tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post7112920005412584200..comments2023-10-05T08:25:13.232-04:00Comments on Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: New Low in Anti-Catholic "Humor": St. Thérèse of Lisieux as Hitler / John Bugay Tries to Justify it Based on Historic Anti-Semitism/ Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comBlogger186125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-82488787218322481032011-12-07T12:45:44.337-05:002011-12-07T12:45:44.337-05:00I have decided to delete all the recent comments s...I have decided to delete all the recent comments since I opened this combox up again (yesterday). It has gotten out of hand on both sides.<br /><br />To be fair, I decided to make a clean sweep, including my own comments, and others that stuck to issues rather than persons, rather than pick-and-choose.<br /><br />I didn't agree with all that was written, and disagreed with two things in particular (defending Bugay a bit and then Luther and Calvin in one respect), but whatever. It's all deleted now. Emotions were running very high on both sides.<br /><br />If it comes down to free speech vs. charity or "caution," sometimes we have to choose the latter, as the best and most Christian thing to do.<br /><br />The thread is now closed for good.<br /><br />We need to stay away from personal stuff as much as possible. I know it's very difficult when our opponents (who are, sadly, brothers in Christ) sit there calling us "swine" and "bottom feeders" and so forth (and I have been associated with dog crap and worse), but we have to try to do better.<br /><br />I'm becoming increasingly disgusted with anti-Catholic antics, and probably will now choose to ignore it for the most part, or perhaps even totally. I have been merely <i>documenting</i> anti-Catholic foolishness since 2007, when I stopped debating them, for the sheer futility of it. It may now be time to even stop that. <br /><br />What I have already documented, and (from 1996 to 2007) debated with them is more than sufficient for me to feel that I have done my "apologetic duty" of protecting the flock from this garbage.Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-69919660638150095372011-12-04T18:17:39.844-05:002011-12-04T18:17:39.844-05:00Ben -- interesting that that article on propitiati...Ben -- interesting that that article on propitiation is looking at the LXX. To be sure, the Old Testament has many instances of God's hatred (of sin, idolatry, etc.) anger, wrath, etc.<br /><br />However, even if Protestantism were to have made every translation mistake in the world (which they certainly haven't), none of that provides a justification for Rome.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-82338735248315890662011-12-04T17:15:18.023-05:002011-12-04T17:15:18.023-05:00Very good link, Ben, thanks, showing how careful a...Very good link, Ben, thanks, showing how careful and thorough the Fathers were in their exposition of scripture and how faithful to the apostolic tradition -- so unlike Murray's sloppy, superficial "exegesis," which abuses the Bible to prop up conceptions he brings with him and imposes on the text.<br /><br />Murray does not come humbly and patiently to the word of God. He comes to tell God what He must do.<br /><br />That's why Murray -- and Bugay -- can blithely read Paul's "faith is imputed as righteousness" as the WCF's "faith is not imputed as righteousness." To them it makes no difference how the text is worded, because they can interpret it anyway they see fit -- even to the point of understanding "is" as "is not."Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-29186937083032990032011-12-04T15:24:21.352-05:002011-12-04T15:24:21.352-05:00You are back to advocating pantheists.
Don't ...<i>You are back to advocating pantheists.</i><br /><br />Don't be ridiculous, John. I'm advocation no such thing! Again, just thought the letter was interesting; beyond that, I have no great sympathy for either Barth or Kung (although <i>some</i> of what they have written actually isn't bad).<br /><br />Now here's an <a href="http://www.orthodox-christianity.com/2011/04/christ-the-mercy-seat/" rel="nofollow">article </a> for you and some search results <a href="https://www.google.com/search?sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&lr=&source=hp&q=appease+%22angry+god%22++pagan+calvin&pbx=1&oq=appease+%22angry+god%22++pagan+calvin&aq=f&aqi=&aq=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=337567l341547l0l342337l3l3l0l0l0l0l238l611l0.2.1l3l0&biw=1181&bih=617&cad=cbv&sei=Y83bTvrFOe-GsgKg3bjwDQ" rel="nofollow">here</a> you might like to look through.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971132944684765473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-56722024166857980252011-12-04T03:03:16.549-05:002011-12-04T03:03:16.549-05:00Bugay: You are back at advocating pantheists.
