7k/s1600/JPG%2BCover%2B(555%2Bx%2B832%2C%2B266K).jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="640" src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-fBgO4DCWyUU/VKBNQ32y7HI/AAAAAAAAIng/kNYeXaABy7k/s1600/JPG%2BCover%2B(555%2Bx%2B832%2C%2B266K).jpg" width="426" /></a></div>
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<span style="color: red;"><b>[completed on 28 December 2014 and published at Lulu (PDF) on the same day. 166 pages]</b></span><br />
<span style="color: red;"><b><br /></b></span>
[cover design by Dave Armstrong]</div>
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<span style="font-size: large;"><span style="color: blue;"><span style="color: black;"><b><span style="font-size: small;">--- For purchase information, scroll to the bottom ---</span></b></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-size: large;"><span style="color: blue;"><span style="color: black;"><b><span style="font-size: small;"> </span></b></span> </span></span><br />
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<span style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: large;"> LULU / E-BOOKSITE BLURB</span></span><br />
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<span style="font-size: large;"><span style="color: blue;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">My goal in the present volume is to give “balance” and greater overall accuracy to the Catholic treatment of Luther. He obviously wrote a lot of things that Catholics vigorously disagree with. I have dealt at length with those, elsewhere. But if we are to fully understand him, we also need to discover the orthodox and traditional aspects of his teaching (from the Catholic point of view). We owe it to Luther, to present his views in their fullness and broadness; in their totality. I shall be citing the portions of Luther's writings that Catholics would agree with. The ecumenical endeavor is devoted to finding things that Christians have in common. This book will do exactly that. If I can persuade a few people that Catholics and Lutherans have more in common than either side (for the most part) imagined, I'll be more than happy and fulfilled, having accomplished my goal. The topics are divided into nine broad sections and 113 individual categories, and arranged chronologically within each category.</span></span></span></span></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: large;"><span style="color: blue;"> </span><span style="color: #38761d;">MISC.</span></span></div>
<br />
<div style="text-align: left;">
<span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="color: #38761d;"><span style="color: black;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/873101366058183">Introductory Facebook post</a> [10-10-14 ] </span></span></span></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/876710535697266">"Why Bring Up the Marian Views of the Early Protestant Leaders At All? Of What Relevance is It?" </a>[Facebook, 10-16-14] <br /><br /><a href="http://liturgicalmonarchist.blogspot.com/2015/02/the-catholic-luther-by-dave-armstrong.html">Review by Matthew Celestis</a> (2-17-15)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"> </span> </span><br />
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<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: large;"><span style="color: #38761d;">TABLE OF CONTENTS</span></span><br />
<br />
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">Dedication </span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">Introduction <a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2014/10/introduction-to-my-book-catholic-luther.html">[read online</a>]</span><span style="font-weight: normal;"></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">Sources
and
Abbreviations</span></div>
<div class="western" style="font-weight: normal; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>I.
Bible and Tradition (Authority)</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">1.The
Bible</span><span style="font-weight: normal;"></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">2.
Tradition, Apostolic</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">3.
Fathers of the Church </span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">4.
Deuterocanon /
“Apocrypha”</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">5.
The Bible: Complex and Difficult to
Master</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">6.
The Bible:
Eisegesis</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">7.
The Bible: Proof from / Harmony
with</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>II.
Doctrine of the Church (Ecclesiology)</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">1.
Catholicism</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">2.
Apostolic Succession</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">3.
Binding, Dogmatic Authority </span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">4.
The Infallible Church </span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">5.
Indefectibility of the Church </span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">6.
Church Councils </span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">7.
Ordination / Clergy </span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">8.
Bishops</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">9.
Celibacy </span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">10.
Denominationalism, Sectarianism, Fanaticism</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
11.
Sinners in the
Church</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
12. Papal
Supremacy and Headship</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
13.
Authority: Obedience
to</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
14. Holy
Mother Church / Wrongness of Schism</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
15.
Excommunication</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
16. Pope,
Reverence
for</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
17.
Heresy</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
18. Rome:
The Apostolic
See</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
19. Monks
and Monastic
Vows</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
20. No
Salvation Outside the
Church</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>III.</b></span><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span><span style="font-size: medium;"><b>Theology of Salvation (Soteriology)</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">1.
Necessity of Good Works in the Christian Life</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">2.
Faith and Works</span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"></span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">3.
Works and Salvation </span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">4.
</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Co-Workers
with God / Synergy</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"></span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">5.
</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Justification</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">6.
</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Sanctification</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">7.
</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Salvation
as a Process</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">8.
Denial of Absolute Instant Assurance of </span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Salvation</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"></span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">9.
</span><span style="font-weight: normal;">Original
Sin</span><span style="font-weight: normal;"></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">10.
Theosis / Deification</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">11.
Antinomianism or “Cheap Grace”: Falsity of</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">12.
Grace, Degrees and Increase
of</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">13.
Discipleship / Personal Relationship with Jesus</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">14.
Atonement,
Universal</span>
</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><b>IV.
Penance and Mortification</b></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">1.
Confession</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">2.
Absolution / Sacrament of Penance / Power of the “Keys”</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">3.
Merit </span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">4.
Suffering and Sanctification</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">5.
</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Fasting
and Abstinence</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">6.
</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Bodily
Mortification</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">7.
</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Sharing
the Sufferings of Christ</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"></span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">8.
Indulgences </span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">9.
Indulgences, Abuse of </span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">10.
Contrition </span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">11.
Satisfaction / Penance </span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">12.
Sin, Mortal </span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">13.
Sin, Venial</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">14.
Chastity,
Marital</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><b>V.
Holy Eucharist and the Mass</b></span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">1.
</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Real,
Substantial Presence</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
2.
Co<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">nsubstantiation</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">3.
</span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Consecration:
Proper Words of</span></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">4.
</span><span style="font-weight: normal;">Eucharistic
Adoration</span><span style="font-weight: normal;"></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">5.
</span><span style="font-weight: normal;">Jesus' One Sacrifice,
Memorialized at the Mass</span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">6.
Grace and Strength Received from Holy Communion</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">7.
Eucharist and
Salvation</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">8.
</span></span><i><span style="font-weight: normal;">Ex opere
operato</span></i><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"></span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">9.
Liturgy and
Rites</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">10.
Eucharist and Forgiveness of
Sins</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">11.
Transubstantiation</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">12.
Elevation of the Consecrated
Elements</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">13.
Continued Use of
Latin</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">14.
Holy
Days</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">15.
Priest as the “Alter
Christus”</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">16.
Mass,
Daily</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">17.
Communion in One
Kind</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><b>VI.
Sacraments and Sacramentals</b></span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">1.
</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Baptismal
Regeneration / Baptism in General</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">2.
</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Infant
Baptism</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">3.
</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Baptism
and Being “Born Again”</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">4.
</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Baptism
and Salvation</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"></span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">5.
Confirmation, Sacrament of</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">6.
Anointing / Extreme Unction</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
7.
<span style="font-weight: normal;">Wholehearted Formal Prayer and
Worship</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">8.
Holy
Places</span><span style="font-weight: normal;"></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">9.
Holy and Sacred Items</span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">10.
</span><span style="font-weight: normal;">Genuflection, Bowing, and
Kneeling</span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">11.
</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Crucifixes</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"></span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">12.
Sign of the
Cross</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">13.
Sacramentalism</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">14.
“Believers'” (Adult) Baptism (Falsity
of)</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">15.
Baptism of
Desire</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><b>VII.
Communion of Saints / Angels / Last Things </b></span></span>
</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">1.
Prayer and Penance for the Dead</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">2.
</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Invocation
of Saints</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">3.
</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Imitation
and Veneration of Saints</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">4.
</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Intercession
of Saints and Angels</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">5.
Useful Christian</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
Images</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">6.
</span><span style="font-weight: normal;">Relics</span><span style="font-weight: normal;"></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">7.
Purgatory </span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">8.
Saints</span></span><br />
9<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">.
Idolatry</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">10.
Saints, Communion
of</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><b>VIII.
The Blessed Virgin Mary (Mariology)</b></span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">1.
Sinlessness</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">2.
</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Perpetual
Virginity</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"></span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">3.
</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">“Mother
of God” (</span></span><i><span style="font-weight: normal;">Theotokos</span></i><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">)</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">4.
</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Queen
of Heaven</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"></span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">5.
</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">Spiritual
Mother / Invocation and Intercession of</span></span><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">6.
The Rosary / Hail
Mary</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">7.
Virginity “in Partu” (During
Childbirth)</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">8.
Immaculate Conception or Immaculate Purification</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">9.
Humility and
Christ-Centeredness</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<i><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">10.
Called “Blessed”</span></span></i></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<i><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">11.
Veneration</span></span></i></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<i><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">12.
Images of
Mary</span></span></i></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<i><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">13.
Second Eve / New
Eve</span></span></i></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><b>IX.
Miscellaneous </b></span></span>
</div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">1.
Apologetics</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
<span style="font-weight: normal;">2.
Contraception</span><span style="font-weight: normal;"></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: left;">
3.
Divorce</div>
<br />
<span style="font-size: large;"><span style="color: #38761d;">EXCERPTS </span></span></div>
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2014/10/introduction-to-my-book-catholic-luther.html">Introduction</a> (10-10-14)</span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-size: small;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/875579349143718">On Sacramental Confession</a> [Facebook, 10-14-14] </span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-size: small;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/876847295683590">Invocation of the Blessed Virgin Mary</a> [Facebook, 10-16-14]</span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-size: small;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/888179631217023">Casual Reference to Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) as Scripture</a> [Facebook, 11-6-14]</span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="color: black;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/890621990972787">On What is "Biblical"</a> [Facebook, 11-10-14]</span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="color: black;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/890518017649851">On Merit </a>[Facebook, 11-10-14] </span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="color: black;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/891060180928968">On Eucharistic Adoration </a>[Facebook, 11-11-14] </span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="color: black;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/891064297595223">On the Veneration of the Saints</a> [Facebook, 11-11-14] </span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="color: black;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/891574410877545">Acceptance of the Eucharistic Principle of <i>Ex Opere Operato</i></a> [Facebook, 11-12-14]</span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/892074410827545">On Mary's Virginity "in Partu" (During Childbirth) on Account of Her Sinlessness</a> [Facebook, 11-13-14]</span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/894141890620797">On Purgatory </a>[Facebook, 11-17-14] </span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/894301670604819">On Nestorius and the Bankruptcy of His Reasoning Against Mary as the "Mother of God" </a>[Facebook, 11-17-14] <br /><br /><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/901466729888313">On Sharing the Sufferings of Christ </a>[Facebook, 12-1-14]</span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/902584646443188">Luther Accepts the Sacrifice of the Mass (and He Doesn't)</a> [Facebook, 12-3-14] </span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/902959326405720">Luther Calls Wisdom of Solomon "Scripture"</a> </span></span><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"> [Facebook, 12-4-14] </span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/904374632930856">Luther's Excellent Argument Against "Believers'" (Adult) Baptism</a> [Facebook, 12-6-14] </span></span><br />
<br />
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/904392306262422"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">Luther's Solid Arguments in Favor of Infant Baptism</span></span></a><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"> [Facebook, 12-6-14] </span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/913234185378234">On Contraception and Procreation</a> [Facebook, 12-22-14] </span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/916868095014843">On the Infallibility and Indefectibility of the Church</a> [Facebook, 12-28-14] </span></span> </span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="color: black;"></span> </span></span><br />
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<span style="font-size: large;"><span style="color: #38761d;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">* * * * * </span></span></span></span></span><br />
