tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post115195968966500561..comments2023-10-05T08:25:13.232-04:00Comments on Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: Luke 1:28 ("Full of Grace") and the Immaculate Conception: Linguistic and Exegetical ConsiderationsDave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-69062876514533552782015-09-12T05:32:08.094-04:002015-09-12T05:32:08.094-04:001. Grace saves us.
2. Grace gives us the power to...1. Grace saves us.<br /><br />2. Grace gives us the power to be holy and righteous and without sin.<br /><br />The only way out of the logic would be to deny one of the two premises, and hold either that grace does not save or that grace is not that power which enables one to be sinless and holy. It is highly unlikely that any Evangelical Protestant would take such a position, so the argument is a very strong one, because it proceeds upon their own premises.<br /><br />You assumed that grace has only two functions or realities.<br /><br />Catholicism theorized that the grace Mary received was the grace of salvation:<br /><br />The New Testament mentioned many kinds of graces:<br /><br />Grace of justification ( Romans 3:24)<br />Grace of righteousness (Romans 5:17)<br />Grace of salvation (Romans 5:17)<br />Grace of disposition (Romans 12:6, Ephesians 4:7)<br />Grace of provision ( 2 Corinthians 9:8)<br /><br />According to the immediate context of Luke 1:28, Mary cannot have received the grace of salvation in the sense of prevention in contracting the original sin because in Luke 1:47, Mary herself said that God is her Savior in the context of biblical soteriology which is Christ-centered.That is, the Scriptures as a whole speak of salvation of all who inherited the original sin by the "one obedience" of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:12, 19).If Mary was talking about her Immaculate Conception in Luke 1:47, then, she must be excluded from the people whom Christ saved by his obedience (Romans 5:19) which is the death on the cross! (Philippians 2:8).<br /><br />Catholics teach that Mary was saved from the inheritance of sin.Hence, she was not included in the sacrifice Jesus Christ offered at the cross for Jesus' sacrifice was clearly only for those who were in the Adam, those whore were tainted with the original sin.<br /><br />Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned. ~ Romans 5:12<br /><br />For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. ~ Romans 5:19<br /><br />Note also that Christians could receive ALL GRACES according to 2 Corinthians 9:8. Was God talking about making everyone Immaculate Conception here? Could God make everyone conceived without sin? 2 Corinthians 9:8 emphatically says yes based on Catholic interpretation of Luke 1:28's kecharitomene.<br /><br />When was this grace given to Mary? <br /><br />The rendering "full of grace" (present tense) of the Latin Vulgate and the Douay-Rheims does not express the original Greek which is perfect tense.<br /><br />A Perfect Participle only means that "something that occurred in the past is still occurring up to the present." <br /><br />The Greek word kecharitomene literally means "a female who was given grace that endures up to the present time."<br /><br />Catholicism theorized that Mary was given the grace of holiness at her conception. There is no scriptural warrant for this. It's only an imagination.<br /><br />There you go, now answer my question:<br /><br />What kind of grace Mary was given in Luke 1:28? <br /><br />When did God give Mary that grace?<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09977518242128139147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-42842245216971852552015-08-18T11:28:26.664-04:002015-08-18T11:28:26.664-04:00If you actually deal directly with the arguments I...If you actually deal directly with the arguments I gave in the paper, then I'll answer your questions, but not till then.Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-62778612277110392562015-08-18T06:11:33.227-04:002015-08-18T06:11:33.227-04:00The Greek word κεχαριτωμένη does NOT say that Mary...The Greek word κεχαριτωμένη does NOT say that Mary was "conceived without sin." In fact, κεχαριτωμένη does NOT even say what 'kind' of grace Mary was given! The immaculate conception is a doctrine based upon speculations, assumptions and not biblical exegesis.<br /><br />Roman Catholicism teaches that Mary was without any sin (from conception onwards) and the Greek word “Κεχαριτωμένη” is claimed to be its biblical proof.<br /><br />Is this what the word really means?<br /><br />Let us study the Greek word in detail:<br /><br />Greek word:<br /><br />Κεχαριτωμένη<br /><br />Transliteration:<br /><br />Kecharitomene.<br /><br />Translation:<br /><br />Literally,” You, who have been graced” (You that are highly favored, KJV)<br /><br />English:<br /><br />You (Second Person Singular) <br />Have (present tense) <br />Been (past participle of “to be”) <br />Graced (past participle of “to grace”).<br /><br />Greek:<br /><br />KE – perfect tense (prior event/occurrence/happening that is still existing/occurring or happening now)<br />CHARITO – grace; a gift, something that is free or unmerited<br />MENE – a female receiver, not giver <br /><br />The Latin translation “gratia plena” (full of grace, as found in Dhouay-Rheims) is NOT a literal translation from the Greek.<br /><br />English translation of the Latin phrase “gratia plena” (Latin Vulgate):<br /><br />Full of grace (noun)<br /><br />Literal English translation of the Greek word “kecharitomene”:<br /><br />You who have been graced (verb)<br /><br />The Old Latin MSS (A.D. 150-200) had a literal translation of the Greek word <br /><br />“kecharitomene”:<br /><br />Grafitificata (noun) <br /><br />English translation of the Latin phrase “grafitificata” (Vetus Latina):<br /><br />You who have been graced (verb)<br /><br />Questions to Dave Armstrong,<br /><br />What kind of grace Mary was given in Luke 1:28? <br /><br />When did God give Mary that grace?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09977518242128139147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-45485420419837771142011-10-24T11:11:50.988-04:002011-10-24T11:11:50.988-04:00Stuart
Your comment about Mary's state of grac...Stuart<br />Your comment about Mary's state of grace referring exclusively to her "joyous role of bearing Christ" does not hold water!<br />The word Kecharitomene, is as has been stated, the Perfect Participle, referring to a current, enduring state of Grace stemming from a past event. The Angel answers Mary's question of "How can this be" by stating that the "spirit of the Lord will overshadow you" - (not has overshadowed you) i.e. the conception will take place in the (near) future. Therefore if that is the source of her state of Grace, then her state of grace would similarly be in a form of the Future tense.AnRuaRihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12909836856326372084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-62430910296101571942009-09-29T23:41:38.838-04:002009-09-29T23:41:38.838-04:00I have just read a portion of your post, so I cann...I have just read a portion of your post, so I cannot comment on everything. However, your conclusions drawn from your proposals regarding Grace are based on a logical fallacy. <br /><br />Protestants do believe that grace is the means by which sin is forgiven and one is enabled to refrain from sin. However, grace is not reduced to ONLY these characteristics as your proposition assumes. <br /><br />Simply defined, grace is anything given by God which one does not merit. Therefore, the grace bestowed upon Mary was specifically referring to Mary's joyous role of bearing Christ. <br /><br />Not only does this understanding of grace more clearly unify the use of the term throughout scripture, it also aids in a more simple understanding of the term within the passage. Moreover, it makes much more sense contextually. That is, rather than having to go through logical gymnastics to apply a preexisting theology to the passage, the context of the word in the passage clearly speaks for itself.Stuart Hunthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13332325662184322597noreply@blogger.com