tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post5131713566580959462..comments2023-10-05T08:25:13.232-04:00Comments on Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: Biblical Evidence for the Nature of Saving Faith (Incl. Assent, Trust, Hope, Works, Obedience, and Sanctification)Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-81515114097943604002015-01-31T22:59:55.870-05:002015-01-31T22:59:55.870-05:00A Catholic can be assured of his salvation -- when...A Catholic can be assured of his salvation -- when you are right with God, having repented from your sins and avowed to sin no more, you can know with confidence that God is your friend. You can even know with confidence that God will give you the grace you need to overcome any test that you will face. But what you can't be assured of is that you will never fall away in the future. It is something you always should be on the watch for. "If you think that you are secure, take care that you do not fall." Even Paul was concerned that he would fall away before the end and be αδοκιμος, disapproved and damned.<br /><br />The thing is, God doesn't rape you. He gives you all the grace you need, without respect to whether you deserve it (you don't). He gives you the ability to cooperate with that grace--even that is not from you. But He does not force you to cooperate with it. If you decide you do not want to be united with God for eternity, God will honor your decision.<br /><br />The "perseverance of the saints" doctrine is false, but even if it weren't false, it would be useless. We see people fall away. The author of 1 Timothy (presumably Paul, but scholars dispute this, and it isn't relevant because either way the text is inspired) writes about those whose faith had shipwrecked, and he handed them over to Satan. The author of Hebrews (presumably *not* Paul) writes about those who had "once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come" (Hebrews 6:4-5) -- so, to be clear, people who were saved at one point -- who then "have fallen away," and who will be damned (αδοκιμος) and, to put a rather fine point on it, "finally burned."<br /><br />So, you could say, well those people were never saved in the first place. That's one way of looking at it -- let's suppose for a moment that it is true. They definitely thought that they were saved. Indeed, Paul has to instruct people in the final chapter of 2 Corinthians to test themselves to see if Jesus truly is in them -- that is, that one might think you are a Christian and not be. So the "perseverance of the saints" / "once saved, always saved" salesmen -- the Didache calls these kinds of people χριστέμπρός, or Christ-hustlers -- say on the one hand that your perseverance is assured, but on the other that you might think you are part of the Elect and actually not be (which will be evidenced later by your falling away).<br /><br />So, in fact, Catholics can be assured of their status as justified in the sight of God in a way that no Calvinist can. The Calvinist toils away, doing work upon work to convince himself that he is part of the Elect, never knowing for sure, all the while saying that works are not part of justification. Ironic, ain't it?John Chrysostomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06845842769360018122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-16388692618617474492015-01-31T22:48:24.958-05:002015-01-31T22:48:24.958-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.John Chrysostomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06845842769360018122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-71135935860286089592010-01-25T10:24:29.019-05:002010-01-25T10:24:29.019-05:00It does contradict Romans and Galatians and John, ...<i>It does contradict Romans and Galatians and John, because you can moralize your kids into good behavior and being religious, but never have salvation from sin.</i><br /><br />You are confused here. One reason why I don't find protestant apologists the least bit convincing is they constantly mis-state the Catholic position. Is it that hard to understand the difference between temporal and eternal censequences? Leaving asside whether it is true or not. Why can't protestants understand it? You are bright enough and you have been interacting with Catholics for years. Why do you still make elementary errors? Are you afraid to deal with the true Catholic position?<br /><br />One more time, temporal consequences of sin are given to us by God to make us holy. They do not effect our salvation. That is the very definition of temporal. Can a father reward and punish his children without disinheriting them? Of course he can. So why would that contradict Romans and Galatians?<br /><br /><i>But the problem with RCC is that you can loose your justification with God (acceptance, forgiveness, peace, relationship with the Father) and gain it back and keep up that "off again, on again" pattern that is foreign to the Bible.</i><br /><br />Is that the only problem? We were talking about "the system of penance, indulgences, treasury of merit, purgatory". Are they OK now? Is "perseverance of the saints" the key difference now? Most protestants deny that doctrine so I would find that interesting.Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16751516602395247675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-62577147293003550092010-01-25T06:48:45.525-05:002010-01-25T06:48:45.525-05:00Hi Ken again . Then you quoted Mathew 7:23 , great...Hi Ken again . Then you quoted Mathew 7:23 , great , so Ken,who were those which prophesied in Jesus`s name?unbelievers?who did cast out devils in Jesus`s name?unbelievers?who has done many wonderful works in Jesus`s name?unbelievers?