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<span style="font-size: large;"><span style="color: #38761d;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="color: magenta;">Last Updated on 18 July 2015. </span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
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Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-37805253955103796552015-03-06T01:37:00.000-05:002015-08-10T00:31:00.360-04:00Books by Dave Armstrong: "Footsteps that Echo Forever: My Holy Land Pilgrimage"<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
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<a href="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TdjgeswVWRk/VPttflvhGEI/AAAAAAAAIwc/3f8Yf0vZUtc/s1600/Cover%2B(555%2Bx%2B833%2C%2B253K).jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TdjgeswVWRk/VPttflvhGEI/AAAAAAAAIwc/3f8Yf0vZUtc/s1600/Cover%2B(555%2Bx%2B833%2C%2B253K).jpg" /></a></div>
<br />
<br />
<span style="color: purple;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">The
front cover photograph was taken by Margie Prox Sindelar on 23
October 2014 at Caesarea Philippi: the stunning location where Jesus
designated St. Peter as the “rock” upon which He would build His
Church, and gave Him the “keys of the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew
16:13-19).</span></span></span></div>
<br />
</div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<span style="color: blue;"><span style="font-family: "Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;"><b>[completed on 8 November 2014; 165 pages. Published at Lulu on the same day]</b></span></span><br />
<br />
<br />
<b><span style="color: red;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><b>* * * * * for purchase information, go to the bottom * * * * * </b></span></span> </b><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">[Note: many hundreds of <b>photographs</b> taken on this pilgrimage by Margie Prox Sindelar will be offered on DVDs and CDs in due course. These will serve as fine supplements to this book. I'll add appropriate posts when they are available]</span><b><br /></b></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
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<br />
<div style="text-align: center;">
<span style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: large;">"PERSONAL" INTRODUCTION</span></span><br />
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<div style="text-align: left;">
<span style="font-size: large;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">I've written 47 books so far, and this one is my honest-to-God favorite. It's special and unique, due to the subject matter, and because it was the result of a dream trip of a lifetime. </span></span></span></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
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<span style="font-size: large;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">Secondly, I like it because it's thoroughly soaked in the <i>Bible</i>, and that is my specialty as an apologist. This is a book for Bible lovers: a <i>feast</i>! </span></span></span></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<span style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: large;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">Thirdly, I am thrilled to be able to present some sections of my wife Judy (a very spiritual and "deep" person) explaining her intensely spiritual experiences at holy sites in Israel, as well similar expressions from Margie </span><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">Prox Sindelar. These I consider (far and away) the best portions of the book, because they are extraordinarily descriptive: akin to the great Catholic mystics (whose works I recently <span style="color: black;">compiled into a quotes book). </span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: large;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="color: black;">This was a central goal for me in this volume: to convey to readers <i>exactly</i> what it felt like at these holy places. The ladies did a far better job at that than I did, which is fine: as long as the goal is met (I love working with a "team")! You can read examples of that in the online content for "Day Three," but their reports / comments for Day Eight and Nine in Bethlehem and Jerusalem are (trust me) astonishing beyond words. They send a chill up and down my spine every time I read them.<br /><br />This is also the book above all my other ones, where I really want to reach and touch readers' <i>hearts</i> and <i>souls</i>. </span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<a href="http://biblicalcatholicism.com/"><img alt="http://biblicalcatholicism.com/" border="0" src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-D8SOhMkO_Wc/VcffWZ-3egI/AAAAAAAAJIM/ypyCkR_JBh0/s1600/Square%2BAd%2B%255B250%2Bx%2B250%255D.jpg" title="" /></a></div>
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<span style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: large;">MISC.</span></span><br />
<br />
<div style="text-align: left;">
<span style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: large;"><span style="color: black;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/830372136997773">Introductory Facebook post</a> about the pilgrimage and my conception of this book.</span></span></span> </span></span><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">[8-11-14]</span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">Highly related paper: <a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/886839868017666">"My Wedding Ring: Now an Extraordinary Third-Class Relic (and an Examination of Fine Distinctions of Relic Classes)"</a> [Facebook, 4 November 2014]</span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">Dave Armstrong, Ross Earl Hoffman, and Margie Prox Sindelar discuss the pilgrimage and book on a <a href="http://www.blogtalkradio.com/deeper-truth/2014/11/08/deepertruth-ross-and-margie-back-from-jerusalem">two-hour episode of <i>Deeper Truth</i></a>, on <i>Blog Talk Radio</i> (11-7-14), with Donald Hartley. [play show at the very top of the page]</span></div>
<br />
<br />
<span style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: large;">TABLE OF CONTENTS </span></span></div>
<br />
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
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<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">
</span></span>
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<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><b>Dedication</b> (p. 3)<b> </b></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><b>Introduction</b>:
Anticipating and Reflecting Upon the Pilgrimage </span>Three
Months Ahead of
Time (p. <span style="font-weight: normal;">7) </span></span><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">[<a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2014/08/introduction-anticipating-and.html">read online</a>]</span></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"><b> </b></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><b>Day
One</b>: 18 October 2014 <span style="color: blue;">[The “lay of the land”]</span></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (p. 15)<b> </b></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><b>Day
Two</b>: 19 October <span style="color: blue;">[Mt. Carmel (Elijah) / Caesarea]</span></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"> (p. 21)<b> </b></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><b>Day
Three</b>: 20 October <span style="color: blue;">[Transfiguration / Cana / Nazareth]</span></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: blue;"> </span>(p. 23) </span></span><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"> </span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">[<a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/880266195341700">excerpt on Facebook</a>, f</span><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">eaturing Judy and Margie's profound spiritual experiences at Mt. Tabor and in Nazareth</span>]<span style="font-weight: normal;"><b> </b></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><b>Day
Four</b>: 21 October<span style="color: blue;"> [Sermon on the Mount / Feeding of the </span></span><span style="color: blue;">5,000
/
Capernaum] </span>(p. <span style="font-weight: normal;">33) </span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">["Striking Topographical and Acoustic Facts About the Sermon on the Mount": <a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/880352061999780">book excerpt</a>, Facebook]</span></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"><b> </b></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><b>Archaeological
Interlude No. 1</b>: Has St. Peter's House in </span>Capernaum
Been
Discovered? (p. <span style="font-weight: normal;">37) </span></span><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"> [<a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2014/09/has-st-peters-house-in-capernaum-been.html">read online</a>]<span style="font-weight: normal;"><b> </b></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><b>Day
Five</b>: 22 October <span style="color: blue;">[River Jordan / Mount of Temptation / </span></span><span style="color: blue;">Ancient
Road from Jericho to Jerusalem]</span> (p. <span style="font-weight: normal;">43)</span></span></div>
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">
</span>
<br />
<div class="western" style="font-weight: normal; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span>
</div>
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">
</span>
<br />
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><b>Archaeological
Interlude No. 2</b>: </span>“Bethany
Beyond the Jordan”: History,
Archaeology, and the Location of Jesus' Baptism on the East
Side of the
Jordan (p. <span style="font-weight: normal;">45) </span></span><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> [<a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2014/08/bethany-beyond-jordan-history.html">read online</a>]</span></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"><b> </b></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><b>Day
Six</b>: 23 October <span style="color: blue;">[Caesarea Philippi and the Primacy of
</span></span><span style="color: blue;">Peter]</span><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: blue;"> </span>(p. 69)<b> </b></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><b>Archaeological
Interlude No. 3</b>: Sodom and Gomorrah: the </span>Current
Archaeological Trend of a Location North of the Dead Sea<span style="font-weight: normal;"> (p. 71) </span></span><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">[<a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2014/10/sodom-and-gomorrah-current.html">read online</a>]<span style="font-weight: normal;"><b> </b></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><b>Day
Seven</b>: 24 October<span style="color: blue;"> [Feeding of the 4,000 / Miracle of the </span></span><span style="color: blue;">Demoniac
and the
Swine]</span> (p. <span style="font-weight: normal;">85)</span><b> </b></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><b>Archaeological
Interlude No. 4</b>: Has Joshua's Altar on Mt. Ebal Been Discovered and
Verified by Archaeology? (p. <span style="font-weight: normal;">87) </span></span><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">[<a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2014/07/has-joshuas-altar-on-mt-ebal-been.html">read online</a>]<span style="font-weight: normal;"><b> </b></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><b>Day
Eight</b>: 25 October<span style="color: blue;"> [Bethlehem and the First Christmas]</span></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: blue;"> </span>(p. 101)<b> </b></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">[read my article, <a href="http://themichigancatholic.com/2014/12/the-spiritual-joy-of-visiting-bethlehem/">The Spiritual Joy of Visiting Bethlehem</a> (<i>The Michigan Catholic</i>, 26 Dec. 2014) ]</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><b><br /></b></span></span>
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">[see also a <a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/930662780302041">video of the actual manger</a>, which is currently located in Rome]<b><br /></b></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><b>Day
Nine</b>: 26 October <span style="color: blue;">[Church of the Holy Sepulchre]</span></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: blue;"> </span>(p. 107)<b> </b></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">[read my article,</span> <a href="http://www.setonmagazine.com/catholic/spirituality/feel-like-visit-golgotha#XhmGgiTJIq2IR8ll.99">What Does It Feel Like to Visit Golgotha?</a> (<i>Seton Magazine</i>, 3 Dec. 2014) ]</span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><b>Archaeological
Interlude No. 5</b>: The Locations of Jesus' </span>Crucifixion,
His Tomb, and the Route of the Via Dolorosa (p. <span style="font-weight: normal;">115) </span></span><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">[<a href="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-locations-of-jesus-crucifixion-his.html">read online</a>]</span></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"><b> </b></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><b>Day
Ten</b>: 27 October <span style="color: blue;">[Ascension / Gethsemane / Mary's Tomb / </span></span><span style="color: blue;">St.
Stephen / City of David / Melchizedek / Hezekiah's Tunnel / Pool of
Siloam / Rachel's Tomb / Mary's Resting Place]</span> (p. <span style="font-weight: normal;">133)</span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">[see the <a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/882993945068925">video of the sunburst and remarkably flowing water at the Pool of Siloam</a>; also a photograph of the sunburst below; also <a href="http://www.setonmagazine.com/latest-articles/signs-in-jerusalem-how-god-can-speak-to-you-through-coincidence">my article about our visit there</a>, in <i>Seton Magazine</i>, 17 Dec. 2014]<b> </b></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><b>Archaeological
Interlude No. 6</b>: City of David and Related Finds: </span>The
Exciting Cutting-Edge of Biblical and Jerusalem Archaeology (p. <span style="font-weight: normal;">141) </span></span><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">[read the <a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/834822399886080">introductory portion and related comments</a>, on Facebook]</span></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"><b> </b></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><b>Day
Eleven</b>: 28 October <span style="color: blue;">[Khirbet Qeiyafa / David and Goliath / </span></span><span style="color: blue;">Gamaliel
and
Paul] </span>(p. <span style="font-weight: normal;">155)<b> </b></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><b>Day
Twelve</b>: 29 October <span style="color: blue;">[Temple Mount / Pool of Bethesda / </span></span><span style="color: blue;">Birthplace
of Mary / Fortress Antonia / St. Helena's Church / Wailing
Wall / Temple Archaeology] </span>(p. <span style="font-weight: normal;">157) </span></span></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div class="western" style="margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> </span></span>[<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-style: normal;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">"Why I Walked on the Steps That Jesus Walked On (Holy Places, Relics, and the Sacramental Principle)": <a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/884267121608274">excerpt on Facebook]</a></span></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"><b> </b></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">[see a <a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/895568730478113">video of our guide Meir More talking at the first-century steps</a> leading to the temple, that Jesus would have walked]<b> </b></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><b>Day
Thirteen</b>: 30 October<span style="color: blue;"> [Dormition Abbey / David's Tomb / </span></span><span style="color: blue;">Upper
Room / Caiaphas and Peter's Denials / Prison (Jesus and Peter)
/ Western Wall
Tunnels] </span>(p. <span style="font-weight: normal;">163)</span></span></div>
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<div style="text-align: center;">
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<span style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: large;"></span></span></div>
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<a href="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0LuIdPEreys/VF6rPNrqFII/AAAAAAAAIi4/E1MxzogJ4CQ/s1600/SunburstPoolofSiloam.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="426" src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0LuIdPEreys/VF6rPNrqFII/AAAAAAAAIi4/E1MxzogJ4CQ/s1600/SunburstPoolofSiloam.jpg" width="640" /></a></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<span style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: large;"><span style="color: blue;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">Sunburst at the Pool of Siloam: 27 October 2014 (photograph by Margie Prox Sindelar), just as our guide read the passage of Jesus healing the blind man at this spot, and saying He was the "light of the world." We have the whole thing on video as well: see above, under "Day Ten."</span></span></span></span></span><br />
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<span style="color: magenta;">Last updated on <span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">18 July</span> 2015.</span><br />
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Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-14378392400340963172015-01-30T02:58:00.000-05:002015-08-10T00:28:09.464-04:00"Live Chat" Exchange with Mark Shea on Waterboarding<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
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By Dave Armstrong (1-30-15)<br />
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I tried, folks. I <i>mightily</i> tried. I summoned (only by God's grace, believe me) every last fiber and nerve in me of patience, and was willing to be a punching bag for two hours, in order to achieve rational dialogue with Mark. You be the judge. This took place in the wee hours of 1-30-15 and was about 75 minutes in duration. Mark's words will be in <span style="color: blue;">blue</span>.<br />
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<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357254891144314:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357254891144314:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357254891144314:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357254891144314:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357254891144314:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$32:0">The <i>huge</i> irony in all this insofar as I have been attacked is that I am <i><b>agnostic </b></i>on waterboarding (as to whether it is torture or not), not an <i>advocate</i> of it, let alone for torture.
I have moved closer to thinking that waterboarding may be torture,
based on <a href="http://unamsanctamcatholicam.com/social-teaching/moral-issues/93-social-teaching/moral-issues/503-torture-historical-and-ethical-perspectives.html">an excellent article </a>I read on the <i>Unam Sanctam</i> <i>Catholicam </i>website, and by
dialoguing with a certain person who is able to talk about the issue
minus the gratuitous and juvenile epithets. I sure ain't gonna
change my mind through the tactics of being compared to Holocaust
deniers, Nazis, and Americanists. As always, I change my
mind by rational persuasion and being shown either compelling biblical
or magisterial data.</span><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357254891144314:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$33:0" /><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357254891144314:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$35:0" /><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357254891144314:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$36:0">I
don't enjoy being an agnostic about <i>anything</i>. It's not my nature. But
I'd rather be that than intellectually dishonest. So here I am. Insult
away, or else try to use reason, that I am altogether willing to hear
and interact with.</span></span></span></span></span> </span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Mark Shea said that anyone holding my position [agnostic on whether waterboarding is torture and intrinsically evil] is "insane". . .]</span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Moi
aussi. I've had almost no conversation with you, Dave, but somehow
you've decided to apply stuff I've said in other contexts to yourself.
