tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post6576706752575982179..comments2023-10-05T08:25:13.232-04:00Comments on Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: Dialogue with a Calvinist About the Propriety of Calling Mary the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and About True DialogueDave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comBlogger86125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-32633578129687577782009-09-12T02:58:13.865-04:002009-09-12T02:58:13.865-04:00I'm still pluggin' away. Three new posts t...I'm still pluggin' away. Three new posts today. I tend to not get too involved in the combox (usually for lack of time) unless there is a direct challenge to my post (and not by an anti-Catholic).<br /><br />The combox is mostly off on completely different topics now, anyway: trust and faith, etc.<br /><br />That's fine, but I am not always interested at the time in rabbit trails that may spontaneously arise in the discussions. The comboxes are their own entities: I don't need to always get involved in them if the folks participating are holding their own.<br /><br />That's part of this blog, too: others joining in and making great points.Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-83893753660675161042009-09-11T23:42:07.878-04:002009-09-11T23:42:07.878-04:00Whatever happened to Dave A.? Seems like this com...Whatever happened to Dave A.? Seems like this combox should be renamed "The Silence of the Lambs."<br /><br />LOL?<br /><br />All right, so it wasn't so funny. I tried, didn't I?Pilgrimsarbourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18046918223325823689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-48520724945781475942009-09-11T21:24:36.515-04:002009-09-11T21:24:36.515-04:00CCC: It is right and just to entrust oneself wholl...CCC: It is right and just to entrust oneself wholly to God and to believe absolutely what he says. <br /><br />Adomnan: This sentence recommends two things, trust and faith ("to believe absolutely what he says"). It doesn't confuse them. <br /><br />Just because the CCC mentions trust in a section on faith doesn't mean they're collapsing the two concepts into one. <br /><br />Elsewhere they mention love in connection with faith. Does that mean they're conflating faith and love?<br /><br />If you read the whole section, which is rather lengthy, you'll see that trust isn't mentioned much and that the emphasis is put on faith as assent to God's revelation -- naturally enough, since the section is about faith! <br /><br />Pilgrimsarbour: Gotta run--hope to check out all the other comments later on, maybe late tonight or tomorrow.<br /><br />Adomnan: I may drop out of the discussion. I have to prepare for a trip.Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-40917081787005472012009-09-11T18:46:49.522-04:002009-09-11T18:46:49.522-04:00Jonathan: My response has been that this does not ...Jonathan: My response has been that this does not count as a proximate object of faith to which the intellect can assent. An intellectual assent is not trust; this is why it would be misleading to speak of "trusting one's senses."<br /><br />Adomnan: Helpful observation, Jonathan. One of the reasons that faith should not be confused with trust is that we believe with the intellect, not through subjective feeling. An intellecutal assent (faith) cannot be trust, as you say, because trust is a matter of subjective feeling or of practical necessity (reliance), not of intellect perception. <br /><br />To me, it makes no sense to say, "I trust that Christ died for our sins and was raised for our justification." It would be like saying, "I trust that God is One." Both of these assertions have been divinely revealed, and both can only be believed -- assented to -- not trusted. <br /><br />There are many occasions when trust in God and Christ is called for, but believing what God has revealed is not one of them.Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-29577059069664513992009-09-11T18:45:16.650-04:002009-09-11T18:45:16.650-04:00I understand that you think the concept of trust w...I understand that you think the concept of trust wedded to faith is a Protestant innovation. I do have a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, but I just haven't had a chance to check it out. However, blogger TurretinFan provided this information to me from the CCC:<br /><br />CCC150 Faith is first of all a personal adherence of man to God. At the same time, and inseparably, it is a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed. As personal adherence to God and assent to his truth, Christian faith differs from our faith in any human person. <b>It is right and just to entrust oneself wholly to God and to believe absolutely what he says.</b> It would be futile and false to place such faith in a creature.17 <br /><br />17: Cf. Jer 17:5-6; Pss 40:5; 146:3-4.<br /><br />(italics in original, bold emphasis mine)<br /><br />So there is, in fact, an element of trust involved, as the CCC states. I realise, of course, that we are miles apart regarding the RCC emphasis on mental assent to a series of revealed facts. The Protestant idea of trust does seem to be much more prominent in our theology than in yours, which is not to deny our deep love of doctrine as is infallibly revealed for us in the Scriptures.