Ado...Bugay: You are back at advocating pantheists.<br /><br />Adomnan: Stop bloviating -- as if you knew what you were talking about. Nobody cares about your "pantheism" shtick.Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-11913742761461671872011-12-04T02:56:39.906-05:002011-12-04T02:56:39.906-05:00Bugay: Both of you: this is a fascinating demand, ...Bugay: Both of you: this is a fascinating demand, given the way you must hide behind the Magisterium.<br /><br />Adomnan: Well, you're not "hiding behind the Magisterium," so you don't have that excuse. Answer for yourself, o magisterium of one.<br /><br />You just want to post your rants and refuse to answer for them. Do that on your own blog.Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-15957416902952878042011-12-04T02:16:03.491-05:002011-12-04T02:16:03.491-05:00Adomnan: Defend your false gospel yourself, you co...<i>Adomnan: Defend your false gospel yourself, you coward. Don't hide behind Murray.</i><br /><br />Dozie:<i>You seem to wax strong when talking about Catholicism but when asked about your Protestantism, you want to flee to some private email; how convenient!!</i><br /><br />Both of you: this is a fascinating demand, given the way you must hide behind the Magisterium.<br /><br />Ben: regarding Barth/Kung: Alister McGrath notes that Kung has done “little more than demonstrate that Roman Catholics and Protestants share a common Christocentric anti-Pelagian theology of justification”. And Van Til (“Christianity and Barthianism”, 385), in his criticism of both of these men says “Neither Barth nor Kung depend for the origination and continued existence of human personality upon the iblical idea of creation and providence. When they refer to creation and providence, these are virtually absorbed into Christology”. You are back at advocating pantheists.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-31235564752696591702011-12-04T00:31:25.117-05:002011-12-04T00:31:25.117-05:00Spoils23m: Here is R.C. Sproul's explanation: ...Spoils23m: Here is R.C. Sproul's explanation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IapqqQ45Q4w<br /><br />Adomnan: I watched this, Spoils. I think my "favorite" part was, "God looks at Christ and what does He see? Justice? He sees a mass of sinfulness!....This is elementary." <br /><br />Hoo boy. Sproul's god had better get his eyes checked.Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-34387150747552516672011-12-03T22:27:01.751-05:002011-12-03T22:27:01.751-05:00Spoils: I feel as though one must be obliged to de...Spoils: I feel as though one must be obliged to deduce this teaching based on one's beliefs about Christ having the sins of the elect imputed to Him, 'becoming sin' (II Cor. 5:21, 'harmartia,' etc.), from a Reformed perspective, as I have yet to see any exegesis offered to support the idea that the Bible asserts the concept that Christ's righteousness is 'imputed' to the account of the unconditionally/individually elected sinner.<br /><br />Adomnan: II Cor. 5:21 doesn't imply that Christ had the sins of the world (or the elect) imputed to him. (I realize you're not asserting this; you're noting correctly that it's the "Reformed perspective.")<br /><br />II Cor. 5:21 would be more accurately translated as "He made the one who knew no sin a sin offering for us." "Hamartia" was the regular translation of the Hebrew word for "sin offering" in the Septuagint; and so this is the word that Paul, who relies on the Septuagint, uses for "sin offering." The same meaning as "sin offering" probably occurs in Romans 8:3: "peri hamartias": "as a sin offering."<br /><br />The "sin offering" was not a scapegoat. Sins were transferred to the scapegoat in the Day of Atonement ritual, but not to the "sin offering," which, as Paul says in II Cor 5:21, "knew no sin." Christ is never compared to the scapegoat -- not in the Epistle to the Hebrews, which draws parallels between Christ as a victim and the Day of Atonement sin offering, not anywhere. <br /><br />Given that Christ is equated with the sin offering, He cannot be a scapegoat and there can be no question of other people's sins being transferred to Him in any sense. The scapegoat and the animal that served as the sin offering were diametically opposed, one being offered to God, the other not offered at all, but sent away to the wilderness.<br /><br />Therefore, the Reformed perspective on II Cor 5:21 is untenable and must be rejected.Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-51864500790861790432011-12-03T21:22:26.539-05:002011-12-03T21:22:26.539-05:00Bugay: Hah hah.
