tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post8769468150436238134..comments2023-10-05T08:25:13.232-04:00Comments on Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: Reformed Expert on Islam, Sam Shamoun Sez the Catholic Church Murdered "An Estimated 50-68 Million People". My Reply Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-25553772281750821802015-06-23T01:50:57.163-04:002015-06-23T01:50:57.163-04:00Yahya,
You were also spotted at the Badmanna blog...Yahya,<br /><br />You were also spotted at the Badmanna blog recently. I suggest you do not resort to taqqiya techniques to sow seeds of division between Catholic and Protestants. We are very capable of sorting out our theological differences on our own. We do not need a mohammedan, of all people, to help us do that. Go work out your own issues with the Shias, Quranis, Salafis, Ismailis, Ahmadiyyas, Deobandis and heaven knows what perverted variations....Devotee of Christhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11138842048870482619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-1383609135983249992015-06-22T21:03:35.561-04:002015-06-22T21:03:35.561-04:00Shamoun is lazy and slapdash even when talking abo...Shamoun is lazy and slapdash even when talking about Islam so I'm not surprised he got caught peddling nonsense about Catholocism.<br /><br />Here's some of Shamoun's nonsense when talking about Islam:<br /><br />http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Sam%20ShamounYahya Snowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18373097645466995642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-11434121673508185992014-04-26T19:11:33.344-04:002014-04-26T19:11:33.344-04:00Thanks for your kind words, Christophe.
The mater...Thanks for your kind words, Christophe.<br /><br />The material is all there for ya on my blog: well-organized and accessible: 2,500+ papers, + 43 books. I don't really have time to do e-mail exchanges. Sorry!<br /><br />I have links to many articles on the scandal here:<br /><br />http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2008/04/links-to-articles-concerning-catholic.html <br /><br />Weigel has a great article on it:<br /><br />http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0153.htm<br /><br /><br />Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-15795502094357014482014-04-26T18:40:07.632-04:002014-04-26T18:40:07.632-04:00HI there Dave,
I have to say that I am a big fan....HI there Dave,<br /><br />I have to say that I am a big fan. I recall the biblical evidence for catholicisim many years ago and am glad to see you here. I love your work and the articles...I have been trying to see if one day I can develop greater knowledge about the holy Catholic and Apotolic Church. I'm wondering if there is a way to contact you directly by email for any additional supports... I work in RCIA and would really like some extra good articles for the classes, especially next year (9 people just entered the Church at Easter).<br /><br />I also have a question about the recent attacks against pope JPII and JohnXXIII saying that they should not be canonzized due to the sexual abuse scandals. In your section on the scandals, I couldn't find and good articles about this...I find it frustrating to hear lies about the Church and the inconsistencies with historical record (like you noted in this articles by SAm Shamoun)<br /><br />God Bless you.<br /><br />Christophe Maguet Winnipeg, Mantioba, CanadaAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12405815955074008592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-6373177677198375062014-04-26T14:43:04.692-04:002014-04-26T14:43:04.692-04:00Thanks for your excellent comment. I was inclined ...Thanks for your excellent comment. I was inclined to agree that this has no bearing on his expertise on Islam, but to believe something so ridiculous does, it seems to me, cast some general doubt on his credibility.<br /><br />I linked to his work on Islam for years. I no longer do, because I feel he can't be trusted for accuracy and attention to important detail after <i>this</i> pathetic performance.<br /><br />It may be that most or all of his work regarding Islam is sound, but without examining it, the reasonable conclusion to me, in light of how he "argued" here, is that it very well may not be.<br /><br />When people do dumb things they have consequences; as you say, "it does reputational damage to himself."<br /><br />It sure did . . . Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-4185489923713995462014-04-26T14:27:01.243-04:002014-04-26T14:27:01.243-04:00Dear Mr. Armstrong
I commend you for your patienc...Dear Mr. Armstrong<br /><br />I commend you for your patience, evident scholarship and attention to detail. I concur with your assessment that Mr ‘Shamoun does great work in answering and refuting the claims of Islam.’ However, his work in this field is not damaged by his lazy and arrogant approach that he takes with you on this issue. It is possible that a person can be expert in one endeavour but not see his blindness when he steps into another arena. It is a shame that he does this though because it does reputational damage to himself. And it is a warning to all of us to be more cautious (and humble?) when we venture beyond our own field of expertise.<br /><br />It is also ironic because he does not apply the same methodology when discussing and criticising Islam that he does when challenging you and making claims about the Catholic Church. The claims of the Islamic faith are contained in the texts as revealed through the Quran, hadith, the Sira, etc. Anyone who wants to challenge him can easily go to those same authoritative texts and argue the point. Mr Shamoun knows this and he yet refuses to look seriously at authoritative texts when making statements about history or the Church. He wants you to provide evidence and proof but then says you provide too much evidence and proof! <br /><br />He wants something to be and wants it so bad that he refuses to use his powers of reason to see the reality. There might still be a bit of Islam in him!<br /><br />Thank youKinanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08746811949428887333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-21294552334965772362014-04-24T04:57:20.344-04:002014-04-24T04:57:20.344-04:00Thanks for the encouragement, Clint. God bless you...Thanks for the encouragement, Clint. God bless you.Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-42518116918377035872014-04-24T02:29:57.987-04:002014-04-24T02:29:57.987-04:00Keep up the good work Dave. Keep up the good work Dave. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06562124850574158599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-5779244267184910932014-04-24T02:14:04.074-04:002014-04-24T02:14:04.074-04:00What Dave said.
