tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post6264463214365487079..comments2023-10-05T08:25:13.232-04:00Comments on Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: Did Jesus Condemn Masturbation? It Appears So (Striking Talmudic Parallels to the Sermon on the Mount)Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-13090132250091322372013-03-28T11:40:09.248-04:002013-03-28T11:40:09.248-04:00I would guess, probably not, but maybe!I would guess, probably not, but maybe!Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-69518078109808282412013-03-28T08:21:04.827-04:002013-03-28T08:21:04.827-04:00Hi Dave : could this verse also from the book of w...Hi Dave : could this verse also from the book of wisdom 3:14 , against masturbation?<br />Wis.3:14 So also the eunuch whose hand wrought no misdeed, who held no wicked thoughts against the LORD - For he shall be given fidelity's choice reward and a more gratifying heritage in the LORD'S temple.Marounhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17891800446559973689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-57799701211702975842011-10-27T11:06:42.835-04:002011-10-27T11:06:42.835-04:00How does one practice masturbation with the foot? ...<i>How does one practice masturbation with the foot? Is this some sort of Jewish euphemism for something else? It sure seems like it.</i><br /><br />I suspect that Rabbi Ishmael used the expression "either with hand or with foot" in order to convey that he was closing any possible loophole. In other words, masturbation is a grievous sin even if you don't use you hand -- whatever you use to do it, it's still very bad.Confiteborhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17951083063448447552noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-22527115619504694002011-10-25T21:54:44.289-04:002011-10-25T21:54:44.289-04:00Groovy, thanks.Groovy, thanks.Patty Bondshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08503199813799648349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-25061919088752681392011-10-24T11:22:05.401-04:002011-10-24T11:22:05.401-04:00Hi Patty,
Of course. All my writings are intended...Hi Patty,<br /><br />Of course. All my writings are intended to be spread as far and wide as possible!Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-80576155771634183882011-10-24T00:27:13.757-04:002011-10-24T00:27:13.757-04:00May I blog this, Dave? This is great. I wrote on...May I blog this, Dave? This is great. I wrote on this subject a couple years ago, but this is brilliant!Patty Bondshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08503199813799648349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-46673968547460113142011-10-23T16:28:11.416-04:002011-10-23T16:28:11.416-04:00I have no idea. LOLI have no idea. LOLDave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-6854933542405185092011-10-22T22:09:25.680-04:002011-10-22T22:09:25.680-04:00Faithful Catholic here... honest question: How doe...Faithful Catholic here... honest question: How does one practice masturbation with the foot? Is this some sort of Jewish euphemism for something else? It sure seems like it.Chad Myershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14930587550535317718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-6026915915465556542011-10-20T01:50:49.453-04:002011-10-20T01:50:49.453-04:00Hi Mercury,
The following looks to be a good arti...Hi Mercury,<br /><br />The following looks to be a good article on the topic, by Bryan Cross:<br /><br />http://www.catholicfidelity.com/apologetics-topics/justification-salvation/st-augustine-on-law-and-grace-by-bryan-cross/Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-83166833665361767802011-10-19T20:31:40.659-04:002011-10-19T20:31:40.659-04:00Dave, do you have a good article on this site, or ...Dave, do you have a good article on this site, or can you recommend one off site?<br /><br />I'm nothing if not scrupulous a full of worry - I sometimes wonder about this, but all I need to is to be afraid I'll go to hell for stopping in the grocery store on Sunday, doing light work (and I do make it a point to not do my shopping on that day, or working unless I am forced to or really need to help someone else out), etc., or for touching my wife while she's on her period.Mercuryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15864822194727243615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-5760372073228161542011-10-19T19:36:04.103-04:002011-10-19T19:36:04.103-04:00I think there is enough biblical indication, once ...I think there is enough biblical indication, once all the relevant passages are considered together. The anti-masturbation argument is quite a bit stronger, if we have Jesus outright condemning it.Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-6972789578610544732011-10-19T18:10:29.584-04:002011-10-19T18:10:29.584-04:00Great post Dave.