If the shoe fits wear it, I guess. But I have no idea if the shoe fits
you. You decided that for yourself. So I don't even know what I'm
supposed to apologize for.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">You
said that anyone who held this position was "insane" during the short
time you visited my Facebook page (which is quite in "my context"). It's
a simple logical deduction:</span></span><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">1. "Anyone who believes y is insane."</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$7:0" />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$8:0">2. x believes y.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$11:0" />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$12:0">3, Therefore, x must be insane.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></blockquote>
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$16:0">Surely
you can grasp this logic. It has nothing to do with whether <i>I</i> decided
if the shoe fit or not. I have never believed that I was insane. <i>You</i>
decided that all of us who disagree wear this "shoe" of
"insanity" (and a host of other things). Then when called on it, <i>this</i>
is the lame response you invariably make, as if <i>we </i>are paranoid and
illogically applying what <i>you</i> said yourself.</span><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$17:0" /><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$19:0" /><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$20:0">I
didn't ask you to apologize. I merely mentioned you in connection with
my observation that those of your position have come up with "a very
colorful collection of epithets."</span><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$21:0" /><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$23:0" /><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357276741142129:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$24:0">Another
prime example of the ridiculous sophistry that you regularly bring to
this topic is to say that folks are advocating "drowning" when they
think waterboarding is permissible. Newsflash: it ain't drowning: which
results in a dead person. It's not even <i>attempted</i> drowning. But that
doesn't stop you from your sophistry.</span></span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357277557808714:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357277557808714:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357277557808714:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357277557808714:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">And
the weirdest thing about it is your assumption that your readers are
too stupid to not know that waterboarding is not drowning . . . It
sounds great as a magnificent insult, I guess, so it is used repeatedly,
no matter how inane and vacuous it is.</span></span></span> </span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357283247808145:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357283247808145:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357283247808145:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357283247808145:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Waterboarding
is an attempt to make a
person in his fright and fear (and based on the normal reaction of the
insti</span></span><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357283247808145:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357283247808145:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357283247808145:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">nctual portions of the brain) <i>think</i> he <i>may</i> be drowning. </span><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357283247808145:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357283247808145:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357283247808145:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">But
as I have said, if soldiers are routinely trained in it, then they know
going in that they ain't gonna drown, and that seems significant to me,
though I grant that it likely wouldn't make the experience <i>much</i> less
frightening than it is. The person would simply know in their mind,
"they are not gonna <i>kill</i> me by drowning."</span></span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
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<div style="text-align: center;">
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357286244474512:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357286244474512:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357286244474512:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><br /></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357286244474512:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357286244474512:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357286244474512:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><br /></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span>
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357262517810218:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357286244474512:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357286244474512:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357286244474512:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">Mark doesn't "respond." He preaches and polemicizes on these sorts of issues, and I'm not interested in that. </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357286244474512:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357286244474512:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357286244474512:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">"Dialogue" (ha ha) with him is nonexistent after he gets on his soapbox.</span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357286244474512:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357286244474512:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357286244474512:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288101140993:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"></span><span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288101140993:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288101140993:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288101140993:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Mkay. Whatever.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357286244474512:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357286244474512:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357286244474512:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288101140993:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288101140993:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288101140993:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288131140990:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288131140990:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288131140990:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Yes, whatever. The usual . . . </span></span></span> </span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357286244474512:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357286244474512:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357286244474512:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288101140993:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288101140993:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288101140993:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288251140978:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288251140978:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288251140978:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Dave:
What do you <i>want</i>? I offered to discuss it. You come back with the
stuff above, so I drop it. . . . Sheesh.</span></span></span> </span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288327807637:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288327807637:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288327807637:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I don't want anything from you. You don't discuss this issue.</span></span></span><br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357260981143705:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><br /></span></span></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">What issue? What are you talking about?</span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288507807619:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288507807619:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288507807619:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I
am sick and tired of sophistry and hyper-polemics. <i>Period</i>. It's not <i>personal</i>.
It's not being <i>sensitive</i> or being<i> hurt</i>. It is a principled objection to
your warping of discussion when waterboarding comes up.</span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288507807619:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288507807619:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288507807619:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357291457807324:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357291457807324:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357291457807324:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357291457807324:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Dave;
The only sophistry comes from people who have labored for ten years to
pretend that torture is compatible with Catholic teaching, that
waterboarding (for which we hanged Japanese) is not torture, that
torture is so mysterious and impossible to d</span></span><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357291457807324:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357291457807324:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357291457807324:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">efine
that we have to just go ahead and approve of whatever it is the CIA did
to prisoners. Beyond this, my point to you, if memory serves, is that
it is the height of folly, after the disclosure of the horrors of the
Senate Report, for <i>Catholics</i> above all to continue to try to split
hairs over waterboarding. It's like abortion defenders deploying
millions of word to argue over whether Kermit Gosnell washed his hands
or only wiped them off on his smock.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288507807619:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288507807619:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288507807619:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357291457807324:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357291457807324:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357291457807324:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357291457807324:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357291457807324:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><br /></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288507807619:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288507807619:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288507807619:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357291457807324:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357291457807324:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357291457807324:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357291457807324:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357291457807324:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">Like that matters. </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288507807619:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288507807619:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288507807619:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357291457807324:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357291457807324:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357291457807324:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357291457807324:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357291457807324:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><br /></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357292327807237:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357292327807237:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357292327807237:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">And yeah, that is insane.</span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288507807619:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288507807619:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288507807619:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357294497807020:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357294497807020:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357294497807020:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357294497807020:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$text0:0:$0:0"><span style="color: blue;">As
to the exhausted, futile, and deeply stupid question "Is waterboarding
really and truly torture?" I totally concur with and always recommend
this exhaustive look at the question: </span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fzippycatholic.wordpress.com%2Fcategory%2Fmoral-theology%2Ftorture-moral-theology-2%2Fwaterboarding-torture-moral-theology%2F&h=MAQHGChqn">Posts About Waterboarding on Zippy Catholic</a>. </span><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357294497807020:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"> <span style="color: blue;">But at thi</span></span></span><span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357294497807020:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357294497807020:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357294497807020:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">s
late date, the whole stupid attempt by Catholics to justify this filth
is like a defense attorney at Nuremburg throwing all his energies into
trying to show that Goering was not guilty of jaywalking. The
gnat/camel inversion ratio would be comically crazy if it were not such a
humiliating stain on "faithful conservative prolife" Catholic honor.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288507807619:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288507807619:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288507807619:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357296024473534:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357296024473534:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357296024473534:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357296024473534:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Is
any physical interrogation permissible at all? This is what
bothers me and what hardly anyone seems to want to work through. I
suspect that if someone could give me a clear principle on that, that I
could resolve my own agnosticism on this.</span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288507807619:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288507807619:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288507807619:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357296024473534:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357296024473534:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357296024473534:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357296987806771:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357296987806771:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357296987806771:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$0:0"><span style="color: blue;">Dave: Tolle, lege:</span> </span>[link to the book, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0085S1S5K/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0085S1S5K&linkCode=as2&tag=marksheacom-20&linkId=DIOKGD4CDG5HGGIB"><i>How to Break a Terrorist</i></a>]<span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357296987806771:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">
<span style="color: blue;"> The guy is a professional interrogator. We had long-standing rules
for ethical interrogation before Bush/Cheney authorized torture.
Instead of trying to figure out how brutal we can be, why not ask "How
do we treat prisoners humanely and get the intel we need?" Turns out
those two projects are not in opposition.</span></span></span></span><span style="color: blue;"> </span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357297304473406:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357297304473406:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357297304473406:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357297187806751:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357297187806751:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357297187806751:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">Sure. How do we do that? That <i>is </i>my question. Is anything physical whatever permissible towards that end?</span></span></span> Can, e.g.,
a cop can kill a child abuser holding a sexual slave (i.e., in the
classic hostage scenario), but he can't slap him on the wrist to find
out about said slave's whereabouts?</span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357297304473406:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357297304473406:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357297304473406:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357297861140017:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"></span><span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357297861140017:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357297861140017:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357297861140017:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I
repeat: Why is it so urgent for you to find out how much abuse you can
heap on a prisoner instead of asking "How can we treat prisoners
humanely and get the intel we need?" It's like its more important to
find a rationale for abuse than to get the intel. Read the book. it's
about the answer to your question.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298051139998:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298051139998:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298051139998:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">That
book talks about non-physical methods (which are great: more
power to him). I am asking whether we can ever lay a hand on anyone at
any time (because the Church has certainly sanctioned some version of
that for centuries). You say no to that, too?</span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298051139998:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298051139998:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298051139998:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298164473320:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298164473320:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298164473320:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298164473320:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I'm
not trying to abuse anyone. I'm trying to find out the underlying
ethical principles that can guide us in this stuff, just as just war
theory guides wars.</span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298051139998:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298051139998:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298051139998:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298164473320:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298164473320:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298164473320:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298571139946:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298571139946:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298571139946:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298571139946:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I will read the book. But I need to have other questions plausibly answered, too, in order to become persuaded of your position.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298051139998:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298051139998:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298051139998:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298164473320:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298164473320:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298164473320:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298571139946:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298571139946:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298571139946:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298967806573:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298967806573:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357298967806573:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">You
apparently missed my question: So a cop can kill a child abuser
holding a sexual slave (i.e., in the classic hostage scenario), but he
can't slap him on the wrist to find out about said slave's whereabouts?</span></span></span> </span></span></span> </span></span></span> </span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357299444473192:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357299444473192:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357299444473192:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357299444473192:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I am <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_questioning">a Socratic</a>. </span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357300154473121:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357300154473121:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357300154473121:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357300154473121:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">There
is no Catholic document delineating every species of torture just as
there is not document delineating every conceivable form of sexual
perversion. The Church does not proceed by saying "See how close you
can get to mortal sin but don't quite do</span></span><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357300154473121:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357300154473121:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357300154473121:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">
it." It starts with the good. In this case, the good of human
dignity. The Church gives a positive command, not a list legalistic
prohibition attached to the words "Simon Peter says." There. is. no.
definitive. list.of. torture, Dave. None. Zip. Zero. Nada. There is
the command to treat prisoners humanely. Do that and you will not
accidentally torture them or waste time trying to figure out how hard and
often you can punch or drown them before it's torture. Why is it <i>so
important</i> to want to know that you can beat up a prisoner?</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357301537806316:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357301537806316:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357301537806316:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Are
any physical methods of interrogation permissible, in your view? Simple
yes or no answer. You don't have to psychoanalyze me, engage in
psycho-babble, polemicize, spin, use wonderful turns of phrase. Just
Yes.Or.No.</span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357301537806316:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357301537806316:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357301537806316:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357302971139506:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357302971139506:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357302971139506:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I don't want to <b>do</b> <i>anything</i>. I want guidelines and I want to understand and work through the premises involved in this.</span></span></span> </span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357301677806302:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357301677806302:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357301677806302:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">So
we are left with the expertise of people who do this work, Matthew
Alexander is an expert in interrogation. Bishops are not. They give
the guideline and good interrogators give us tips on how that guideline
has been met without torture and abuse.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357301907806279:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357301907806279:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357301907806279:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Why
are you asking people with zero experience in interrogation? Why not
read Alexander and find out how humane interrogation is done?</span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357301907806279:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357301907806279:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357301907806279:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357302751139528:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357302751139528:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357302751139528:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357302751139528:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I assume you mean by "physical" "inflicting pain or terror"? Why do you want to do that so badly when it is not necessary?</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357302957806174:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357302957806174:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357302957806174:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">You do get that just war and human interrogation are not opposites but the same thing, right?</span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357303271139476:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357303271139476:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357303271139476:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">The guideline is "treat prisoners humanely".</span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357304141139389:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357304141139389:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357304141139389:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">AKA
"Do what the Army Field Manual said to do before Bush/Cheney broke with
decades of practice and started torturing people. Not complicated.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357304141139389:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357304141139389:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357304141139389:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357304461139357:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357304461139357:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357304461139357:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">What did that manual say? Could POWs be physically dealt with?</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357304141139389:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357304141139389:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357304141139389:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357304461139357:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357304461139357:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357304461139357:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357304587806011:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357304587806011:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357304587806011:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">The premise is "man is made in the image and likeness of God". Therefore do not torture him.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357304711139332:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357304711139332:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357304711139332:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">No one is advocating torture.</span></span></span><br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357304141139389:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357304141139389:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357304141139389:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"> </span></span></span> </span></span></span><br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">It's like pulling teeth to get answers out of you. </span></span></span>I<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357307804472356:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357307804472356:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357307804472356:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">f people want to hide things, they avoid simple questions, as you have been doing again and again.</span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"></span><span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Why