It's a very difficult questi...What Dave said. <br /><br />It's a very difficult question. I would add to what Dave wrote:<br /><br />1) Many people are hopelessly ignorant and confused. That's just the way it is. Such people cannot reflect rationally on any set of beliefs or ideas. Their worldview and their beliefs simply emerge "full-grown" from the unconscious, although they sometimes attempt to rationalize them. Their rationales are never reasons. These people are essentially unreachable, except by grace. <br /><br />2) The examples you give appear to be people who have attempted to reflect rationally on what they believe but then have surrendered to unreason. The first set of people I described lack the ability to be rational. Those who can glimpse reality but then reject it, on the other hand, lack a commitment to the truth. They lack this commitment because they fear the truth. They don't realize that there is nothing to fear, that the truth is beautiful and more consoling than any falsehood. What they put in the place of the truth is what they feel "ought" to be true. <br /><br />That's why "sola scriptura" is so popular with some people. They need bring nothing to a text other than their prejudices and so there is nothing to prevent them from "interpreting" God's word to mean what they want it mean, what they think it "ought" to mean. Thus, all "revelation" becomes a reflection, a mirror, of their own feelings and preferences. Or, to put it another way, what they bring to the word is what they take from it. <br /><br />Now, where do they get their preformed ideas of what the truth "ought" to be? From a false image of God that resides, largely unexamined, in their minds. From a delusion, in other words. <br /><br />One way to overcome this imprisonment in the self is by cultivating objectivity and considering perspectives that aren't merely curved in on themselves. That can only be accomplished by deference to an authoritative interpreter outside of one's own mind.<br /><br />What I am trying to describe is the same as Dave's "underlying framework or presuppositional grid, though which other things are interpreted."Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-4269717125591801412014-04-23T01:01:41.588-04:002014-04-23T01:01:41.588-04:00I would say three things about that:
1) It's ...I would say three things about that:<br /><br />1) It's a spiritual battle and sometimes Satan wins and causes folks to go astray.<br /><br />2) Conversion is an intensely personal and emotional phenomenon, and people sometimes do strange things under those conditions.<br /><br />3) Conversion involves an underlying framework or presuppositional grid, through which other things are interpreted. This can change and go one direction or another.Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-70198570399302794652014-04-23T00:32:24.677-04:002014-04-23T00:32:24.677-04:00Dave, and Adomnan I have a thoughts on this phenom...Dave, and Adomnan I have a thoughts on this phenomena I would like to share and get your opinions.<br /><br />I was thinking about his when reading Doug Beoumonts announcement this AM. I wrote him congratulations and expressed that he'd probably heard already from both sides that "I saw it coming." But then I thought, yeah, I hoped, but I knew the odds still weren't there. I've seen a lot of people draw close. Along the lines of the Chesterton quote mentioned above, I've seen people get close enough to get touched. THEN, I've seen them go off into crazy land which is often enough becoming even more anti-Catholic. One pretty well known blogger that several people were corresponding with and had a lot of attraction to Catholicism. He went through a phase where he seemed like he was opening up, then pulled away. Within weeks he was getting pretty far out developing his own personal brand of theology. Solo Scriptura all the way. Another personal friend I thought was right about to start RCIA, then came up with excuses, then dropped my friendship and became from what I here very angry with Catholicism. <br /><br />I think, as in every Journey, there comes a jumping of point. When people pull away, I think it often becomes emotional and they can't let themselves try to treat the subject fairly.