<br />Are you telling us,that a buddhist did that?an atheist did that?a jew did that?a muslim did that?of course not,but a believer in Jesus , but they did not remain faithful to the end and did evil things and never repented. That is why they were rebuked,and refused...<br />So plz Ken check also Romans 11 and especially verses 21-24,where saint Paul is warning us to continue in his goodness otherwise we also shall be cut off.So again,if he is warning us to continue otherwise we will be cut off,it means as he said a few verses before,we were grafted in,but if we do not continue we will be cut off,he didnt say we were never as you claimed grafted in...So Judas is an example for you,and Simon magus is another,and Ananias and Saphira are another...etc.etc.<br />GBUMarounhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17891800446559973689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-14451908093727691342010-01-25T06:00:06.698-05:002010-01-25T06:00:06.698-05:00Ken said . The Galatians warnings as all other war...Ken said . The Galatians warnings as all other warnings in the NT show that if someone "claims" to know God or Jesus or says that they have faith, but there is not change or repentance or fruit in their life, then they were never truly converted or regenerated.<br />Not true Ken , people do change , and because they do , people could for some reason or another loose their faith . The same way they accepted Jesus , they could later on deny him , and that dosent mean that they were never truly regenerated as you claim . In fact ther weord final perseverance means just exactly that,to persevere to the very end,how could you persever or not if as you claimed,he was never truly a true believer?<br />The parable of the sower is more than enough to prove you wrong , and i am not going to explain it,otherwise you will accuse me of misunderstanding it,read what our Lord Jesus himself who is the truth and never lies explained it to the disciples. He didnt say that all those which did not persever never did believe as you claimed,but he explained that for different reasons,some did not remain faithful ...<br />And this is exactly what the catholic church teaches us ,that if we do fall into temptations,if we do sin and especially a mortal sin,then we must repent and confess our sins and do penance,otherwise,it means that those which do not,did not remain faithful to the end,and they have denied Jesus...<br />The you said . There must be evidence, fruit, good works, hatred for sin, etc. and that is what James 2 and all the warnings are talking about. They are not saying you really once had it and then can loose it; they are saying if you don't have change, you were never saved at all.<br />Here again,i must disagree with you,because they are saying exactly that,whoever you are which have faith but dont have works,then your faith is dead and your faith wont save you,James didnt say you do not have faith,but said exactly,and warned that faith without works is dead.And the church teaches us , that whenever we have faith but dont have fruits,dont have works,then our faith is dead,and that if we do sin,as i said especially a mortla sin,then i must repent,otherwise,i wont as Paul said,inherit the kingdom of God,because i was an evil doer...<br />So plz plz plz,stop criticising the church for saying and teaching the truth...<br />GBUMarounhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17891800446559973689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-35519082809810651102010-01-23T11:31:06.779-05:002010-01-23T11:31:06.779-05:00Maroun,
Yes, we believe in all the warnings of the...Maroun,<br />Yes, we believe in all the warnings of the NT.<br /><br />The warnings are saying that if there is no change or repentance or fruit in your life, you have no assurance and cannot claim "one saved, always saved" and yet live like "the devil". <br /><br />The Galatians warnings as all other warnings in the NT show that if someone "claims" to know God or Jesus or says that they have faith, but there is not change or repentance or fruit in their life, then they were never truly converted or regenerated. That is a different thing than the "on again", "off again" treadmill of sacramental RCC theology.<br /><br />"one saved, always saved" is a dangerous phrase thrown about by many Evangelicals. "Perseverance of the saints" is a better fuller teaching. That those who are truly regenerated by the Holy Spirit will persevere until they die. When they sin, they hate their sin and repent and reconcile.<br /><br />The "once saved, always saved" phrase gives people the false impression that if they say they were saved or walked the aisle or said a prayer, that that in itself justifies them. No. There must be evidence, fruit, good works, hatred for sin, etc. and that is what James 2 and all the warnings are talking about. They are not saying you really once had it and then can loose it; they are saying if you don't have change, you were never saved at all.<br /><br />Matthew 7:23 - "I never knew you"Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-37191287118129686932010-01-23T10:47:01.027-05:002010-01-23T10:47:01.027-05:00Ken said.But the problem with RCC is that you can ...Ken said.But the problem with RCC is that you can loose your justification with God (acceptance, forgiveness, peace, relationship with the Father) and gain it back and keep up that "off again, on again" pattern that is foreign to the Bible.