do you keep saying "physically dealt with" when you mean "subjected to
physical pain or terror in order to break his will". That is what you
mean, right?</span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305711139232:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305711139232:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305711139232:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">No, Dave. Prisoners are to be treated humanely.</span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305714472565:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305714472565:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305714472565:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305714472565:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Can the person who has sexual slaves who are starving be slapped in order to find out where they are?</span></span></span> </span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305987805871:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305987805871:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305987805871:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">So prisoners can't be touched at all?</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305987805871:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305987805871:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305987805871:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357306261139177:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357306261139177:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357306261139177:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Of
course they can be touched. But you can't beat them up, as you clearly
long to do. Because the goal is to get intel, not torture them. </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357307757805694:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357307757805694:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357307757805694:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"> I'm saying they cannot be slapped. That's abuse.</span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308234472313:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308234472313:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308234472313:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">So the touching is stroking their hair? I get it.</span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308234472313:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308234472313:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308234472313:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308447805625:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308447805625:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308447805625:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I'm
also saying that is sick and weird to hear a Catholic apologist
laboring with intensity to try to figure out when a defenseless prisoner
can be beaten.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308234472313:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308234472313:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308234472313:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308447805625:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308447805625:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308447805625:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308537805616:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308537805616:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308537805616:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Do you understand what a socratic discussion is, Mark?</span></span></span> </span></span></span> </span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308621138941:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308621138941:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308621138941:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">And now we get the old "It's torture or kisses on the nose" lie.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308621138941:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308621138941:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308621138941:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308744472262:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308744472262:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308744472262:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Oh, brother.</span></span></span> </span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308807805589:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308807805589:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308807805589:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308807805589:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Maybe not. <i>Probably</i> not, by the looks of it.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308807805589:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308807805589:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308807805589:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357317201138083:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357317201138083:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357317201138083:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Dude,
go read the Alexander book. At present, your obvious goal is to figure
out a way to rationalize beating prisoners, since you assume that is
necessary in the fantasy scenarios you are constructing to rationalize
beating prisoners. I'm saying get out of your fantasy world and go read
something by somebody who has done the work without torturing anybody.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308807805589:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308807805589:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357308807805589:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357317201138083:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357317201138083:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357317201138083:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357317297804740:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357317297804740:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357317297804740:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357317297804740:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Right, Mark. Gotcha.</span></span></span> </span></span></span> </span></span></span> </span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357317367804733:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357317367804733:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357317367804733:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Shea out. Too much surreality for me.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357317367804733:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357317367804733:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357317367804733:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357317417804728:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357317417804728:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357317417804728:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Too much sophistry for me.</span></span></span> </span></span></span> </span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305124472624:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357305381139265:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"> </span></span></span> </span></span></span><br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">* * * * *</span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">[the next day]</span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Dave:
When your <i>entire</i> approach is to seek a rationale for slapping a
defenseless person and to spend tremendous intellectual energy on trying
to figure how hard you can slap him, how many times, and how to do that
without being nailed for torture a</span></span></span><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span style="color: blue;"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">nd
abuse--all in the name of Catholic apologetics, don't be surprised when
somebody says, "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of
you."</span></span><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span style="color: blue;">The <i>real</i> Catholic approach is not to try to figure out how much abuse you
can get away with, but to ask "How do we treat prisoners humanely and
get the intel we need?" The witness of reality is that these two
projects are harmonious, not opposed.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"> </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
My <i>entire</i> approach is to seek truth by means of the socratic method, as I
have always done (well, at least since Philosophy 0101 in 1977). You
obviously understand neither socratic method, nor elementary Christian
ethics, because you are lightning-quick to accuse and mind-rape. This is
serious sin.<br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357476484455488:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357476484455488:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357476484455488:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Dave;
With respect, your quest to find a rationale for slapping defenseless
people is as socratic as "when did you stop beating your wife?" Begin
with the wrong question, arrive at the wrong conclusion.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357476501122153:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357476501122153:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357476501122153:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357476501122153:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Your
bullying tactics don't work with me, Mark. I'm not scared of you and
never have been. You don't and won't shut me up by your ranting and
raving and chest-puffing and "orthodoxy cop" schtick (that you condemned
for years and now do yourself). You c</span></span><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357476501122153:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357476501122153:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357476501122153:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">an
whine and squawk and use sophistry all you like. It doesn't work. I see
right through it. I know what is in my own head and in my heart. You do
not, and never will, as long as you use your considerable intellectual
abilities and energies to lie about others and slander and caricature.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357476501122153:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357476501122153:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357476501122153:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357476501122153:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357476501122153:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357476861122117:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357476861122117:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357476861122117:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Ranting
and raving and chest-puffing? What are you talking about? I'm stating
facts. The Church begins with "treat prisoners humanely", not "Try to
figure out a rationale for slapping and drowning them".</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357490484454088:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357490484454088:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357490484454088:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I
don't think you're lying and neither said nor implied that. I think
you are proceeding from a set of unconscious assumptions and therefore
beginning with the wrong question, Dave.</span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357491197787350:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357491197787350:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357491197787350:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">To
the contrary, if I repeatedly clarify, "I am not thinking x <i>at all</i>,"
and you come back repeatedly with "why are you thinking and asserting
<i>x</i>??!!" then you have assumed that I am lying about my own internal
state, whether you actually say that outright or not. It follows from
inexorable logic. It's neither logical nor charitable thought. I'm the
world's biggest expert (among human beings, anyway) on what goes on in
my own head and heart.</span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357491711120632:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357491711120632:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357491711120632:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">When
you repeatedly press for a rationale for slapping and drowning people,
don't be surprised if people hear you pressing for a rationale for
slapping and drowning people and respond accordingly, Dave. You may not
realize that is what you are doing, but that is what you are doing.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357493811120422:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357493811120422:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357493811120422:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357493811120422:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Right.
You're incapable of true philosophical discussion: at least if it is a
topic that you preach and rant and rave about (as this one is). You
don't know how to do it. Actual philosophers (Feser and Beckwith) noted
this years ago (on this topic). </span><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357493811120422:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357493811120422:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357493811120422:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">You
don't get it. So because you don't <i>get</i> what I am doing, and can't <i>grasp</i> it
(because it is a different view from your own), you feel compelled to
caricature it and come up with this pompous bilge of <span style="color: blue;">"You may not
realize that is what you are doing, but that is what you are doing."</span></span><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357493811120422:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357493811120422:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357493811120422:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$8:0">Mostly
it comes from hostility, which confuses clear thinking every time. A
non-hostile Christian would never in a million years treat a fellow
Catholic the way I have been treated here. It's disgraceful. The
hostility poisons personal relations and logical thought alike.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357493811120422:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357493811120422:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357493811120422:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$8:0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357494424453694:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357494424453694:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357494424453694:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357494424453694:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">There's
the "drowning" thing again, which is a fallacy from the get-go. No one
is drowning. No one is advocating it. Nothing is drowning (except for
the idiotic pseudo-"thinking" that resides between your ears when you
engage in such sophistry). You are drowning in sophistry and stupid
rhetoric. That's the only "drowning" here.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="color: blue;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357493811120422:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357493811120422:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357493811120422:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$8:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357494721120331:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357494721120331:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357494721120331:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357494721120331:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">In
short, Dave, I am not your enemy. You have repeatedly pressed me for
my views on torture and the sundry apologetics for waterboarding (aka
torture). I've given them. I've also made clear that, since the
release of the Senate Report, Catholic atte</span></span><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357494721120331:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357494721120331:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357494721120331:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">mpts
to rationalize waterboarding are like attempts to show that Goering was
not guilty of jaywalking. Folly, and a source of scandal. Beyond
that, I have little to add. if you approach the question as the Church
does, asking "How do we treat prisoners humanely and get the intel we
need?" you will get reasonable answers to reasonable questions. If you
start by trying to figure out how much slapping and drowning you can
inflict on a defenseless prisoner, you will end in confusion and anger,
because you are starting wrong. You can tell me I'm incapable of a
truly philosophical discussion all you like, but them's the facts and
pretty much all I've ever had to say. God bless you, Dave. I hope you
come to peace, truth, and light about this.</span></span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357493811120422:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357493811120422:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357493811120422:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$8:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357496204453516:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357496204453516:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357496204453516:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Thank
you and God bless you too. I hope you stop grossly caricaturing and
lying about others' views and motivations, minus which you can't
possibly have peace of soul and heart, because it is serious sin.</span></span></span> <br /><br /><span style="color: blue;">God bless you, Dave.</span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">* * * * * </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357288371140966:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357474157789054:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment357086117827858_357475674455569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"> </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
[see also the <a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/937678342933818">accompanying Facebook discussion </a>about this]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.com16tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-15171487881877270822015-01-26T16:32:00.000-05:002015-08-10T00:25:53.507-04:00Condemnation of Slanderous Lies About My Position Regarding Torture and Waterboarding + Removal of My Post Dealing With Matthew 18:34 <div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<a href="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-8tRHi4WWbtg/VMaHXfuRCgI/AAAAAAAAIrY/bJAY99oojz8/s1600/AngryMan2.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"></span></a></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<span style="font-family: inherit;">By Dave Armstrong (1-26-15)</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span></div>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">I have removed a blog post of mine (and two related Facebook discussion posts) that deal with Matthew 18:34, as related to the vexed "waterboarding / torture" issue. I have done so because in the present hysterical, fanatical, anti-rational, "us vs. them" climate that prevails online when it comes to discussion of this issue, <i>my reasoning cannot possibly be grasped</i> (i.e., by those people who are acting hysterically and judgmentally).</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">I love the Bible; love to engage in amateur exegesis and to discuss (like all lovers of the Bible) what various passages mean. This has been ridiculously distorted to mean (in this instance, given the atrocious mentality that prevails) that I am supposedly equating my thoughts with dogma or the magisterium.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">My actual position has been incredibly distorted in certain quarters. <i>This</i> is my position:</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">1. Torture is intrinsically wrong. The church has made this very clear.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">2. I am agnostic as to whether the practice of waterboarding is a species of torture.</span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">My true position has been distorted and caricatured by my critics as the following:</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;">1. I <span style="color: blue;">[supposedly] </span>am "pro-torture" and defend torture and am a "torture apologist."</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">2. I <span style="color: blue;">[supposedly] </span>claim (in this paper) that Jesus was "pro-torture" [in the sense that the Church has condemned].</span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">Woe unto me, that I dared to look at a Scripture passage that mentioned "torment" or "torture" (defined as interrogatory practices). It wasn't <i>my</i> initial argument or speculation. I first saw it in the context of a very elaborate presentation of the <a href="http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt118.html">scriptural data concerning corporal punishment </a>by Australian moral theologian Fr. Brian Harrison.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">It's important to note that Fr. Harrison is<i> Australian</i> because it is charged that any doubt whatsoever as to the status of waterboarding as torture is strictly an "American" and "Neo-conservative" position, and inevitably drawn therefrom. Likewise, it is important to note that he is a <i>moral theologian</i>, because I am being accused of setting myself up (as an apologist) as some sort of pseudo-magisterium. Fr. Harrison wrote in his paper:</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;">Jesus clearly builds on this Old Testament
foundation of a nascent, minimal recognition of the need for
moderation in chastising one’s fellow men made in God’s
image. The New Testament data furnishing some kind of basis for a
moral evaluation of such penal practices are not abundant, but
significant. On the one hand, we find no direct or outright
condemnation of the aforesaid Mosaic punishments as being
intrinsically unjust or evil. It would be implausible to try
reading any ethical <i>censure</i> into Jesus’ mention of
temporal torture in the parable of the unforgiving debtor (Mt 18:
34), in view of his immediate comparison of this treatment with
that to be meted out in eternity by "my heavenly Father" (cf. B2
above). The same can be said of the floggings referred to in the
parable of the wicked servant (Lk 12: 47-48, cf. B3), particularly
in the light of our Lord’s own action narrated in Jn 2: 15
(cf. B6). It seems plain from the text that his "whip" was used to
strike the money changers themselves, not only the animals –
and with considerable force.</span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">Fr. Harrison, since the time of this paper (July 2005) has clarified that he fully accepts the Church definition of torture as intrinsically immoral (<a href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/markshea/2010/03/clarification-by-fr-brian-harrison-o-s.html">on 11 March 2010</a>). He and others have also noted that there must sensibly be more than one meaning of "torture" insofar as historically, the Church (and folks like St. Thomas Aquinas) have without question sanctioned various forms of corporal punishment (such as in the various Inquisitions). Of course, any such fine distinctions are lost upon the fanatics and hysterical polemicists out there discussing this issue on a daily basis. Fr. Harrison, like myself, was never "pro-torture." In his clarification he stated:</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;">As a matter of fact, I <i>never have </i>expressed any positive personal approval of torture for that last-mentioned purpose (and much less for any other purpose).</span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">Fr. Harrison also reiterated at the same time that he remains agnostic as to whether waterboarding is torture (in the sense that it is condemned by the Church):</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;">Nobody disputes that the CIA-approved waterboarding was a thoroughly
nasty and frightening experience. However, I submit that whether or not
it reached the point of torture does remain a seriously disputed
question among reasonable and well-informed people. </span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">He also condemned the usual hysterical discussions online (such as the ones now leading to false accusations coming my way): </span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;">. . . I certainly intend to devote
more study to this and related issues. However this will be my only
statement on the matter in this forum. Indeed, I do not normally read
this (or any other) blog, mainly because I think disputes in the
blogosphere tend to generate more heat than light – especially since
they so often involve intemperate, unsubstantiated, anonymous – and
therefore cowardly – attacks on persons and reputations. Also, heat is
often accompanied by smoke; so I hope that this present clarification of
my own position at least clears the air somewhat.</span></blockquote>
<div style="background-color: white; border: medium none; color: black; overflow: hidden; text-align: left; text-decoration: none;">
</div>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">Fr. Harrison is not alone in his assessment concerning waterboarding. Catholic Answers published an <a href="http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=7390&CFID=22134666&CFTOKEN=70739727">article of his on the overall topic</a> ("The Church and Torture") in December 2006. On 1 May and 3 May 2014, competing articles appeared on the Catholic Answers blog: <a href="http://www.catholic.com/blog/todd-aglialoro/what-about-waterboarding">Todd Aglialoro </a> arguing that waterboarding may <i>not</i> be torture, and <a href="http://www.catholic.com/blog/michelle-arnold/waterboarding-reconsidered">Michelle Arnold</a> arguing that it <i>is</i>. Obviously, then, Catholic Answers (the largest and most influential lay Catholic apologetics organization) has not taken a <i>dogmatic </i>stand that the Church is <i>definitely against waterboarding as torture</i> (as all the hysterical fanatics writing on the topic think is self-evident). Michelle wrote in her article:</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;">Todd emphasized in his blog post that "<i>All my musings are mine alone
and do not purport to be the final interpretation of Church teaching or
the official opinion of Catholic Answers</i>" (emphasis in original).