<br /><br />Another guy I had ready to enter RCIA. He backed out and returned to the Gay lifestyle and moved in with a partner. He also found excuses to be angry with the Church and with me. But... in that case, Mary had had his heart for a few years already. She took care of it. I sponsored him in RCIA 3 years later and he's been Catholic for a few years now. <br /><br /> Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02552890515476858768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-77424948823897839882014-04-21T22:10:20.776-04:002014-04-21T22:10:20.776-04:00Jose Joseph: I suggest to debate sam on these issu...Jose Joseph: I suggest to debate sam on these issues. Let's be professional and move this to an academic setting. <br /><br />Adomnan: You mean a public oral debate? I doubt that either Dave or Mr. Shamoun is interested in that. Nor should they be. <br /><br />There is only one "issue" here: the grossly, wildly, obscenely, ridiculously exaggerated so-called "stats," which Mr. Shamoun irresponsibly picked up from a Seventh-Day Adventist kook and used to slander the Catholic Church.<br /><br />Dave and the others here who commented on Dave's post corrected the record using actual facts provided by real, professional historians who are expert in the field. For some reason, Mr. Shamoun covered his ears and shut his eyes and refused even to listen to the correction. <br /><br />What's there left to "debate?"Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-69331873145012399402014-04-20T15:38:01.132-04:002014-04-20T15:38:01.132-04:00Jose,
I don't debate the intellectual equival...Jose,<br /><br />I don't debate the intellectual equivalents of flat-earthers; nor do I debate anti-Catholics (that's been my policy since 2007). <br /><br />Sorry to disappoint you. Sam the Sham had his chance to engage in normal discussion and chose to act like an ass. <br /><br />I don't waste time during my time on earth with vain controversies and stupid discussions (per St. Paul). The harvest is ready and the laborers are few. I'm here to spread the message of the gospel and the fullness of the Catholic faith.<br /><br />Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-85489391056690094712014-04-20T13:17:34.088-04:002014-04-20T13:17:34.088-04:00Jose Joseph
So did you fail to notice the slander...Jose Joseph<br /><br />So did you fail to notice the slanders and insults that Sam INITIALLY gave Mr. Armstrong in his reply? When given historical evidence contrary to Sam's ludicrous claims, Sam simply ignores the documentation and results to slander and accusation. <br /><br />So I guess that a double standard is perfectly fine and acceptable for anti-Catholics and that such double standards are allowed to be brought to the academic arena for debate but only by anti-Catholics. The uncharitable manner in which Sam responded is what's being criticized and laughed at here.<br /><br />It's going to be hard to debate an individual who refuses to read the vast amounts of "academic" evidence which has been written and documented by well respected, NON-CATHOLIC historians that disprove Sam's (and Jack Chick's) claims, when that individual has nothing more than an anti-Catholic axe to grind. I should know, as I used to be one over fifteen years ago. <br /><br />I can tell you first hand, NO amount of documentation will ever change such a mind because pride is at the VERY center of that anti-Catholic hate. It was only by the Grace of God, that I was able to break through that and see things as they really were. It was a very humbling and humiliating experience, but I thank God that it happened.<br /><br />Blessed EasterAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02071553585020176487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-45697029036760002782014-04-20T11:24:20.189-04:002014-04-20T11:24:20.189-04:00I am christheway24, I notice the insults at sam sh...I am christheway24, I notice the insults at sam shamoun by comments made by individuals on this post. I suggest to debate sam on these issues. Let's be professional and move this to an academic setting.Jose Joseph/ CTW24https://www.blogger.com/profile/13780971030937008456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-13097224707769301932014-04-20T03:01:27.089-04:002014-04-20T03:01:27.089-04:00Mr. Armstrong,
People like this fellow have made...Mr. Armstrong, <br /><br />People like this fellow have made up their minds already and are prejudiced against the Church no matter what. He put on airs of respectability and erudition initially but when put on his back against the wall,he gives you exactly the treatment you received. What you did was expose his hypocrisy and overweening hubris. Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07535711921649186994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-89526660972442130572014-04-18T16:59:52.209-04:002014-04-18T16:59:52.209-04:00I only comment on Dave's blog from time to tim...I only comment on Dave's blog from time to time, Alan. I have no blog or page of my own.Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-2785564431718196842014-04-17T23:00:56.004-04:002014-04-17T23:00:56.004-04:00Adomnam