<br />Ken,with all my respect , which bible are you talking about?where is your once saved always saved in the bible?<br />So you have never read all the warnings in the bible and especially in the new testament?there are sins which lead to death,and if we dont rise again by penance ,repentance and confessing those sins,then we will not inherit God`s kingdom,and what about the letter to Galatians,in which saint Paul warns everyone,that whoever lives in a certain way,that person will not inherit God`s kingdom,and i could go for hours showing you so many verses,more than a hundred just from the new testament...<br />So again,plz dont tell us that you cannot loose your salvation,because anyone one of us who does not remain with the grace of God faithful to the very end,then that person wont inherit God`s kingdom...<br />GBUMarounhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17891800446559973689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-82472937602707046682010-01-23T01:08:55.818-05:002010-01-23T01:08:55.818-05:00Hi Ken,
But the problem with RCC is that you can ...Hi Ken,<br /><br /><i>But the problem with RCC is that you can loose your justification with God ...</i><br /><br />But you never mention of the <i>cross</i>! Why? <br /><br />Why only the endless obsession with “assurance” of salvation and the avoidance of punishment? Have you never heard <i>Christ's</i> gospel?? <br /><br />And how different the (inspired) attitude of the ‘good thief’ to those who preach only the "I'm saved" gospel! <br /><br />Let us hear St. Luke:<br /><br />One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!" <br />But the other criminal rebuked him. "DON'T YOU FEAR GOD," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? WE AR PUNISHED JUSTLY, for we are getting WHAT OUR DEEDS DESERVE. But this man has done nothing wrong." <br />Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." <br />Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." - Luke 23:39-43<br /><br />“WE ARE PUNISHED JUSTLY, FOR WE ARE GETTING WHAT OUR DEEDS DESERVE.”<br /><br />Ponder those words, for <i>they</i> are the message of the cross, they are message of the Gospel! <br /><br />The Father’s understood them. The saintly, the orthodox, the right thinking Augustine understood them. <br /><br />Hear him:<br /><br />“I, whom by God’s grace you see before you as your bishop, came to this city as a young man, 6 many of you know that. I was looking for a Place to establish a monastery, and live there with my brothers. <br /><br />"I had in fact left behind al worldly hopes, and I did not wish to be what I could have been; 7 nor, however, was I seeking to be what I am now. I have chosen to be a nobody in the house of my God, rather than to dwell in the tents of sinners (Ps 84:10). <br /><br />"I separated myself from those who love the world; but I did not put myself on an equal footing with those who preside over Churches. 8 Nor did I choose a higher place at the banquet of my Lord, but a lower, insignificant one; and he was pleased to say to me, Go up higher (Lk 14:10). So much, though, did I dread the episcopate, that since I had already begun to acquire a reputation of some weight among the servants of God, I wouldn’t go near a place where I knew there was no bishop. 9 <br /><br />"I avoided this job, and <i>did everything I could to assure my salvation in a lowly position,</i> and not to incur the grave risks of a high one. But, as I said, a servant ought not to oppose his Lord. I came to this city to see a friend, whom I thought I could gain for God, to join us in the monastery. It seemed safe enough, because the place had a bishop. 10 I was caught, I was made a priest, 11 and by this grade eventually came to the episcopate. <br /><br />“I brought nothing with me; I came to this Church with only the clothes I was wearing at the time. And because what I was planning was to be in a monastery with the brothers, Father 12 Valerius of blessed memory, having learned of my purpose and desire, gave me that plot where the monastery now is. I began to gather together brothers of good will, my companions in poverty, having nothing just like me, and imitating me. Just as I had sold my slender poor man’s property 13 and distributed the proceeds to the poor, those who wished to stay with me, did the same, so that we might live on what we had in common. But what would be our really great and profitable common estate was God himself.” – <br /><br />- Sermon 355:2:2 <br /><br />The Works of Saint Augustine, A Translation for the 21st Century, III / 10, Sermons (341-400), Edmund Hill, O.P., tr., John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., 1995, New City Press, Hyde Park, New York, ISBN 1565480287<br /><br /><a href="http://books.google.com/books?q=%22I%2C%20whom%20by%20God%E2%80%99s%20grace%20you%20see%20before%20you%20as%20your%20bishop%22&hl=en&lr=&filter=0&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wp" rel="nofollow">p. 166</a><br /><br />See also:<br /><br /><a href="http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?s=3d2be0f379f7156659aab19ebdb25047&p=5316044&postcount=48" rel="nofollow">The Ten Good Works of The Thief</a><br /><br />Peace.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971132944684765473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-77364640481719137322010-01-22T13:31:49.886-05:002010-01-22T13:31:49.886-05:00Randy wrote:
It seems that way to you? It does not...Randy wrote:<br />It seems that way to you? It does not and has not to many generations of Catholics. Why can't God's grace include a system of temporal rewards and punishments to help us become holy? I do that with my kids. I try and make them holy by rewarding them when they behave well and punishing them when they behave badly. That is part of the grace I extend to them as a father. It does not contradict it.<br /><br /><i> It does contradict Romans and Galatians and John, because you can moralize your kids into good behavior and being religious, but never have salvation from sin.<br /><br />You can moralize children straight to hell.<br /><br />Obviously we believe in rewards and punishments also; and in sanctification. <br /><br />But the problem with RCC is that you can loose your justification with God (acceptance, forgiveness, peace, relationship with the Father) and gain it back and keep up that "off again, on again" pattern that is foreign to the Bible.</i>Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-13851175574214211922010-01-22T13:14:23.637-05:002010-01-22T13:14:23.637-05:00Officially, this is denied; but the system of pena...<i>Officially, this is denied; but the system of penance, indulgences, treasury of merit, purgatory, and not knowing for sure if one is justified, does seem contradictory to the official denial of Semi-Pelagianism.</i><br /><br />It seems that way to you? It does not and has not to many generations of Catholics. Why can't God's grace include a system of temporal rewards and punishments to help us become holy? I do that with my kids. I try and make them holy by rewarding them when they behave well and punishing them when they behave badly. That is part of the grace I extend to them as a father. It does not contradict it.<br /><br />So you seeing a contradiction is simple antiCatholic bias on your part. There is nothing objectively Semi-Pelagianism about these doctrines. It is simply an unwillingness to try and resolve diffiuclties. It is a choice.Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16751516602395247675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-19028902276749052272010-01-22T11:31:35.591-05:002010-01-22T11:31:35.591-05:00oops; I left out some important words.
Officially...oops; I left out some important words.<br /><br />Officially, this is denied; but the system of penance, indulgences, treasury of merit, purgatory, and not knowing for sure if one is justified, does seem contradictory to <b> <i>the official denial of</i></b> Semi-Pelagianism.Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-41609358389212592122010-01-22T08:39:39.522-05:002010-01-22T08:39:39.522-05:00Dave wrote:
The second thing is the relationship o...Dave wrote:<br />The second thing is the relationship of justification and sanctification. Protestants separate these, <br /><br /><i> No, not separation, but distinction; sanctification necessarily must happen, if one is truly justified, it is the necessary result and fruit and product and evidence of justification. <br /><br />"We are justified by faith alone, but that faith does not stay alone", it results in good works and fruits and change and deeper levels of repentance and growth.</i><br /><br />so that a man is justified and saved at one point in time, and then whatever good works he does have nothing to do with salvation, <br /><br /><i> Not true, they confirm and show and prove that one is truly saved. That is what James 2:14-26 teaches.</i><br /><br />and are placed under sanctification. Most Protestants teach that these are absolutely necessary as a sign of authentic justification, <br /><br /><i> That explanation is a little better.</i><br /><br />but they are separated from salvation itself.<br /><br /><i> How are they separated completely when they are the results and fruits and evidence of justification? They are not completely separated.</i>Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-20314861024070539452010-01-22T08:32:37.200-05:002010-01-22T08:32:37.200-05:00Catholics don't believe in works-salvation, or...Catholics don't believe in works-salvation, or the heresy of Pelagianism, <br /><br /><i> Not officially, but practically, it does. (with the emphasis on what you have to do to keep it up and be good enough and have to get through purgatory, there is not much emphasis on Paul's message in Galatians or Romans or "believe" in John.<br /><br />Adomnan, another RC was unashamed to say that the RC teaches that you "earn your salvation". <br /><br />Adomnan even denied that RCC taught that faith was "trusting" and said faith in RCC means something like "assenting to the doctrines and dogmas of the RCC creeds." <br /><br />The RCC does teach Semi-Pelagianism, (officially condemned at the Council of Orange in 529 AD; but came back into the church and officially sanctioned in different words at Trent, even though it denies that it is Semi-Pelagianism) in a round about way, through the sacramental system, and loosing one's state of grace by mortal sin after initial justification at infant baptism. Officially, this is denied; but the system of penance, indulgences, treasury of merit, purgatory, and not knowing for sure if one is justified, does seem contradictory to Semi-Pelagianism.</i><br /><br />whereby man can do anything to initiate his own salvation or even cooperate initially with God to begin the process. For both Catholics and Protestants, God begins the process by Himself. He moves us to accept His free gift of salvation.