<br /><br />Gotta run--hope to check out all the other comments later on, maybe late tonight or tomorrow.Pilgrimsarbourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18046918223325823689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-57767499201282272822009-09-11T17:16:16.861-04:002009-09-11T17:16:16.861-04:00My deconstruction of Reformed trust was based on a...<i>My deconstruction of Reformed trust was based on an intuition, and I am happy to see it validated by scholarly research.</i><br /><br />I think Tim Enloe is actually missing that distinction, and viewing what he says charitably, that is probably why he sees Aquinas as saying something similar to what he has in mind, which is that Scripture is "trustworthy" or a "sure guide." My response has been that this does not count as a proximate object of faith to which the <i>intellect</i> can assent. An intellectual assent is not trust; this is why it would be misleading to speak of "trusting one's senses." Even if you're trying to figure out a hallucination or an illusion, it still isn't a question of not "trusting" what your senses tell you, but rather trying to accurately evaluate what information you are receiving through them (which might not be directly related, like being under the influence of a hallucinogen). But there's no way even dysfunctional senses can fail to convey information, even if it is just the fact that they are functioning defectively.CrimsonCatholichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08623996344637714843noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-19685562879177443062009-09-11T16:40:13.176-04:002009-09-11T16:40:13.176-04:00Now I remember the answer to PA's Q: Why PVM i...Now I remember the answer to PA's Q: Why PVM is obligitory?<br /><br />In 1536 the Sexual revolution started with the deninal of celebacy leading to today with "the true son of Luther"....feetxxxl (me quoting myself)<br /><br />The assertion of the PVM as a necessay truth was needed (by the HS) to stem the oncoming tide. By the PVM we know truely celebacy, the marriage bed and how they are tied.<br /><br />2nd bathroom break on a 5 hour carride. Sigh :)Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13750763393428404220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-44599972278881242272009-09-11T16:20:37.550-04:002009-09-11T16:20:37.550-04:00Above, I wrote: "In any event, the Eph passag...Above, I wrote: "In any event, the Eph passage cannot possibly be adduced to lend support to your conflation of faith and hope." <br /><br />I meant to say "your conflation of faith and trust."<br /><br />Still, it's also true that Pilgrimsarbour is conflating faith and hope, because Reformed/evangelical trust does bear some resemblance to biblical hope, albeit a distorted one (in my view). <br /><br />Ben, yes indeed. Protestantism was born in an age of anxiety, and Protestant fiducia was an attempt to repress that anxiety by asserting a confidence that was neither biblical nor psychologically sustainable.<br /><br />Faith is a kind of vision; and, as Isaiah said, "When there is no vision, the people perish."Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-44438393675171282252009-09-11T13:38:57.714-04:002009-09-11T13:38:57.714-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971132944684765473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-33413939644761188952009-09-11T13:35:07.404-04:002009-09-11T13:35:07.404-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971132944684765473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-24981073952802617152009-09-11T12:58:27.150-04:002009-09-11T12:58:27.150-04:00Martin: No time to talk. newadvent discusses trust...Martin: No time to talk. newadvent discusses trust and belief but rules out "sola trusta" :)<br />http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm<br />off to chincoteague<br /><br />Adomnan: Thanks, Martin! This is an excellent article, and I would urge Pilgrimsarbour to read it to get a better understanding of the Catholic definition of faith than I could present. <br /><br />What I found particularly interesting is the fact that "trust" was indeed the operative virtue in the Old Testament. However, with the full revelation of God in Jesus Christ, this trust blossomed into dogmatic faith. <br /><br />My deconstruction of Reformed trust was based on an intuition, and I am happy to see it validated by scholarly research.Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-29107195273454990022009-09-11T12:40:42.829-04:002009-09-11T12:40:42.829-04:00Pilgrimsarbour: You forget I said that trust is an...Pilgrimsarbour: You forget I said that trust is an element of faith, not that I equate the two words exactly.<br /><br />Adomnan: If trust were an element of faith, then the passage from Eph would ring true when one word were substituted for another. <br /><br />Besides, I don't think that simple virtues, like faith, hope and love, have "elements." They are just one certain thing. If they were portmanteau concepts that could be broken down into elements, then we would give each of these elements its own name and talk about them instead of the ambiguous, equivocal concepts. Otherwise, we'd all be hopelessly confused.<br /><br />In any event, the Eph passage cannot possibly be adduced to lend support to your conflation of faith and hope. You even admit that you're reading "trust" into Eph's faith, an idiosyncratic eisegesis you concede no one else is bound to recognize. So citing it serves no purpose in this discussion.Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-24208743264087779002009-09-11T12:24:18.084-04:002009-09-11T12:24:18.084-04:00Pilgrimsarbour: Wow. Faith, hope, confidence, reli...Pilgrimsarbour: Wow. Faith, hope, confidence, reliance, all here. Now, undoubtedly you will say that the word trust itself does not appear in the original lanuguages. All right, but I'm speaking of the concept which did not spring forth overnight in the 21st century.<br /><br />Adomnan: I have never said that trust in God is inappropriate. However, it is only appropriate where there is no divine revelation. If God has revealed something, we assent to it if we have faith; we do not "trust" that it is true.<br /><br />As the Catechism of the Catholic Church says (article 157), "Faith is certain. It is more certain than all human knowledge because it is founded on the very word of God who cannot lie." <br /><br />My problem with evangelical/Reformed "trust" is this: It is never mentioned as an element of faith in the New Testament. Nor is it even hinted at. Therefore, when the Reformers added "trust" to faith, they introduced a concept that was an unbiblical innovation.<br /><br />Why did they do this? They did it because they doubted what they believed. And so it was not enough just to assent to revelation; one had to take the extra step of trusting in it (i.e., setting aside one's doubts). This is what came to be called "the leap of faith." Paul, John, etc. didn't do any leaping.Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-51812262929335954752009-09-11T08:51:33.205-04:002009-09-11T08:51:33.205-04:00No time to talk. newadvent discusses trust and bel...No time to talk. newadvent discusses trust and belief but rules out "sola trusta" :)<br />http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm<br />off to chincoteagueMartinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13750763393428404220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-1142903102650806352009-09-11T01:08:45.573-04:002009-09-11T01:08:45.573-04:00Adomnan: Frankly, I don't see how "trust&...<i>Adomnan: Frankly, I don't see how "trust" makes sense in this passage even if I do a willing suspension of disbelief.</i><br /><br />You forget I said that trust is an <i>element</i> of faith, not that I equate the two words exactly.Pilgrimsarbourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18046918223325823689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-5926768077843168762009-09-11T01:05:36.546-04:002009-09-11T01:05:36.546-04:00You seem to have a very unusual definition for the...You seem to have a very unusual definition for the word trust, that it somehow implies sin in the object of that trust. I think that's reading too much into things, particularly since God is without sin. The dictionary definitions are in line with my own understanding:<br /><br />1 a : assured reliance on the character, ability, strength, or truth of someone or something b : one in which confidence is placed<br />2 a : dependence on something future or contingent : hope b : reliance on future payment for property (as merchandise) delivered<br /><br />(http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trust)<br /><br />1. reliance: confidence in and reliance on good qualities, especially fairness, truth, honor, or ability <br /><br />2. care: responsibility for taking good care of somebody or something-- We put our children in the trust of a good daycare center. <br /> <br />3. position of obligation: the position of somebody who is expected by others to behave responsibly or honorably-- <br />breached the public trust <br /> <br />4. something in which confidence is placed: somebody who or something that people place confidence or faith in (archaic or literary)<br /> <br />5. hope for the future: hopeful reliance on what will happen in the future <br /> <br />6. responsibility that somebody has: something entrusted to somebody to be responsible for <i>accepted his responsibilities as a sacred trust</i><br /> <br />(Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.)<br /><br />Wow. Faith, hope, confidence, reliance, all here. Now, undoubtedly you will say that the word trust itself does not appear in the original lanuguages. All right, but I'm speaking of the <i>concept</i> which did not spring forth overnight in the 21st century.<br /><br />The definitions involving commerce (trustee) issues are also relevant to our standing in Christ. Ephesians 1:14 speaks of the Holy Spirit (in different English translations) as being the <i>earnest</i>, the <i>deposit</i>, the <i>downpayment</i> of our inheritance in Christ, "earnest" apparently being the most literal translation.<br /><br />Just as I was about to post this, I saw your comment on Trent. Thank you for that, but it's a little slim. How about something from the catechism? If I understand that reading correctly, this is very troubling to me indeed, for it indicates that I have much less in common with Roman Catholics than I originally had thought.<br /><br />I hope I haven't been wasting everyone's time here with my running commentary the past few weeks. But I thank you all for your contributions to the many discussions we've had.Pilgrimsarbourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18046918223325823689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-41158075976345089522009-09-11T00:53:08.996-04:002009-09-11T00:53:08.996-04:00Pilgrimsarbour: It does if one sees faith and trus...Pilgrimsarbour: It does if one sees faith and trust as integral. I understand completely that you do not see trust as an element of faith, so the quote doesn't register with you.