Do you have an apologetics page or blog? ...Adomnam<br /><br />Do you have an apologetics page or blog? If so, I'd love to have the link.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02071553585020176487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-10742715736002034632014-04-17T21:55:18.795-04:002014-04-17T21:55:18.795-04:00"Needless to say, no reply, but my comment is..."Needless to say, no reply, but my comment is deleted now, so no one can see it except on my blog and Facebook."<br /><br />The truth wasn't working out, and so Sam decided it was safer to stick to the big lie.Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-34684207172603340792014-04-17T18:19:38.422-04:002014-04-17T18:19:38.422-04:00Another guy in the combox cited what appeared to p...Another guy in the combox cited what appeared to possibly be several real historians, but their figures were all in the low thousands. <br /><br />I asked how those (even granted for the sake of argument) added up to "50-68 million"? Needless to say, no reply, but my comment is deleted now, so no one can see it except on my blog and Facebook.<br /><br />Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-25789316608089975852014-04-17T18:17:14.248-04:002014-04-17T18:17:14.248-04:00It's especially fun given the Ellen White prop...It's especially fun given the Ellen White prophecy nonsense. This is our stellar "historian," huh? I guess Sam the Sham thinks so.Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-37129350769674704692014-04-17T18:12:00.690-04:002014-04-17T18:12:00.690-04:00I looked up Mr. Shamoun's source for his anti-...I looked up Mr. Shamoun's source for his anti-Catholic stats, David A. Plaisted. Plaisted is a fundamentalist Seventh Day Adventist. Seventh Day Adventism is anti-Catholicism organized into a "church," with vegetarianism optional. <br /><br />Shamoun relies on the ranting of a SDA kook, a credulous student of Ellen White's "prophecies," while dismissing the work of real historians.Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-53165436893848657212014-04-17T16:14:14.903-04:002014-04-17T16:14:14.903-04:00I compared Mr. Shamoun to Goebbels only in the res...I compared Mr. Shamoun to Goebbels only in the respect that Shamoun, like Goebbels, is willing to let an oft-repeated big lie serve in place of the truth. If someone less infamous than Goebbels had said something so pertinent, I would have cited that person instead.<br /><br />Maybe it would have been better to have written, "A propagandist once said...." That way I would not have run afoul of Godwin's Law. What I wanted was the quotation, not the "reductio ad Hitlerum."Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-37318164448086708232014-04-17T14:32:09.675-04:002014-04-17T14:32:09.675-04:00The comparison to Goebbels is over the top, but es...The comparison to Goebbels is over the top, but essentially it is true what you write. Calvin did mock Servetus, even as he was being burned to death. It's chilling to read how he talked about it.Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-6294396999376563412014-04-17T14:25:36.533-04:002014-04-17T14:25:36.533-04:00Sam Shamoun is covering his ears and shouting to a...Sam Shamoun is covering his ears and shouting to avoid hearing the truth. He's a liar and propagandist, nothing more, as morally bankrupt in this respect as a Goebbels, who is famous for having said (paraphrasing), "If you repeat a lie over and over, it eventually becomes the truth." <br /><br />Shamoun is "Reformed?" What about all the victims of Calvin's inquisition in Geneva, like Michael Servetus who was burnt at the stake? Calvin felt demonic glee in hearing the reports of his innocuous victim's screams and useless pleading, as Calvin himself detailed with relish in a letter. What about that, Mr. Shamoun? How many people did your church murder and what was the justification? (As "Reformed," Shamoun must consider Calvin, the founder of Reformeddom, a member of his church.)<br /><br />Instead of hurling accusations at others, Pharisee-like, Shamoun should examine his own tradition which, whenever it had power, was as intolerant, murderous and persecuting as any of "those others" that Shamoun so complacently condemns.Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.com