tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post5397395173160763772..comments2023-10-05T08:25:13.232-04:00Comments on Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: Dialogue on Lutheranism and Catholicism, Part Three: Soteriology and Miscellany (vs. Nathan Rinne)Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-26224378223270984062011-10-15T14:36:48.521-04:002011-10-15T14:36:48.521-04:00The revised version of the post was uploaded at 2:...The revised version of the post was uploaded at 2:30 PM EST, Sat. 10-15-11, with a long quotation from Adomnan, having to do with Romans 4:5, and another from Jimmy Akin, about Abraham's multiple justifications. I changed my opinion of Romans 4:5 (I originally stated that it had to do with initial justification).Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-41915305871622915272011-10-15T12:01:27.594-04:002011-10-15T12:01:27.594-04:00Glad to be of assistance.
I need to correct one ...Glad to be of assistance. <br /><br />I need to correct one thing I wrote, though. "to the one who does not work" actually consists of 3 words, not a single word as I said, focusing on the participle. The other two words are the Greek for "the" and "not." The dative case (idea of "to") is indicated by the case endings on "the" and "working." <br /><br />(Well, there's a fourth word, "de," meaning "and" or "but" between the "to" and the "not." However, it's not really part of the group of words translated as "to the one who does not work." It's put where it is because it's an "enclitic" word, which means it always has to be attached to another word and can never begin a sentence.) <br /> <br />At any rate, Paul's use of the definite pronoun suggests he has a definite person in mind (Abraham).Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-84004838174094923842011-10-15T11:29:41.852-04:002011-10-15T11:29:41.852-04:00Sounds right to me, Adomnan. You have persuaded me...Sounds right to me, Adomnan. You have persuaded me and I will modify the post accordingly, incorporating your remarks. Very good work, as always. Thanks!Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-16272076190304729492011-10-14T22:22:39.127-04:002011-10-14T22:22:39.127-04:00Dave, while I agree with you about almost everythi...Dave, while I agree with you about almost everything you've written in this post, I disagree with the following interpretation:<br /><br />"Romans 4:5 And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness."<br /><br />"Romans 4:5, we think, is asserting that 'It is not good works that lead to initial justification.'"<br /><br />I don't believe Romans 4:5 has this meaning.<br /><br />Rather, "the one who does not work but believes -- I would translate "believes" rather than "trusts" here -- him who justifies the ungodly" is not a generalization about all who believe, but refers specifically to Abraham. Paul sees Abraham at this point as typical of all Gentiles who believe, or perhaps as their exemplar or "father." However, Abraham is the sole person being spoken of. <br /><br />When Paul says that Abraham "does not work," he isn't saying that Abraham has not done good works. In fact, Abraham had been justified since he responded to God's self-revelation in Ur and had done many good works worthy of being reckoned as righteous. Romans 4:5 is not describing the moment of Abraham's initial justification, but one instance of a good work (an act of faith) that was reckoned as righteous. <br /><br />In context, "does not work" means "is not doing the works of the Law:" that is, Abraham has not yet been circumcised and is still a Gentile. He does not do works of Jewish Law, works of Torah. <br /><br />(By the way, in Greek the phrase "the one who does not work" is a single word, a participle that could be translated -- clumsily -- as "the non-working one," non-working not in the sense of not doing good works but in the sense of not doing works of Torah.) <br /><br />In the second part, "believes on him who justifies the ungodly," the word "ungodly," in context, does not mean wicked. Abraham was not wicked at this stage in his life. He was already justified. It means "Gentile." "Ungodly" in Greek is "asebes," a word that refers to the sphere of religious observance, and not to evil in a wider moral sense. Essentially, it means "non-observant" of the Jewish Law, or "impious" from the point of view of the Jewish Law (which would be the point of view of the Judaizers). We have no adequate word to render this concept in modern English, but "Gentile" comes closest. <br /><br />Paul is saying that someone -- Abraham in this case -- could be "impious" from the point of view of the Jewish Law (i.e., a Gentile), but righteous from the point of view of God. "Justifies the ungodly" thus amounts to "regards the Gentile Abraham as righteous." <br /><br />In sum, Paul is saying that God reckoned righteousness to Abraham (not for the first time!) WHILE HE WAS STILL A GENTILE. And this is the same point that Paul makes throughout Romans 3 and 4; i.e., Gentiles don't have to become Jews to be judged righteous by God. They only have to respond to God's revelation with faith, as Abraham did while still as Gentile.<br /><br />Or, to paraphrase all of Romans 4:5: "And to Abraham before he had done any works of Torah but still believed in Him who regards the Gentile as righteous, his belief was credited as an act of righteousness." <br /><br />I concur that a man who is not yet justified does not do good works meritorious of justification (unless one thinks of an act of faith as a good work, which it is in Paul's view, it seems to me, which is why he says that it is "reckoned as righteousness"). However, Romans 4:5 is not about good works and cannot, I think, be cited to bolster a teaching that can be established on other grounds.Adomnanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746373228302022418noreply@blogger.com