<br /><br />Adomnan: Frankly, I don't see how "trust" makes sense in this passage even if I do a willing suspension of disbelief. <br /><br />8 For by grace you have been saved through "trust." <br /><br />No, it just doesn't sound right.Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-10156771839206251422009-09-11T00:44:23.325-04:002009-09-11T00:44:23.325-04:00The Latin word for "confidence" in the p...The Latin word for "confidence" in the phrase "vain confidence of the heretics" from the Council of Trent's Decree on Justification is indeed the Reformers' "fiducia." <br /><br />Caput 9. Contra inanem hæreticorum fiduciam<br /><br />Section 9: Against the vain confidence of the hereticsAdomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-41539698564368892012009-09-11T00:29:54.419-04:002009-09-11T00:29:54.419-04:00I don't see how your quote from Ephesians is r...<i>I don't see how your quote from Ephesians is relevant. It doesn't speak of trust.</i><br /><br />It does if one sees faith and trust as integral. I understand completely that you do not see trust as an element of faith, so the quote doesn't register with you.Pilgrimsarbourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18046918223325823689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-2519899085718517322009-09-11T00:23:27.251-04:002009-09-11T00:23:27.251-04:00Pilgrimsarbour: You're saying that we should t...Pilgrimsarbour: You're saying that we should trust and rely on God for everything except His salvation provision?<br /><br />Adomnan: We don't have to trust anything that we believe God has revealed. We don't have to "trust" that Jesus Christ died for our sins and was raised for our justification. We either accept this as revealed by God, or we don't. Similarly, we don't rely on God to be one or to have raised Christ from the dead. <br /><br />"I trust that Jesus Christ died for my sins and rose for my justification" is an act of hesitation, not an act of faith. <br /><br />Paul had no doubt that God existed, that He was one, and that Jesus Christ had risen from the dead. There was no room in his soul for "trust" about these things. It wouldn't even have occurred to him. It's only when people start to question these things that they feel the need to trust in them.<br /><br />I'm just insisting on a biblical use of language.Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-11073093024147797772009-09-11T00:09:44.499-04:002009-09-11T00:09:44.499-04:00Pilgrimsarbour: The reason we need to trust in Chr...Pilgrimsarbour: The reason we need to trust in Christ is not because He is untrustworthy, but because we are frail in our sins and are not capable of extending our faith beyond that which the Lord Himself has extended to us:<br /><br />Adomnan: Well, okay. But if I understand you correctly, you are simply saying here that we have to trust Christ in those things that haven't been revealed ("beyond that which the Lord Himself has extended to us").<br /><br />I would agree with this. However, I would prefer to use the New Testament language and say that we "hope" in Christ, not that we "trust" in Him. Hope is not as presumptuous as trust, because trust makes claims on people, whereas hope just, well, hopes. If Christ hasn't promised us something, then we have no claim on Him. If He has promised something, then that is a matter of revelation that we should accept with faith, not trust. <br /><br />I don't see how your quote from Ephesians is relevant. It doesn't speak of trust. <br /><br />All of the other citations you provided translate as "trustworthy" a Greek word that is a an adjective referring to faith, i.e., "pistos." It means something more like "faithworthy," but of course we don't have that word in English and so "trustworthy" is the best we can do. But the Greek root really refers to faith, not trust. <br /><br />Ken: I would be interested to know if Catholicism officially teaches that trust in Jesus Christ is unnecessary to salvation, and where might I find that in the catechism or other documents?<br /><br />Adomnan: I know that the Council of Trent's Decree on Justification referred to "the vain confidence of the heretics," and I think this is aimed at the Reformers' "trust." However, I don't know if the Latin for "confidence" here is actually "fiducia" or some other word. I'll have to look it up on line.Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-20305371957339503762009-09-10T23:27:49.735-04:002009-09-10T23:27:49.735-04:00Pilgrimsarbour provides a number of citations from...<i>Pilgrimsarbour provides a number of citations from the Old Testament that commend or recommend trust in God. However, I had already acknowledged in my previous posts that trust in God was appropriate in certain circumstances. In the examples PA provides, this trust is a matter of a general reliance on God, not belief in specific truths that God has revealed.</i><br /><br />You're saying that we should trust and rely on God for everything <i>except</i> His salvation provision?Pilgrimsarbourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18046918223325823689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-50789170965167815532009-09-10T23:10:10.789-04:002009-09-10T23:10:10.789-04:00The reason we need to trust in Christ is not becau...The reason we need to trust in Christ is not because He is untrustworthy, but because we are frail in our sins and are not capable of extending our faith beyond that which the Lord Himself has extended to us:<br /><br />8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them (Ephesians 2:8-10).