Please keep in mind that Todd's disclaimer is also my own. Neither of us
purports to define the matter for the Church or to give the official
opinion of Catholic Answers. And please note that these are personal
blog posts; they are not in the same category of Catholic Answers'
publications as books, tracts, or magazine articles.</span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">Moreover, CA staffer Jimmy Akin has staked out an agnostic position as well, in numerous thoughtful articles, collected with many others in my list of links of "Calm, Reasoned (Rather Than Hyper-Polemical) Orthodox Catholic Resources". Likewise, prominent orthodox Catholic philosophers Francis Beckwith and Edward Feser . . . My own position is laid out clearly there, and we have actually had civil discussions on my Facebook page about it (one combox had over 1000 comments).</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">Now we shall examine the present nonsense being spewed about my alleged opinions and arguments in particular. It seems that I am the target of a witch hunt. Ross Earl Hoffman has been the leading purveyor in recent months of the hysterical, fanatical "torture" polemic. He is inspired by Mark Shea, who has been writing hyper-polemically on the issue for literally almost ten years now. Lately they have been joined by canon lawyer Pete Vere. The latest "round" in a long string of attacks came on Ross Earl Hoffman's Facebook page (posted on 1-26-15) and <a href="https://www.facebook.com/RoamingRomans/photos/a.1712156918925473.1073741828.1703580483116450/1942241002583729/?type=1&theater">cross-posted on his <i>Roaming Romans</i> page</a> (same date). He cited the recent Facebook words of Pete Vere (who goes by "Torquemada Tequila"):</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422290603836=268cc2bf44c8ecd1240.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422290603836=268cc2bf44c8ecd1240.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422290603836=268cc2bf44c8ecd1240.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">From the wall of a VERY concerned Catholic Torquemada Tequila:</span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422290603836=268cc2bf44c8ecd1240.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422290603836=268cc2bf44c8ecd1240.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422290603836=268cc2bf44c8ecd1240.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"></span></span></span><br data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422290603836=268cc2bf44c8ecd1240.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422290603836=268cc2bf44c8ecd1240.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422290603836=268cc2bf44c8ecd1240.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422290603836=268cc2bf44c8ecd1240.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$4:0" style="font-family: inherit;">Note
to my Canadian friends, as well as my non-Catholic friends, who may
have come across the following [one of my Facebook cross-posting of my blog article, mentioned above] and found yourselves scandalized by it.
Especially my friends from the veteran community:</span></span></span></blockquote>
<blockquote>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422290603836=268cc2bf44c8ecd1240.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422290603836=268cc2bf44c8ecd1240.2:0.0.0.0.0.0" style="font-family: inherit;"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422290603836=268cc2bf44c8ecd1240.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$4:0"> </span><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422290603836=268cc2bf44c8ecd1240.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$6:0">This is NOT the teaching of the Catholic Church. This is NOT Catholicism.</span></span></span><br />
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422290603836=268cc2bf44c8ecd1240.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422290603836=268cc2bf44c8ecd1240.2:0.0.0.0.0.0" style="font-family: inherit;"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422290603836=268cc2bf44c8ecd1240.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$6:0"> </span><br data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422290603836=268cc2bf44c8ecd1240.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422290603836=268cc2bf44c8ecd1240.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$8:0">This
is, as they say in professional wrestling when one of the performers
fails to follow script, a certain apologist "going into business for
himself."</span><br data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422290603836=268cc2bf44c8ecd1240.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422290603836=268cc2bf44c8ecd1240.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$10:0"> </span></span></span><br />
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422290603836=268cc2bf44c8ecd1240.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422290603836=268cc2bf44c8ecd1240.2:0.0.0.0.0.0" style="font-family: inherit;"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422290603836=268cc2bf44c8ecd1240.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$10:0">I
find this unfortunate given that he has produced much quality
apologetics material in the past. However, I know of no post-conciliar
pope or bishop who would sanction such a (mis)interpretation of the
Gospel. For that reason, after going back and forth in my mind for the
past week, I am making the difficult decision to withdraw any and all
past endorsements of Mr Armstrong's apologetics material.</span><br data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422290603836=268cc2bf44c8ecd1240.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422290603836=268cc2bf44c8ecd1240.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$12:0"> </span></span></span><br />
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422290603836=268cc2bf44c8ecd1240.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422290603836=268cc2bf44c8ecd1240.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422290603836=268cc2bf44c8ecd1240.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$12:0" style="font-family: inherit;">Please
keep us both in prayer. Dave, that he realizes the division and scandal
this is causing the Body of Christ universally. Myself, that I can
remain focused upon the truth and resist the temptation to reply out of
vengeance.</span></span></span></blockquote>
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<a href="http://biblicalcatholicism.com/"><img alt="http://biblicalcatholicism.com/" border="0" src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-D8SOhMkO_Wc/VcffWZ-3egI/AAAAAAAAJIM/ypyCkR_JBh0/s1600/Square%2BAd%2B%255B250%2Bx%2B250%255D.jpg" title="" /></a></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span></div>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">Pete has lost almost all restraint, even of common decency, in his comments over the last month about this (though he did issue a qualified apology for language in his recent post: not, of course, to <i>me</i> personally). He's literally compared me (or anyone who holds my agnostic position on waterboarding) to Nazis, Holocaust deniers, geocentrist fanatics; he made out that I was a mere shill for the Republican Party and "pro-torture" and am letting supposed "Americanism" prevail over against my Catholicism. Then he started an attack on apologetics itself.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">He is guilty of much hypocrisy on all these points. He co-wrote a book with me just a few months ago, about Orthodoxy (his portions have since been removed). In that book he wrote:</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western">
<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: small;">Allow
me to open by thanking Dave Armstrong for inviting me to be part of
this dialogue. I first met Dave online during the rise of the
Catholic apologetics movement in the 1990s. Dave’s work was
instrumental in drawing me back to full communion with Rome; first as
a Pentecostal, and second as an adherent to reactionary and
schismatic Latin traditionalism.</span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western">
<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: small;"> To
this end, I am forever grateful to Dave for helping me understand the
beauty and necessity of full communion with the Roman Catholic
Church: especially as a Catholic who, for the past ten years as of
this writing, has belonged to what historically was founded as an
Eastern Orthodox Church (i.e., prior to restoring full communion with
Rome at the Union of Brest).</span></div>
</blockquote>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span></div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western">
<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: small;">Pete and I have been friends for over fifteen years. Way back on 12 November 2001, Pete conducted an interview with me, in which he wrote:</span></div>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: 100%;">The best kept secret
of the Catholic Apologetics (defense of the Faith) movement is Dave
Armstrong. How do I know? From experience. Some time ago, while
struggling with the Catholicity of the Church after the Second Vatican
Council, I encountered Dave on an email discussion group and immediately
challenged him to a debate. Rather than accept my challenge, Dave
invited me to converse with him on the subjects of the Roman Papacy and
the role of Tradition in the Church. During our conversation, I found
Dave's honesty and sincerity refreshing. With regards to the authentic
expression of Catholicism, he was both gentle and firm. At the time, I
did not know these were hallmarks of Dave's Catholic evangelism, and
this is why Dave was instrumental in bringing me back to the Catholic
Church. Rather than refute any of the objections I raised against the
Catholic Church, Dave held my hand and encouraged me to confront them.
Afterwards we parted ways as friends, my confidence in the Church
restored.</span></blockquote>
<blockquote>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western">
</div>
<div align="JUSTIFY" class="western">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: 100%;">. . . </span><span style="font-size: 100%;">you were one of the
first individuals to engage in active apologetics against modern day
integrism. In fact, you were instrumental in my return to the Catholic
Church from the SSPX schism for this very reason.</span></span></div>
</blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">Pete also (far as I know) remains on friendly terms with Karl Keating, as a frequent visitor to his Facebook page. Yet, as I have shown, Catholic Answers has not made a statement that waterboarding is definitely torture, and in their magazine and blog they have hosted "agnostic" articles by Fr. Harrison and Todd Aglialoro. So why hasn't Pete dissed Catholic Answers and Karl Keating and engaged in melodramatic denunciations and withdrawal of support? I'm just a small fish in the apologetics world. Karl and Catholic Answers are the "big fish." Perhaps<i> that</i> is the reason Pete is reluctant. But he's willing to take <i>me</i> on.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">Moreover, he remains friends with Catholic writer and former blogger Shawn McElhinney, as far as I know. Yet Shawn has written (some years ago now) a lengthy three-part treatment on the torture issue with a view similar if not identical to my own (<a href="http://rerum-novarum.blogspot.com/2006_10_08_rerum-novarum_archive.html#116078507972343337">one</a> / <a href="http://rerum-novarum.blogspot.com/2006_10_08_rerum-novarum_archive.html#116085997132950992">two</a> / <a href="http://rerum-novarum.blogspot.com/2006_10_08_rerum-novarum_archive.html#116111269113654980">three</a>). I don't see Pete ruining <i>their</i> friendship or writing articles condemning <i>him</i> as a Nazi or Holocaust denier, etc. Perhaps Shawn has retracted his position since. If so, these papers still remain online; they have not been removed.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">Shawn also has defended the nuclear bombing of Japan in 1945, in a couple dozen posts on his old blog (<a href="http://rerum-novarum.blogspot.com/search?q=japan">see some of them</a>; some of which attack yours truly), which Pete thinks is a detestable position. I know; I vigorously debated him on the issue in 2005, and our friendship was wrecked because of it. So Pete thinks it's fine to maintain a friendship with a person who passionately <i>defends</i> the incineration of 100,000 civilians, while dissing another "friend" who is <i>agnostic</i> on waterboarding: a practice that has been done on (I believe) all of <i>three</i> terrorist prisoners.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">Here is the exchange I had with Pete Vere (12-31-14) on my long <a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/918321381536181">1000+ comments thread on Facebook</a> (his words in <span style="color: #38761d;">green</span>):</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: #38761d;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918551324846520:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918551324846520:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0" style="font-family: inherit;"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918551324846520:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Outside
of certain segments of American Catholicism, the Church at present is
pretty broad and unanimous in rejecting waterboarding as a form of
torture. So theologians won't be debating this for decades to come. In
fact,over on my facebook page, friend and fellow canonist Fr Philip Lee
Erickson provided a short summary of the Church's condemnation of this
practice.</span><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918551324846520:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918551324846520:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918551324846520:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">For
me, the big discomfort is with the fact some folks claiming to be
Catholic apologists defend this practice. Between this and the
geocentrism controversy, I am seriously starting to question whether the
Church ought to license Catholic apologists as it does canonists and
theologians.</span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552534846399:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552534846399:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0" style="font-family: inherit;"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552534846399:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">Speaking
for myself, as an apologist, I'm not defending the practice. I am thus
far agnostic as to waterboarding, and definitely against torture.</span><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552534846399:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552534846399:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552534846399:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$8:0">I specifically said in the post at the top that I am not qualified to even give a definite opinion on the topic.</span><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552534846399:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552534846399:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552534846399:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$12:0">I
don't have a "license" but I do have Fr. John A. Hardon's strong
recommendation of my first book. And I have an article right in the
middle of our archdiocese newspaper, every two weeks (also an Imprimatur
from my own bishop).</span><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552534846399:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$13:0" /><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552534846399:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552534846399:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$16:0">I don't believe G. K. Chesterton had a "license." He didn't even have a college degree.</span><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552534846399:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$17:0" /><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552534846399:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$19:0" /><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552534846399:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$20:0">Fr. Brian Harrison is Australian, not American.</span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: #38761d;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552648179721:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552648179721:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552648179721:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">Fr Brian Harrison might as well be American.</span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552648179721:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552648179721:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552648179721:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552804846372:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552804846372:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552804846372:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">And I might as well be Canadian, since my dad was born there. It's neither here nor there.</span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: #38761d;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552648179721:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552648179721:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552648179721:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552804846372:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552804846372:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552804846372:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552928179693:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552928179693:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552928179693:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">No, you definitely are not Canadian.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552648179721:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552648179721:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552648179721:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552804846372:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552804846372:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552804846372:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552928179693:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552928179693:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918552928179693:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918553248179661:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918553248179661:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918553248179661:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">You wrote on your page: </span><span style="color: #38761d;"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918553248179661:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">"Sorry
Dave, but waterboarding is torture. Period. The only Catholics that I
have come across who doubt this or who argue otherwise, happen to be
both: 1) American, and 2) Republican."</span></span><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918553248179661:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918553248179661:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918553248179661:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$8:0">Since
Fr. Harrison is Australian, this statement is now shown to be false.
And your comeback is the rather weak: <span style="color: #38761d;">"Fr Brian Harrison might as well be
American."</span></span><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918553248179661:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918553248179661:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918553248179661:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$12:0">Well, you did say, the only ones <i>you</i> have come across.</span><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918553248179661:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$13:0" /><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918553248179661:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918553248179661:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$16:0">I don't see the need for this streak of nastiness and the anti-American motif and the low blow against apologists.</span></span></span></span></span></span> </span></span></span> </span></span></span><br />
<span style="color: #38761d; font-family: inherit;"><br /><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918554168179569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918554168179569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918554168179569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I recant nothing. I find it extremely creepy that some Catholics on your side of the border even think this is debatable.</span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918554168179569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918554168179569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918554168179569:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918554551512864:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918554551512864:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918554551512864:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">Great.