The argument for masturbation i...Great post Dave. <br /><br />The argument for masturbation is a bit like the one made for contraception. I am sure you had one on here a while back were someone was arguing in favor of masturbation. <br /><br />Let me know what you think of this: I think the whole thing stinks of Deism - aside from being relativist. Think about it, if there is no Scriptural evidence for or against both (or so Protestants argue) then what this amounts to is not knowing God's will in certain areas of one's life. God has left this area blank. It leaves one with a kind of do what you want mentality because God sits up on high ignoring masturbaters and contraceptors simply on the basis that there is no Scriptural evidence for or against them "What does God say about these things? Eh, don't know but he'll forgive you anyway" Sheer insanity! <br /><br />Now, I can't bring myself to believe that there is one area in my life were God does not have a say. This for me is the biggest argument against Protestantism as a system because it cannot tell me if God has a say when it should.Jim Patonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16468940799078913115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-66204594745386719012011-10-19T17:40:40.386-04:002011-10-19T17:40:40.386-04:00The question of how the law applies to Christians ...The question of how the law applies to Christians is far too involved to delve into. I'm too busy at the moment. Perhaps someone else will give it a stab. <br /><br />In the present case, it is clear that Jesus accepted some measure of authority of the Talmud and the oral tradition it codified, by following its teaching so closely (almost directly quoting it).Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-2355250767696151202011-10-19T16:45:56.009-04:002011-10-19T16:45:56.009-04:00I mean, why give all those intricate and detailed ...I mean, why give all those intricate and detailed laws in the Torah and the Talmud if He didn't intend for them to be binding? Jews look at our "well, those were ritual, not moral laws" as dishonest.Mercuryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15864822194727243615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-46098292980455182502011-10-19T16:36:31.903-04:002011-10-19T16:36:31.903-04:00Yes, but if the Talmud represents the "oral T...Yes, but if the Talmud represents the "oral Torah" as reveled to God by Moses, then shouldn't we think God was serious about all those dietary and ritual distinctions - i.e. the laws about menstruation, sabbath restrictions, etc.?<br /><br />I'm not asking this facetiously, only asking how, if it is true that the Talmud represents any actual revelation, it is non-binding on non-Jews. And if not, then why does God have all kinds of laws the Jews are restricted to (and they think he cares VERY much about), and others aren't?Mercuryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15864822194727243615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-79317919658285510102011-10-19T16:12:36.157-04:002011-10-19T16:12:36.157-04:00Fascinating.Fascinating.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-31850529389197917102011-10-19T14:08:24.606-04:002011-10-19T14:08:24.606-04:00then could the eye also mean looking at things whi...<i>then could the eye also mean looking at things which are not decent?</i><br /><br />I think it is a straightforward application: lust could be towards an actual woman or a picture of one. If it all starts in the thoughts and imagination, then it is almost irrelevant which one it is. It's an internal progression of thought and intent.Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-86626412760258225702011-10-19T14:06:43.328-04:002011-10-19T14:06:43.328-04:00do you think Orthodox Jews have severe restriction...<i>do you think Orthodox Jews have severe restrictions on foreplay and the like?</i><br /><br />I have no idea.Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-10978098857315218732011-10-19T14:04:29.403-04:002011-10-19T14:04:29.403-04:00We view the Talmud as representative of authentic ...We view the Talmud as representative of authentic Jewish (originally oral) tradition, and traditional interpretation of the Torah. We can't classify it as revelation per se; yet it likely preserves portions of what was once revelation, if we believe that God gave Moses oral law as well as written.Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-42038426681227021382011-10-19T07:46:31.760-04:002011-10-19T07:46:31.760-04:00What I had always thought!What I had always thought!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-48354095538053566752011-10-19T00:16:35.100-04:002011-10-19T00:16:35.100-04:00Hi Dave .
If the hand in Matthew 5:28-30,could be ...Hi Dave .<br />If the hand in Matthew 5:28-30,could be about masturbation , then could the eye also mean looking at things which are not decent?(pornography and the like?)<br />Thanks and GBUMarounhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17891800446559973689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-26205907963267864682011-10-18T23:23:27.445-04:002011-10-18T23:23:27.445-04:00I think it'd be dangerous viewing the Talmud a...I think it'd be dangerous viewing the Talmud as containing *some* divine revelation, wouldn't it? It's filled with all kinds of restrictions and stories that Christians either don't have to or must not follow (the intricate laws on sexuality and menstruation, for example - a man may not even touch his wife for several days). Rather, I think we would just have to look at the idea of oral tradition supplementing the Torah as similar to Apostolic Tradition supplementing Scripture ... am I right?<br /><br />Also, Dave, sorry to be graphic, but do you think Orthodox Jews have severe restrictions on foreplay and the like? Moralists are unanimous in saying that spouses can stimulate themselves and each other in the build-up to the marriage act. Here's Fr. Hardon, for example:<br /><br />"Husband and wife are allowed everything that is necessary or useful or pleasing regarding intercourse, even for experiencing fully the pleasure attached to it, and then neither party can sin in looking at, touching or acting in any other way towards his own or his spouse's body."<br /><br />http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Moral_Theology/Moral_Theology_007.htm<br /><br />So clearly, for Christians (and for everyone), what is immoral is self-stimulation with the intention to ejaculate externally - in the same way, onanism in the Biblical sense is immoral. The obejctive question is not how it's done, so to speak, but how it ends (and moralists go into great detail about how old folks may need to do all kinds of stuff to "make it happen").<br /><br />I just imagine that Jews have all kinds of burdensome restrictions placed on them w/r to marital intimacy - such as the laws I mentioned above.Mercuryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15864822194727243615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-45412518007117309722011-10-18T21:26:04.389-04:002011-10-18T21:26:04.389-04:00I suppose we'd view it the same way we view Ca...I suppose we'd view it the same way we view Calvin and Luther's early writings that correspond to Catholic teaching, namely capturing some Oral Tradition that is now forgotten by modern Calvinist and Lutherans. See http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2010/06/how-john-calvin-made-me-a-catholic/ for one such example.Anil Wanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06223235205492924930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-69089321364875474972011-10-18T19:13:46.912-04:002011-10-18T19:13:46.912-04:00Wow...that's definitely food for thought! Once...Wow...that's definitely food for thought! Once this interpretation has been suggested, it's hard to see any other meaning...<br /><br />I have a question though...how exactly do we view the Talmud? As containing *some* divine revelation?Restless Pilgrimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16401126921440086739noreply@blogger.com