<br /><br /><i> In RC theology, God does not move all the way to have justification and peace with God as in Romans 5:1, so that if one dies at that moment, he would have assurance of heaven.<br /><br />That is why they have to call it "initial justification". It will fail. God is not powerful enough to bring people all the way to salvation. They cannot explain Romans 8:29-34 nor John 6:37-47 and 65. (in a consistent exegetically sound way).<br /><br />In their system, he only "strikes the first spark", so to speak, man is left to keep gathering kindling and blowing and blowing and blowing and adding wood -fuel (works, prayers to Mary, rituals, Eucharist, penance, confession, visiting relics, etc.) and then man can reject if he wants to, and because of sin, everyone always looses their baby baptism justification by mortal sin and so they have work and do the things and rituals in order to keep it up - confession, penance, Eucharist, good works, Hail Marys, prayers to saints, hoping that maybe they might become good to be accepted by God, and even that, it is after Purgatory, etc.<br /><br />There is no present (if I died right now) peace with God (Romans 5:1) in the RC system. Justification is a long process rather than the gift and acceptance of God at a point in time. </i>Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-72218959956636716802010-01-09T16:54:51.468-05:002010-01-09T16:54:51.468-05:00If you have further questions about any of this yo...If you have further questions about any of this you are wondering about, feel free!Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-5009164899721934702010-01-09T16:53:02.465-05:002010-01-09T16:53:02.465-05:00Hi Frank,
Thanks for reading and for your kind wo...Hi Frank,<br /><br />Thanks for reading and for your kind words.<br /><br />The subject of salvation or soteriology can get extremely involved but there are basic principles in play that differentiate Catholics and Protestants.<br /><br />Catholics don't believe in works-salvation, or the heresy of Pelagianism, whereby man can do anything to initiate his own salvation or even cooperate initially with God to begin the process. For both Catholics and Protestants, God begins the process by Himself. He moves us to accept His free gift of salvation.<br /><br />The second thing is the relationship of justification and sanctification. Protestants separate these, so that a man is justified and saved at one point in time, and then whatever good works he does have nothing to do with salvation, and are placed under sanctification. Most Protestants teach that these are absolutely necessary as a sign of authentic justification, but they are separated from salvation itself.<br /><br />Catholic theology disagrees with regard to this separation. We believe that justification and sanctification are together in a process. God moves our wills by grace and then we must cooperate with Him. Works show that this faith is active. What we call merit is "God crowning His own gifts," as St. Augustine put it.<br /><br />God gives us the ability to cooperate along with Him in the road of salvation and we do so and gain merit. God crowns His own gifts. <br /><br />Catholics also believe in predestination of those who are saved (but not those who are damned). A lot of people are unaware of that.<br /><br />That's the basic difference; it's fleshed out in dozens of papers of mine that you can consult if you wish.<br /><br />What I teach on this blog is, as far as I know, 100% in conformity with Catholic dogma. This is Catholic teaching. No one has ever shown otherwise (and my material is indirectly monitored in many ways (publishers, magazines, Coming Home Network) by bishops and priests and theologians. I back everything I contend up with official Catholic sources. <br /><br />So my statements on salvation issues are neither an "aberration" nor even "soft." They represent Catholic teaching: from the councils and popes and catechism. I back up the official teachings with a great deal of Scripture, because that is the source that we all agree upon as inspired and infallible.Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-80189084792308888622010-01-09T13:26:21.449-05:002010-01-09T13:26:21.449-05:00I wanted to let you know that I really enjoy your ...I wanted to let you know that I really enjoy your blog. I have yet to find a more comprehensive study on some of the topics you address. I am not a catholic, I try not to identify with any denomination but i currently attend and am involved in an Evangelical church. I do not like being put in a box with other evangelicals. I noticed that on your blog's comments you take a lot of irrelevant retorts to Catholicism. Please note, that is not my intent. My question is sincere and backed by extreme curiosity:<br />I noticed that you view man's "works" as essential to salvation. (My understanding is that all Catholics do)This gets interpreted by many evangelicals that Catholics believe they need to "earn" their way into heaven. <br /><br />Your view on the role of works seems "softer" then I presumed a catholic's view would be. (You previously wrote that salvation is a collaborative effort between God and man)Have I been brought up misunderstanding the catholic teachings in this arena, or are your beliefs an aberration?Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16523310763945821733noreply@blogger.com