So the next step now is to define me as a lousy, disobedient Catholic
(perhaps a "deceiver" too, as one illustrious Catholic puts it), simply
because I am agnostic and still working through the issue?</span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: #38761d;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918555068179479:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918555068179479:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918555068179479:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">Not
really. If it is one of the many issues that I feel St Augustine would
deem non-essential, I just ignore it or agree to disagree. But for
something like this that I deem essential -- put another way, I rank
defence of waterboarding by Catholics on par with certain reactionary
trads who deny the Holocaust - I usually decide to go my seperate way.</span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918555784846074:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918555784846074:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918555784846074:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">As
for geocentrism, you know full well that [Robert] Sungenis became a pariah
within the apologetics community very quickly upon assuming that
position. So it is a stupid analysis to tar the whole community with
<i>that</i> error, in light of that.</span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: #38761d;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918556571512662:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918556571512662:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918556571512662:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">Dave, I think it might be time to go our separate ways for while...</span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918557654845887:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918557654845887:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0" style="font-family: inherit;"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918557654845887:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">You
do what you have to do, Pete. If you want to let the devil create more
division, that's your free choice. I think it's disgraceful. We've been
civil this entire thread, and here my friend, who says I helped him out
of the radical reactionary movement, and with whom I co-wrote a book
about Orthodoxy, wants to insult me and get away from me, simply because
I don't yet have an absolute opinion on waterboarding.</span><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918557654845887:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918557654845887:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918557654845887:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">That's the trend lately. So go jump on that fashionable bandwagon if you must.</span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: #38761d;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918557654845887:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918557654845887:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918557654845887:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918559281512391:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918559281512391:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918559281512391:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">It's
not just you, Dave. I have blocked about a third of the people in this
conversation - namely those who are hardcore apologists for
waterboarding. Not saying you are, but this issue is one that I find
deeply troubling whenever Catholics claiming to be faithful take up its
defence. I feel the same way about this as I do Traditionalists who deny
the Holocaust. I cannot stand to be near it as it horrifies me and robs
my soul of peace.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918560104845642:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918560104845642:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918560104845642:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918559951512324:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918559951512324:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I
find it deeply troubling that Catholics will defend the incineration of
100,000 Japanese civilians with an atomic bomb. You have a good friend
[Shawn McElhinney] who did so. Did you want to separate from <i>him</i>, too, as a result, and
find<i> that</i> creepy? I defended what I believe is the Church's position
(way back in 2005) and received some of the worst insults I've ever
gotten from anyone.</span></span> </span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918560104845642:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918560104845642:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918560104845642:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span style="color: #38761d;">Who?</span></span></span></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918560188178967:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918560188178967:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918560188178967:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"> </span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918560188178967:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918560188178967:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918560188178967:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">You know who it is. You certainly couldn't have missed that.</span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="color: #38761d;"><br /><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918560218178964:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918560218178964:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918560218178964:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">In fact, I have always defended Fr Feeney when it came to the atom bomb. </span></span></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918560714845581:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918560714845581:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918560714845581:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">For
those unfamiliar with the history of the Feeneyite controversy, Fr
Leonard Feeney was actually quite liberal for a Jesuit priest in his day
prior to the bomb being dropped on Japan. However, he went into a deep
depression after the bomb was dropped, contemplating the 100,000 killed.
When he emerged from this depression he became the Fr Feeney who took
the hardline stand on the doctrine "Outside the Church no salvation."</span></span></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918560874845565:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918560874845565:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918560874845565:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Remember I took an extended break from apologetics. Who defends the dropping to the atom bomb?</span></span></span> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918561674845485:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918561674845485:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918561674845485:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><br /><br />[I gave his initials]<br /><br /><span style="color: #38761d;">He certainly knows to keep the issue away from me.</span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918561768178809:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918561768178809:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".4.1:3:1:$comment918321381536181_918561768178809:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">I guess so.</span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">The combox at Ross's page devoted to lying about my position (posted today) is also as fascinating as it is pathetic (excerpts):</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$12:0"><b>Jacoba
Jaques</b> . . . It's like he did what he accuses
Protestants of doing. Manipulating the scriptures to fit his belief.</span></span></span> . . . </span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$18:0" style="font-family: inherit;"><b>Ross
Earl Hoffman</b> <span style="color: blue;">. . . its some of the worst Apologetics I have
ever seen. I actually scolded him in private for stuff like this...and
all hell broke lose</span> [sic]<span style="color: blue;"> ...</span></span></span></span></blockquote>
<blockquote>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$54:0" style="font-family: inherit;"><b>Jacoba Jaques</b> . . . I don't see why anyone would try to justify torture. The magistrate [sic] hasn't changed the teaching. . . .</span></span></span></blockquote>
<blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$54:0"></span></span></span><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$60:0"><b>Anna
Dawson </b>Jesus: "I was tortured to death, and you guys are supposed to
follow me, so obviously torture is fine. To the rack, haha!" This
shouldn't be that hard, you know? C'mon, folks. Love thy neighbor.</span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$66:0" style="font-family: inherit;"><b>Ross
Earl Hoffman</b> <span style="color: blue;">. . . it's one thing to struggle with trying to
figure out exactly what the Church's stand on torture is but to actually
go so far as to try to twist scripture to put Jesus in line with
torture is probably some of the poorest apologetics I've ever seen in my
life! I'm really glad Torquemada Tequila actually stepped in and made a
public statement like this and I know the man, he's not trying to hurt
Dave or anybody else it's pretty obvious from his post that he wrestled
with this but something this big does not need to be stinking up
Facebook and Catholics like the carcasse</span> [sic] <span style="color: blue;">of some dead animal just slowly
rotting in our backyard....</span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$66:0" style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$66:0"><b>Ross
Earl Hoffman</b> [citing Pete Vere] </span></span></span> ". . . apologetics for torture is not Catholicism. . . . Apologetics is not an alternative magisterium of the Church."</span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$72:0" style="font-family: inherit;"><b>John Breslin </b>Dave erred badly on this one, and I hope he retracts it. . . . Instead of hiding behind a pretense of ambiguity (or 'nuance' as some of them are calling it), Catholics in favor of waterboarding (or 'agnostic' about it) need to get honest and come out and say they disagree with the Church, or that they simply cannot live up to Church teaching on this point.</span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$72:0"><br /></span></span></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$66:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".19s.$mid=11422292365954=203a7204f96f9c58777.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$66:0"><b>Ross
Earl Hoffman</b> <span style="color: blue;">. . . This is how desperate these people are to justify torture.</span><b><br /><br />William Casidy </b>This is what happens when one loses sight of the distinction between one's partisan political views and the teaching of the Church, to which those views are to be subjected, and in light of which they are to be modified. The Magisterium isn't the doctrinal arm of the RNC; and Catholic doctrine doesn't exist for the purpose of being twisted to provide a veneer of righteousness for one's side in a debate on politics.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">I happen to be aware of extreme hypocrisy on Ross's part as well, because I know what he wrote to me in private PMs on Facebook (i.e., before he blocked me for the fifth and last time). Since he insists on attacking me and lying about me in public, for the express purpose of harming my reputation and apostolate, I will now reveal some of those (his word in <span style="color: blue;">blue<span style="color: black;">; mine in regular black; enlarged-font emphases are my own</span></span>). I think my readers will find them extremely interesting. Note that Ross paid for my way to go on a wonderful trip to Israel last October (and notice what he and I said about that):</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><b>December 20, 2014</b> </span></div>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419125460041=2bb03a54e7411678232.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419125460041=2bb03a54e7411678232.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419125460041=2bb03a54e7411678232.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;">You guys actually deserve to get serious heat from Catholics like me for making us look like total morons!</span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419125460041=2bb03a54e7411678232.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419125460041=2bb03a54e7411678232.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419125460041=2bb03a54e7411678232.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;"><b>December 21, 2014 </b></span></span></span></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419125460041=2bb03a54e7411678232.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419125460041=2bb03a54e7411678232.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419125460041=2bb03a54e7411678232.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;"><b> </b>[the day my mother died: at about 9:40 AM ET. Ross knew we were going through a living hell -- the worst month in my entire life -- with my mother dying, and said he got his group to pray for her and I thanked him for that. Yet he persisted with his nonsense . . . ]</span></span></span></div>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419125460041=2bb03a54e7411678232.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419125460041=2bb03a54e7411678232.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419125460041=2bb03a54e7411678232.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216265736=2f301e6edff17870c40.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216265736=2f301e6edff17870c40.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216265736=2f301e6edff17870c40.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">I
also want to make sure you understand I don't want your Holy Land trip
and what we did there be affected in any way so <span style="font-size: large;">I don't really want to
talk about this torture thing anymore</span> and I apologize for even bringing
it up because I don't want your trip ruined on my account. </span></span></span></span></span></span><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419125460041=2bb03a54e7411678232.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419125460041=2bb03a54e7411678232.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419125460041=2bb03a54e7411678232.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216265736=2f301e6edff17870c40.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216265736=2f301e6edff17870c40.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216265736=2f301e6edff17870c40.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216294017=279be30f72641796025.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216294017=279be30f72641796025.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216294017=279be30f72641796025.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">So I apologize for being a little snotty and I hope you forgive me and I'd like to be friends with you again.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419125460041=2bb03a54e7411678232.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419125460041=2bb03a54e7411678232.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419125460041=2bb03a54e7411678232.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216265736=2f301e6edff17870c40.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216265736=2f301e6edff17870c40.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216265736=2f301e6edff17870c40.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216294017=279be30f72641796025.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216294017=279be30f72641796025.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216294017=279be30f72641796025.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216414670=204c991d6b1745af904.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216414670=204c991d6b1745af904.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216414670=204c991d6b1745af904.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Fair enough. You're forgiven.</span></span></span> </span></span></span></span></span></span> </span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216577018=23c00057cff6ee66716.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216577018=23c00057cff6ee66716.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216577018=23c00057cff6ee66716.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Like I said my biggest concern is I don't want your Holy Land trip ruined in any way</span></span></span>. <span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216596842=2ea53b5c082a66ae541.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216596842=2ea53b5c082a66ae541.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216596842=2ea53b5c082a66ae541.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">My attitude is real simple and I was quite upset at myself for potentially ruining your trip in any way. </span></span></span><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216619894=2885b2bd79cfe488c29.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216619894=2885b2bd79cfe488c29.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216619894=2885b2bd79cfe488c29.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">I
know that trip meant a lot to you and the last thing I want to do is be
the one who affects it in a negative way so I'm kind of pissed off at
myself for that reason alone.</span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216619894=2885b2bd79cfe488c29.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216619894=2885b2bd79cfe488c29.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216619894=2885b2bd79cfe488c29.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216670749=2a81be4b870c7ff9758.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216670749=2a81be4b870c7ff9758.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216670749=2a81be4b870c7ff9758.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">The trip will never be ruined and I'll be eternally grateful to you for it. </span></span></span></span></span></span><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216619894=2885b2bd79cfe488c29.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216619894=2885b2bd79cfe488c29.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216619894=2885b2bd79cfe488c29.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216670749=2a81be4b870c7ff9758.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216670749=2a81be4b870c7ff9758.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216670749=2a81be4b870c7ff9758.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216670749=2a81be4b870c7ff9758.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216670749=2a81be4b870c7ff9758.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216670749=2a81be4b870c7ff9758.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">But
a few more messages like I got (if they are in public) and it could do
great damage to my reputation. And of course the devil loves division.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216619894=2885b2bd79cfe488c29.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216619894=2885b2bd79cfe488c29.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216619894=2885b2bd79cfe488c29.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216670749=2a81be4b870c7ff9758.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216670749=2a81be4b870c7ff9758.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216670749=2a81be4b870c7ff9758.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216670749=2a81be4b870c7ff9758.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216670749=2a81be4b870c7ff9758.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216670749=2a81be4b870c7ff9758.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216698744=2aea0025357603ead99.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216698744=2aea0025357603ead99.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216698744=2aea0025357603ead99.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Yes I know that and I agree with that nobody is out to destroy your reputation that's for sure.</span></span></span> </span></span></span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;"><br /><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216678663=28824c08b0f6e202510.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216678663=28824c08b0f6e202510.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216678663=28824c08b0f6e202510.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">We
both go on what could be a once in a lifetime trip and <span style="font-size: large;">here I am
screwing up things over something as stupid as torture</span> even though it's
an important subject <span style="font-size: large;">it still shouldn't affect our friendship</span></span></span></span>.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="color: blue;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216876593=2d73d33af420130b295.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216876593=2d73d33af420130b295.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419216876593=2d73d33af420130b295.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Well
it's much easier to reconcile with you simply because we spent some
time together and I got to know your character and you're one heck of a
nice guy so goodness gracious I know you don't need a bunch of grief
from another Catholic like me.</span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419217036274=279c942771578541604.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419217036274=279c942771578541604.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419217036274=279c942771578541604.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">But I'm glad you really enjoyed the trip . . . </span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419217036274=279c942771578541604.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419217036274=279c942771578541604.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419217036274=279c942771578541604.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419220676000=2f9f60fa15c435ce052.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419220676000=2f9f60fa15c435ce052.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419220676000=2f9f60fa15c435ce052.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">I didn't want to bring your trip down ....that is why I contacted you.</span></span></span> </span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419217036274=279c942771578541604.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419217036274=279c942771578541604.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419217036274=279c942771578541604.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><br /></span></span></span>
</span><br />
<div style="text-align: center;">