Adomnan: Defend your false gospel...Bugay: Hah hah.<br /><br />Adomnan: Defend your false gospel yourself, you coward. Don't hide behind Murray.Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-40527058386557732192011-12-03T21:06:17.334-05:002011-12-03T21:06:17.334-05:00Adomnan: I've got visitors coming in the next ...Adomnan: I've got visitors coming in the next few days, and I won't have as much time to indulge in this fun.<br /><br />Ben: Perfectly ok; I understand.<br /><br />Bugay: without casting my pearls before swine.<br /><br />Ben: Its really disheatening to see, but John, it seems that you've been infected with that same irrational and inveterate hatred of the Church which infected Luther, and which drove him to endless slanders against her, along with numeroust crude expressions of contempt for all who disagreed with him. See his letter <br /><a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=ZIDXNn7Vl54C&pg=PA97&dq=%22Legaten+und+seinem+Herrn+in+seine+Dispensation%22&hl=en&ei=_MDaTpDiA6v82gW4qfjYDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CEEQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22Legaten%20und%20seinem%20Herrn%20in%20seine%20Dispensation%22&f=false" rel="nofollow">here</a> (English translation of the (typical for Luther) expression <a href="https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=%22on+the+legate+and+his+master%22&btnG=" rel="nofollow">here</a>).<br /><br />I might note that the editors of Luther (American ed) were carefull to wash out Luther's mouth, at least <a href="https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=%22+I+don%E2%80%99t+give+a+hoot+for+the+legate%22+%22+we+shall+find+%22&btnG=" rel="nofollow">in the above instance</a>.<br /><br />But what hatred! How unworthy of the name Christian!<br /><br />ALL:<br /><br />I'm not in sympathy with either Karl Barth or Hans Küng, but the <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=HIStK7W4tvAC&pg=PR67&dq=%22you+have+asked+me+to+put+in+writing+something+about+that+book+of+yours%22&hl=en&ei=k9LaTqizPMm_2QW4s6W9Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22you%20have%20asked%20me%20to%20put%20in%20writing%20something%20about%20that%20book%20of%20yours%22&f=false" rel="nofollow">following letter of Barth to Kung</a> is very interesting and worth having a look at. <br /><br />And John Bugay, you might learn a lesson from it about basic humility and charity (see particularly para 3).Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971132944684765473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-61907744839369718392011-12-03T20:54:40.449-05:002011-12-03T20:54:40.449-05:00Ben: I say fire away! This is interesting.
Jim Pa...Ben: I say fire away! This is interesting.<br /><br />Jim Paton: I agree. Bombs away ginger :¬)<br /><br />Adomnan: Come on, guys, don't make me slog through Murray's dog poop -- to use John's expression ("bull poop" might be more appropriate) -- just for the entertainment value. <br /><br />If you read the article, you'll see it's a tissue of unfounded assumptions with only the flimsiest "scriptural" window-dressing. Do I really have to bother?<br /><br />I wrote, if "anyone .... wants me to address any of Murray's specific arguments, then I will do so." That is, is there some specific point Murray makes that you find thought-provoking? Not the whole mind-numbing shebang. <br /><br />I've got visitors coming in the next few days, and I won't have as much time to indulge in this fun.Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-68242471368389465552011-12-03T20:30:36.876-05:002011-12-03T20:30:36.876-05:00Bugay: No one here should have any questions about...Bugay: No one here should have any questions about what I think about the Roman hierarchy.<br /><br />Adomnan: Does anyone here have any questions about what Bugay thinks about the Roman hierarchy?<br /><br />I didn't think so.<br /><br />Nope. No questions, John.Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-56124884055804791542011-12-03T20:23:21.762-05:002011-12-03T20:23:21.762-05:00Bugay: Just as a point of order, it doesn't ta...Bugay: Just as a point of order, it doesn't take subscription to WCF XI.I in order to reject Roman claims.<br /><br />Adomnan: So you reject WCF XI.I?Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-46233381961470524572011-12-03T20:19:06.612-05:002011-12-03T20:19:06.612-05:00Bugay: without casting my pearls before swine.