<br /><br />Why does Jesus call His words "trustworthy?"<br /><br />And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true" (Revelation 21:5).<br /><br />and also here:<br /><br />And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place" (Revelation 22:6).<br /><br />Here Paul says:<br /><br />He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it (Titus 1:9).<br /><br />Paul is not speaking of <i>his own message,</i> but that which was delivered to him by Christ, which he is faithfully passing along.<br /><br />No, I don't buy the premise that trust is an unnecessary (or even sinful!) element of faith.<br /><br />I would be interested to know if Catholicism officially teaches that trust in Jesus Christ is unnecessary to salvation, and where might I find that in the catechism or other documents?<br /><br />Also, are there any other Catholics here that think trust in Christ is unnecessary?Pilgrimsarbourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18046918223325823689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-67968664938648986342009-09-10T22:36:03.636-04:002009-09-10T22:36:03.636-04:00Pilgrimsarbout: I have a new post which deals with...Pilgrimsarbout: I have a new post which deals with the nature of faith as I have previously discussed it with Adomnan here.<br /><br />Adomnan: I read PA's post. Most of it doesn't really touch on the comments I made. Pilgrimsarbour provides a number of citations from the Old Testament that commend or recommend trust in God. However, I had already acknowledged in my previous posts that trust in God was appropriate in certain circumstances. In the examples PA provides, this trust is a matter of a general reliance on God, not belief in specific truths that God has revealed. <br /><br />On the other hand, all of the examples he supplies from the New Testament are examples of faith, not trust. And in every one of these this faith is assent to a specific revelation of God (including Jesus Christ Himself, who as the Word, is God's revelation). <br /><br />Therefore, PA's biblical survey reinforces my point; namely, that faith is solely assent to what God has revealed and does not involve any element of "trust." Trust is an entirely separate concept. Trust, unlike faith, is required where there is no revelation or when there is a possibility of deception or failure to deliver on a promise. We trust a friend to repay a loan because we realize there is a possibility he won't. If we were certain he would repay (say, if God had revealed it), then we wouldn't have to trust him, <br /><br />When God reveals or promises something and we accept that revelation, we do not have to trust Him to tell the truth or make good on His revealed promises. He is God. We only have to believe Him.<br /><br />In dealing with God, trust only comes into the picture when faith is lacking, because trust means that we are entertaining the possibility that He might fail or deceive us. <br /> <br />Let's look more closely at one of Pilgrimsarbour's comments:<br /><br />"However, within the context of a discussion of faith and works, James said this:<br />You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! (James 2:18-19).<br /> <br />"We see that James acknowledges that faith cannot be merely assent to God's revelation of Himself and His precepts, for even the demons "believe" in Christ. But it is not a belief unto salvation. They do not "trust" in Him for eternal life as God's elect do."<br /><br />In fact, this passage from James reinforces my point that faith is nothing other than assent to what God has revealed. PA appears to be drawing an unwarranted distinction between faith and believing. However, in Greek, "believe" (pisteuo) is just the verbal form of "faith" (pistis). To believe, then, is to assent to what God has revealed. Obviously, as James says, the demons do this, because they know that what God has revealed is true. So demons have "faith." They do not, however, have "trust" in God, as PA asserts quite correctly. Therefore, it is clear from this passage that faith, which the demons possess, does not include trust, which the demons lack, and is solely a matter of acknowledging what God has revealed But this has been my contention all along.<br /><br />Just to reinforce this point, note that the object of the demons' belief/faith (again, same word in Greek) is a specific revealed truth; namely, that God is one. So faith in this passage is clearly restricted to assent to revelation, excluding even a hint of trust.<br /><br />Finally, I need hardly add that, as a Catholic, I know that faith (assent to revelation) is only saving if it is accompanied by love and hope.Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-25291380063390241992009-09-10T21:24:34.667-04:002009-09-10T21:24:34.667-04:00Ken: No; I did not know that. Are you joking or is...Ken: No; I did not know that. Are you joking or is that really true?<br /><br />Adomnan: It's true. Just rearrange the letters and you'll see.<br /><br />Ken: Her father or her agent? rearranging the letters to form her name?<br /><br />Adomnan: I don't think it was intentional. Just a rather striking coincidence.Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.com