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419125460041=2bb03a54e7411678232.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419125460041=2bb03a54e7411678232.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419125460041=2bb03a54e7411678232.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;"><b>December 22, 2014 </b></span></span></span></div>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419125460041=2bb03a54e7411678232.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419125460041=2bb03a54e7411678232.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419125460041=2bb03a54e7411678232.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><b><br /></b></span></span></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285251136=2741080dee82e21ea64.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285251136=2741080dee82e21ea64.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285251136=2741080dee82e21ea64.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span style="color: blue;">Dave can I ask you a question my friend?</span><br /><br />Sure.<span style="color: blue;"> </span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285251136=2741080dee82e21ea64.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285251136=2741080dee82e21ea64.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285251136=2741080dee82e21ea64.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span style="color: blue;">What happened to your great review on Roaming Romans?</span></span></span></span><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285363765=27c9c154cf6715bbf67.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285363765=27c9c154cf6715bbf67.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285363765=27c9c154cf6715bbf67.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"> </span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285363765=27c9c154cf6715bbf67.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285363765=27c9c154cf6715bbf67.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285363765=27c9c154cf6715bbf67.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">It
was no longer true, after the disgrace of the torture discussion, so I
had to take it down. I couldn't recommend Roaming Romans for positive,
nonsense-free discussion after that. </span></span></span><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285363765=27c9c154cf6715bbf67.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285363765=27c9c154cf6715bbf67.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285363765=27c9c154cf6715bbf67.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">I'm not making a public fuss, like you did, or attacking you in public. I simply silently removed what I no longer think is true.</span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285392458=2e3112159e323161458.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285392458=2e3112159e323161458.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285392458=2e3112159e323161458.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">So you're actually telling me that the pilgrimage that I took you on became a disgrace for you after all. </span></span></span><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285413864=243b6c36a1304504d91.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285413864=243b6c36a1304504d91.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285413864=243b6c36a1304504d91.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Ok
Dave here I take you and your wife on a pilgrimage to the Holy Land for
absolutely free and you do this to me you have to be kidding me.</span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285413864=243b6c36a1304504d91.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285413864=243b6c36a1304504d91.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285413864=243b6c36a1304504d91.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">[at this point he blocked me before I could even answer] </span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285413864=243b6c36a1304504d91.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285413864=243b6c36a1304504d91.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285413864=243b6c36a1304504d91.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><br /></span></span></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285419218=225002055369c76cd03.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285419218=225002055369c76cd03.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285419218=225002055369c76cd03.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">No. Your discussion / witch hunt on torture was a disgrace; has nothing to do with the pilgrimage.</span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285419218=225002055369c76cd03.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285419218=225002055369c76cd03.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285419218=225002055369c76cd03.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">[he later unblocked me. This has been a process that has been ongoing; with a total of five or six blocks, then unblocking me again. Remember that the following discussion took place on <i>the day after my mother died</i>.] </span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285419218=225002055369c76cd03.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285419218=225002055369c76cd03.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285419218=225002055369c76cd03.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299368902=2befb456b05ad7ad329.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299368902=2befb456b05ad7ad329.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299368902=2befb456b05ad7ad329.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">So
Dave the only torture witch hunt that's really going on is Catholics
rejecting the clear teaching on the Church and going after us for
defending the clear Teaching! </span></span></span></span></span></span><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285419218=225002055369c76cd03.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285419218=225002055369c76cd03.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285419218=225002055369c76cd03.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299368902=2befb456b05ad7ad329.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299368902=2befb456b05ad7ad329.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299368902=2befb456b05ad7ad329.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299368902=2befb456b05ad7ad329.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299368902=2befb456b05ad7ad329.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299368902=2befb456b05ad7ad329.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">I'm
certainly not alone in my camp by any means but <span style="font-size: large;">it's pretty obvious not
a lot is being accomplished so as you can see I'm hoping that we can
all just move on from this I think that's the best thing to do! </span>Pax</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285419218=225002055369c76cd03.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285419218=225002055369c76cd03.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285419218=225002055369c76cd03.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299368902=2befb456b05ad7ad329.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299368902=2befb456b05ad7ad329.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299368902=2befb456b05ad7ad329.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299368902=2befb456b05ad7ad329.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299368902=2befb456b05ad7ad329.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299368902=2befb456b05ad7ad329.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299385869=2b62880eb9efff3ca74.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299385869=2b62880eb9efff3ca74.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299385869=2b62880eb9efff3ca74.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">So now I am unblocked again, for the fourth time, is it?</span></span></span> </span></span></span></span></span></span> </span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285419218=225002055369c76cd03.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285419218=225002055369c76cd03.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419285419218=225002055369c76cd03.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><br /></span></span></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299534666=27650c4be85f49bd771.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299534666=27650c4be85f49bd771.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299534666=27650c4be85f49bd771.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Well
Dave I don't have a problem being persecuted by Catholics for a torture
witch hunt and that's what's going on and I can overlook the fact many
of you have twisted this around on me but my point is<span style="font-size: large;"> I think it's time
to move on that's why I contacted you one last time!</span> Apparently Dave you
weren't interested in honoring that apology I had yesterday otherwise
you wouldn't have removed that review of yours and by the way I have
absolutely no interest in your review I don't need it it was just
underhanded in my view simply after our talk yesterday.</span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="color: blue; font-family: inherit;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299534666=27650c4be85f49bd771.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299534666=27650c4be85f49bd771.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299534666=27650c4be85f49bd771.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"> </span></span></span><br /><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299577481=2f3f31275c8aa44ee81.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299577481=2f3f31275c8aa44ee81.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299577481=2f3f31275c8aa44ee81.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Unfortunately
Dave there seems to be <span style="font-size: large;">a real problem with Catholics NOT wanting to
move on from an issue</span> that's obviously a stalemate that's what I thought
we accomplished with our apology but obviously I was wrong.</span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299577481=2f3f31275c8aa44ee81.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299577481=2f3f31275c8aa44ee81.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299577481=2f3f31275c8aa44ee81.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">You have no business pontificating to anyone. You've been a Catholic for only, what, six years? You're not the magisterium.<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$4:0"> </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299577481=2f3f31275c8aa44ee81.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299577481=2f3f31275c8aa44ee81.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299577481=2f3f31275c8aa44ee81.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$4:0" style="font-family: inherit;">I
thought the idea of Roaming Romans was to get away from apologetics and
debate because you were burned out and fit to be tied. Now you're going
right back to that endeavor and dissing people like Toni Aceto and
Margie [Prox Sindelar], telling them they are lousy Catholics? </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299577481=2f3f31275c8aa44ee81.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299577481=2f3f31275c8aa44ee81.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299577481=2f3f31275c8aa44ee81.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$8:0">You
don't do very well at debate. It's a skilled and learned art. It takes
many years to learn and do properly. I have put in those years (33 and
running). You don't have the skill. This is why it has been a fiasco, as
you are now entering back into that arena. And it'll only get worse.
Mark my words. . . . </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$12:0"> </span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$12:0">This is not good, Ross. You need to look at yourself, not everyone else.</span><br data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$13:0" /><br data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$16:0">You're
not resolving anything. A real apology discusses and resolves the
issue, rather than simply mouthing words. The issue is your attacking many
people personally, including me, on stupid, wrongheaded grounds.</span></span></span><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$20:0"> </span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$20:0" style="font-family: inherit;">If
Jimmy Akin or me, with our combined 45 years or so of published
apologetics, disagrees with you, you send us packing [he blocked Jimmy Akin, too], with insults,
thinking absurdly that you are an expert on fine points of Catholic
moral theology.</span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0" style="font-family: inherit;"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$24:0">Not
only that, you continued the insults and stupidity literally when my
mother was dying (and she did die yesterday). Makes no difference to
you. You continue right on. You attacked Margie after her house burnt.
So you gave $500 to try to make up for your abuse of her? That won't do.
You can't "buy" every interpersonal problem away. </span><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$26:0">You think everyone is at fault here except yourself.</span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$30:0" style="font-family: inherit;">You
went off in a huff without hearing me out, blocking me for the third
time. All I said was that I can't recommend Roaming Romans because you
claim it is a place for "positive Catholicism" and it is <i>not </i>that
anymore, given the way you have been behaving. I could even have written
another review with different words. I still have a "like" up for the
page, after all. [I removed it only a few days ago: about a month after I wrote this]</span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299577481=2f3f31275c8aa44ee81.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299577481=2f3f31275c8aa44ee81.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419299577481=2f3f31275c8aa44ee81.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$34:0">But
for you everything is black and white. I took down a review in good
conscience, so now I am Attila the Hun and I'm blocked in a one-second
decision (and here I am back again!). </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$42:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$34:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$38:0">We
disagreed on that, so now you pretend that I think the trip stunk (when
in fact I just said that had nothing to do with that and that I am
eternally grateful for it, and that it was fabulous. You were still
acting normally then). This is how your "logic" works, I guess.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$46:0" style="font-family: inherit;">You
decided to attack and disparage me and many others publicly. . . . You are making the devil dance with glee with
all this absurd, pathetic infighting. He loves it, so do the atheists
and Protestants, who mock us when we claim that the Church offers unity
that they don't have.</span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$46:0" style="font-family: inherit;">You're
the one sitting there judging people and their Catholicism and the
states of their soul. You're doing exactly what you have said you
despised when the radical Catholic reactionaries do it or when Michael
Voris starts attacking folks. This is rank hypocrisy.</span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$50:0" style="font-family: inherit;">You
continue to lie about and distort what I and others have said. I <i>do <b>not </b>defend torture</i>. I
think it is intrinsically evil, just as the Church says. So do Jimmy
Akin and Fr. Harrison. The disagreement is whether all interrogation is
torture. Toni noted this, so did Margie, so did I. If you say it all is
torture, down to nuns slapping wrists, then you will have to argue with
St. Thomas Aquinas and many others in Church history who upheld some
forms of coercion.</span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$50:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$54:0" style="font-family: inherit;">Your
tactics with those who disagree with you on anything don't work with
me. I don't take kindly to you attacking me and savaging my character,
talking about topics that are way over your head, with the living hell I
have been through in the last six weeks: some of the worst days of my
entire life. </span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$50:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$54:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$58:0" style="font-family: inherit;">If
you want to sit there in your forum and attack others and lose friends
left and right, you do that Ross, but it won't make you happy or
fulfilled, or an example of your vaunted "positive Catholicism."<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$62:0"> </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$50:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$54:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$58:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$62:0" style="font-family: inherit;">We
don't attack others on my page. We get along. We have constructive
discussions. Many Protestants regularly visit; also many
"traditionalists." I haven't been losing friends, or tossing them
overboard. We had a perfectly reasonable discussion about the torture
issue. You were the only one who didn't know how to discuss it properly,
with your repeated questions and stupefied non-comprehension of answers
given to them (the anti-Catholics and RadCathRs use those same tactics
all the time). You're better than that.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$50:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$54:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$58:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301535847=269435d6616a2df6958.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$62:0"> </span></span></span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span></span></span></span><span style="color: blue;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301617560=29095e90d88cb8a7125.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301617560=29095e90d88cb8a7125.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301617560=29095e90d88cb8a7125.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"> </span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="color: blue;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301617560=29095e90d88cb8a7125.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301617560=29095e90d88cb8a7125.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301617560=29095e90d88cb8a7125.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">That's
fine my friend but I'll stick with the Church and Jesus . . . you can do whatever you want you guys
are bound in pride! All of you owe me an apology but I'll tell you
what.... I'm not going to wait for it but I will say this I forgive you
Dave and so does Jesus!</span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301738588=27cebcd1b181bce2799.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301738588=27cebcd1b181bce2799.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301738588=27cebcd1b181bce2799.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">Right;
anything but face the issues and their root causes: why you keep
getting into conflicts, dissing and offending people, savaging "friends"
even when they are intensely suffering. It's always our fault. You have
the Church and Jesus and we are wicked evil morons . . .</span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301738588=27cebcd1b181bce2799.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301738588=27cebcd1b181bce2799.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301738588=27cebcd1b181bce2799.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301778734=20a5ec791b8c38c9471.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301778734=20a5ec791b8c38c9471.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301778734=20a5ec791b8c38c9471.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">Sorry
Dave if you can't see the truth . . . then
there's nothing I can do for you like I said you're steeped in pride.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301738588=27cebcd1b181bce2799.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301738588=27cebcd1b181bce2799.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301738588=27cebcd1b181bce2799.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301796172=209a44de7a8d5f93945.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301796172=209a44de7a8d5f93945.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301796172=209a44de7a8d5f93945.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">Right. God bless you Ross.</span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301738588=27cebcd1b181bce2799.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301738588=27cebcd1b181bce2799.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301738588=27cebcd1b181bce2799.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301796172=209a44de7a8d5f93945.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301796172=209a44de7a8d5f93945.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301796172=209a44de7a8d5f93945.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301865688=288afc0232e53e31f06.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301865688=288afc0232e53e31f06.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301865688=288afc0232e53e31f06.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">But
thank God Dave, that the persecution that I'm dealing with is actually
bearing some amazing fruit you can keep everybody deceived if you want
Dave but we all know the truth Jesus isn't a torturer, now Dave if I
was you I would just move on, that's all I'm asking!</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419302199624=2462fa652252a157e86.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419302199624=2462fa652252a157e86.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419302199624=2462fa652252a157e86.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301738588=27cebcd1b181bce2799.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301796172=209a44de7a8d5f93945.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301796172=209a44de7a8d5f93945.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301796172=209a44de7a8d5f93945.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301865688=288afc0232e53e31f06.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301865688=288afc0232e53e31f06.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419301865688=288afc0232e53e31f06.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span style="color: black;">[I <i>did</i> "move on," on 6 January 2015, with my Facebook post, <a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/925009260867393">Sick and Tired of Controversy</a>. But here we are twenty days later because Ross: who claimed a month ago that he wanted to stop discussing the issue, <i>still</i> is (along with Pete Vere and no doubt, Mark Shea, making it front and center on his pages, and now attacking and lying about me anew).]</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span> </span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419302199624=2462fa652252a157e86.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419302199624=2462fa652252a157e86.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419302199624=2462fa652252a157e86.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">You can block me again if you like for the 4th or 5th time. Feel free.</span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419302199624=2462fa652252a157e86.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419302199624=2462fa652252a157e86.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419302199624=2462fa652252a157e86.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419125460041=2bb03a54e7411678232.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419125460041=2bb03a54e7411678232.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419125460041=2bb03a54e7411678232.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;"><b>December 24, 2014 </b></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419444427102=263f14e895b495b0501.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419444427102=263f14e895b495b0501.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419444427102=263f14e895b495b0501.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">Dave
I'm not going to block you again but there's a growing number of
Catholics that are just going to avoid Pro torture Catholics it's really
that simple the Church has clearly defined torture and how we should
deal with it! Unfortunately you have decided to contest- the Church's
clear teaching so in essence your pro torture! It's nothing personal!