Ad...Bugay: without casting my pearls before swine.<br /><br />Adomnan: Those ain't pearls you're casting.<br /><br />Bugay: And I am very comfortable to talk with him privately<br /><br />Adomnan: Then why not send HIM an email?Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-91183054787404537032011-12-03T20:07:41.905-05:002011-12-03T20:07:41.905-05:00Chris/Spoils is an old friend of mine. And I am ve...Chris/Spoils is an old friend of mine. And I am very comfortable to talk to talk with him privately, without casting my pearls before swine.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-16831223341440780172011-12-03T20:01:17.570-05:002011-12-03T20:01:17.570-05:00My point is, I was every bit as knowledgeable and ...My point is, I was every bit as knowledgeable and devout a Catholic as anyone here, and then I totally rejected it, with no fear of condemnation, but only faith and trust in Christ alone for my salvation. <br /><br />I laugh at Rome's anathemas, whether or not they are "reformulated positively." Roman authority is a pure fiction.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-23452046506393010452011-12-03T19:57:36.532-05:002011-12-03T19:57:36.532-05:00Bugay: Dozie, I cannot possibly do a better job th...Bugay: Dozie, I cannot possibly do a better job than Murray did.<br /><br />Adomnan: Then why ask Spoils to email you? You just admitted he's not going to get anything better from you than he got from Murray. It's not like you're holding back the "good stuff" for those who contact you privately.Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-9873717138701053142011-12-03T19:48:40.815-05:002011-12-03T19:48:40.815-05:00I was a devout cradle Catholic, I left and later b...I was a devout cradle Catholic, I left and later became an adult convert. I applied for and was accepted to a seminary to study for the priesthood. Later, after I was married and had several children, I was a part of Opus Dei for several years. I was a far more devout and believing Catholic than almost anyone I knew. Your insistence that I was or am somehow ignorant is terribly misguided. An ongoing instance of your belief in fiction.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-28228949135152272962011-12-03T19:39:38.877-05:002011-12-03T19:39:38.877-05:00Well, one goes to hell if one knows it is true and...Well, one goes to <b>hell</b> if one knows it is true and rejects it. In your case, however, if ever there was a case for invincible ignorance, you are the personification of it, when you pontificate <i>ad nauseum</i> on Catholicism.Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-50475716422906043932011-12-03T19:33:27.858-05:002011-12-03T19:33:27.858-05:00For me, the question was, "Rome, right or wro...For me, the question was, "Rome, right or wrong?" apart from any other consideration. If Rome is not what it says it is, then it is rightly rejected. Where you go after that is a separate question.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-58079710582761776902011-12-03T19:25:49.345-05:002011-12-03T19:25:49.345-05:00Dozie, I cannot possibly do a better job than Murr...Dozie, I cannot possibly do a better job than Murray did. If you want to know why I trust Murray and WCF rather than Rome, well, I think the Roman hierarchy is the most corrupt organization that has ever existed. And so it really is an easy decision. No one here should have any questions about what I think about the Roman hierarchy.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-73330355918058929512011-12-03T19:19:09.070-05:002011-12-03T19:19:09.070-05:00"Email Me"
Nope.
John Bugay enjoys en..."Email Me"<br /><br />Nope.<br /> <br />John Bugay enjoys enjoys insulting the Catholic Church in public; now he wants to discuss Protestantism in private. We are reading along and we are interested in how you respond to reasonable questions asked of you of your faith. This is your chance to give a public defense for some of the nonesense you have decided to believe.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-34542035090967179292011-12-03T17:33:03.653-05:002011-12-03T17:33:03.653-05:00"I say fire away! This is interesting."
..."I say fire away! This is interesting."<br /><br />I agree. Bombs away ginger :¬)Jim Patonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16468940799078913115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-41254083487153193432011-12-03T17:12:44.001-05:002011-12-03T17:12:44.001-05:00If Spoils or anyone out there (besides Bugay or th...<i>If Spoils or anyone out there (besides Bugay or the Triablogue crew) want me to address any of Murray's specific arguments, then I will do so.</i><br /><br />I say fire away! This is interesting.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971132944684765473noreply@blogger.com