Mark Shea has it right! Guys like you are simply weakening the Church's
absolute stand on torture!</span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">I'm not pro-torture in the first place. It doesn't help you or anyone else to keep lying about my position. Get it right.</span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$4:0" style="font-family: inherit;">Whoever wants to avoid me is welcome to do so. God bless 'em. It's all part of apologetics.</span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445621410=2cacccc7a6b0287e650.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445621410=2cacccc7a6b0287e650.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445621410=2cacccc7a6b0287e650.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">If I am so wicked and incorrigible, hit that block button and be done with me forever, Ross.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445621410=2cacccc7a6b0287e650.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445621410=2cacccc7a6b0287e650.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445621410=2cacccc7a6b0287e650.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419446398411=2536b7c2fe1f2200d86.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419446398411=2536b7c2fe1f2200d86.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419446398411=2536b7c2fe1f2200d86.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">The
"logic" you are using here is like the anti-Catholic who says to us,
"you are guilty of gross idolatry because you actually worship bread at
every Mass." We point out that this is fundamentally wrongheaded: that
we are not doing that at all. Whether transubstantiation is true or not, <i>we</i> believe that we are worshiping Jesus, not mere bread (since we
believe the bread is no longer present after consecration). Therefore,
since idolatry is a matter of the heart, it's not possible to accuse us
of it in that instance.<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419446398411=2536b7c2fe1f2200d86.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419446398411=2536b7c2fe1f2200d86.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419446398411=2536b7c2fe1f2200d86.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$4:0"> </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$4:0" style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445621410=2cacccc7a6b0287e650.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445621410=2cacccc7a6b0287e650.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445621410=2cacccc7a6b0287e650.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419446398411=2536b7c2fe1f2200d86.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419446398411=2536b7c2fe1f2200d86.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419446398411=2536b7c2fe1f2200d86.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419446398411=2536b7c2fe1f2200d86.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419446398411=2536b7c2fe1f2200d86.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419446398411=2536b7c2fe1f2200d86.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">That's
what you're doing. We say, "we're not in favor of torture at all, and
believe that some forms of interrogation are not torture." This isn't
good enough for you and you define what we think and do in your terms,
anyway, just as anti-Catholics do with the Eucharist.</span></span></span></span></span></span> </span></span></span> </span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419446398411=2536b7c2fe1f2200d86.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419446398411=2536b7c2fe1f2200d86.2:0.0.0.0.0.0" style="font-family: inherit;">Even
if we turn out to be wrong, we were not <i>advocating</i> "torture," because
we don't believe that what we advocate is that at all.<span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419446398411=2536b7c2fe1f2200d86.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$8:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419468539105=2cba1c65dd522ac3738.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419468539105=2cba1c65dd522ac3738.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419468539105=2cba1c65dd522ac3738.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"> </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419445322967=2f67ac164c729f95947.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$4:0" style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419446398411=2536b7c2fe1f2200d86.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419446398411=2536b7c2fe1f2200d86.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419446398411=2536b7c2fe1f2200d86.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$8:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419468539105=2cba1c65dd522ac3738.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419468539105=2cba1c65dd522ac3738.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419468539105=2cba1c65dd522ac3738.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Dave!
No actually my friend I'm simply following Church teaching that torture
is an intrinsic evil. And it can't be justified for any reason; even if
our government thinks waterboarding a detainee would save all of North
America it still can't be done because it's an intrinsic evil according
to the Catholic Church this is a totally black and white issue!</span></span></span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419468539105=2cba1c65dd522ac3738.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419468539105=2cba1c65dd522ac3738.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419468539105=2cba1c65dd522ac3738.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$4:0" style="font-family: inherit;">The
only reason you're going to resist this Dave is pride because now you
would have to admit you were wrong to Ross we both know that! Merry
Christmas.</span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419469150563=23181345a9525930d83.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419469150563=23181345a9525930d83.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419469150563=23181345a9525930d83.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">Dave
all you've done is allow every Catholic that I know to continue to
believe they can water board or do whatever they want because the Church
is unclear on Torture which is an intrinsic evil that can't be
justified in any way it's astonishing to me that you don't see that
especially as serious as a Catholic as you are!</span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419472482408=25697f80486d80be501.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419472482408=25697f80486d80be501.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419472482408=25697f80486d80be501.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">Yes, torture is intrinsically wrong. ZZzzzz (-_-) Next question?</span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419472482408=25697f80486d80be501.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419472482408=25697f80486d80be501.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419472482408=25697f80486d80be501.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419475426843=291c0200fd849a06434.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419475426843=291c0200fd849a06434.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419475426843=291c0200fd849a06434.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">I'm
sorry Dave but I'm not going to really dialogue about this subject with
somebody who's not going to take it seriously I think this is a perfect
opportunity to just move on! Like I said if I were you I would take a
serious look at what Mark Shea is stating! . . . At this point Dave considering we're
not getting anywhere I simply want to look back on a wonderful trip and a
great book that you wrote I'm passing copies out to people in my
parish, and we can just go our separate ways and live happily ever
after!</span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419472482408=25697f80486d80be501.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419472482408=25697f80486d80be501.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419472482408=25697f80486d80be501.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419475565517=2d5c6d0d7805d819029.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419475565517=2d5c6d0d7805d819029.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419475565517=2d5c6d0d7805d819029.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">Hopefully
one of these days you'll realize the difference between a statement
like torture is intrinsically wrong and that's where you drop it and
what the Church is really stating!</span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419472482408=25697f80486d80be501.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419472482408=25697f80486d80be501.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419472482408=25697f80486d80be501.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419475627905=2203a8ae5a32d3dae35.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419475627905=2203a8ae5a32d3dae35.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419475627905=2203a8ae5a32d3dae35.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="font-family: inherit;">But
I highly doubt that's going to happen anytime soon Dave but maybe after
some serious prayer who knows you might come around God bless and Merry
Christmas!</span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419472482408=25697f80486d80be501.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419472482408=25697f80486d80be501.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419472482408=25697f80486d80be501.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419475627905=2203a8ae5a32d3dae35.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419475627905=2203a8ae5a32d3dae35.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419475627905=2203a8ae5a32d3dae35.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419478230343=25dbb0211a8ed822857.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419478230343=25dbb0211a8ed822857.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419478230343=25dbb0211a8ed822857.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$4:0" style="font-family: inherit;">And
Dave just watch; all my page is going to do, is grow and meet the needs
of excited Catholics who want to see pilgrimage sites all over the
world! The best part of all of this I got a bunch of pro torture
Catholics out of my life!</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419472482408=25697f80486d80be501.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419472482408=25697f80486d80be501.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419472482408=25697f80486d80be501.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419475627905=2203a8ae5a32d3dae35.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419475627905=2203a8ae5a32d3dae35.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419475627905=2203a8ae5a32d3dae35.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span class="_5yl5" data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419478230343=25dbb0211a8ed822857.2:0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419478230343=25dbb0211a8ed822857.2:0.0.0.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".a.$mid=11419478230343=25dbb0211a8ed822857.2:0.0.0.0.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">The last message I received from Ross came in an e-mail of 5 January 2014. Before that time I had commented on his site and he deleted my words and blocked me for the final time. Since then I posted again on the <i>Roaming Romans</i> Facebook page. Those comments were removed, too. Here is his last letter (with my present bracketed interjections):</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><span style="color: blue;"><span style="font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-size: small;"> </span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span style="font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: small;">Dave my old friend. I have no idea why you seem so bitter against
Ross? Things are absolutely LOVELY in Boise. My wonderful Deacon Bill Burn's
just completely demolished you in his blog. <span style="color: black;">[I cross-posted that on Facebook] </span>Here you are posting scripture
TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT on your wall, trying to claim Jesus is advocating
Torture, and you have missed the mark by a million miles. Your <span style="color: black;">[sic] </span>the paid
apologist not me! LOL.</span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span style="font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: small;">I would love to see you guys send my Bishop stuff I have said on
facebook<span style="color: black;"> [great, then you'll have no objection to my posting all of <i>this</i>]</span> (As if that is going to matter, I am not representing the Church
officially <span style="color: black;">[nor am I]</span>, I am not a paid Apologist, this would be a perfect opportunity to
show my Bishop YOUR blogs and what your<span style="color: black;"> [sic] </span>posting on your wall, and we can get
your Bishop involved <span style="color: black;">[feel free!]</span>. I'm not the one directly contradicting the Catholic
Church.)</span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span style="font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: small;">As for my friends. My friend count is just under 5000. Of course I
am picking up REALLY strong Catholics from Mark Shea's friend pool, that
aren't practicing this bizarre Caffeteria <span style="color: black;">[sic]</span> Catholicism that is so popular these
days.</span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span style="font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: small;">Any way my friend. God bless</span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span style="font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: small;">And I am sure strong Catholics like Nicole <span style="color: black;">[DeMille]</span> will keep you blocked, simply
because your <span style="color: black;">[sic] </span>a near occasion for sin. And so will I.</span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: blue;"><span style="font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: small;">Pax Ross </span></span></span><br />
<div style="color: black; font-size: 10pt;">
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: blue;"><span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: x-small;">
</span></span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="color: black; font-size: x-small;"></span><br /></span>
<div>
</div>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="color: black; font-size: x-small;">
</span>
</span><br />
<div>
<span style="color: black; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: small;"><b>* * * * *</b></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: black; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: small;">See also the <a href="https://www.facebook.com/dave.armstrong.798/posts/935796573121995">discussion about this article on my Facebook page</a>, and a number of important clarifying statements and semi-"new" arguments that I've made <i>in the combox for this post</i>, which carefully explain many aspects of my position that have been lost in the chaos and condemnations of the fanatical "torture 24-7" crowd, who aren't interested in calm, rational, civil discussion. <b><br /></b></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="color: black; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-size: small;"><b>UPDATE (1-27-15) </b></span></span><span style="color: black; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"> </span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="color: black; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">The
attack piece at <i>Roaming Romans</i>, cited above (cross-posting Pete Vere's remarks): put up by Ross Earl
Hoffman, has been removed: as usual, minus any retraction or apology.</span></span></span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: small;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">Even the <i>New York Times</i> will retract </span></span><span data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">a
public error or calumny: albeit on page 27E or something. But Ross feels that he can publicly trash a Catholic apologist and then remove the
garbage without a word, as if it never existed.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0" style="font-family: inherit;"><span data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$12:0">True repentance brings about: </span><br data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$13:0" /><br data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><span data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$16:0">1) apologies, </span><br data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$17:0" /><br data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$19:0" /><span data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$20:0">2) retractions of public calumnies, </span><br data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$21:0" /><br data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$23:0" /><span data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$24:0">3) reform of behavior, and </span><br data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$25:0" /><br data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$27:0" /><span data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$28:0">4) restitution: trying to repair the damage already done to someone's reputation by public slander and defamation.</span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936188926416093:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936188926416093:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0" style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936188926416093:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Pete Vere has also removed his attack post: also minus retraction or apology. </span><span data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936188926416093:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">If
he retracts and/or apologizes, I'll strongly consider modifying this
response / paper. If not, it stays up with this note that he has removed it.</span><br data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936188926416093:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936188926416093:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936188926416093:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$8:0">This
has been my constant policy for 18 years online. If people exhibit true
repentance (which necessarily includes retraction and apology for
calumny), I am more than happy to remove responses to what is no longer
applicable.</span><br data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936188926416093:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936188926416093:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936188926416093:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$12:0">Otherwise,
it isn't certain whether removal was merely for expedience' sake (i.e.,
it "backfired" and so was removed for damage control purposes). </span><span data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936188926416093:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$16:0">I don't want to be cynical, but these are, sadly, too often realities online. Apologies for the thing that was wrong exhibit and are the observable fruit of a true change of heart.</span></span><span data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936188926416093:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$20:0"><span style="font-size: small;">The
attacks were made in public and possibly seen by many hundreds of
people. Retractions and apologies also need to be made equally publicly and with equal vigor and passion.<br /><br />It's hard to eat humble pie, but these are the rules God made for normal relations. He knew what He was doing, in inspiring the Bible.</span></span></span></span><br />
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<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="color: black; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-size: small;"><b>UPDATE (1-30-15) </b></span></span><span style="color: black; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="color: black; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><br /></span></span></span></span></span></span>
<span style="color: black; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".5t.1:3:1:$comment935796573121995_936131646421821:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Pete Vere has apologized for and retracted his comparison of me with geocentrists (and I thank him and accepted that). He flatly refused to retract the comparison of my moral views with Holocaust deniers, after I cited his words above back to him. In so doing he has decided to ruin a friendship of 17 years' standing. His choice, not mine. I tried to achieve reconciliation. No friendship can endure one regarding the other as like a Nazi or those who rationalize their extreme wickedness.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
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<span style="color: black; font-family: inherit; font-size: x-small;">***** </span><br />
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Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.com31