tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post114962613736285067..comments2023-10-05T08:25:13.232-04:00Comments on Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: Martin Luther's Mariology (Particularly the Immaculate Conception)Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-25235640809768147572012-07-18T11:10:28.279-04:002012-07-18T11:10:28.279-04:00the most natural reading of the verse is that God ...<i>the most natural reading of the verse is that God will never give the glory that is due Him to another</i><br /><br />Exactly! You hit the nail on the head. Since we are not saying in the first place that Mary deserves the honor or worship due to God only, this whole issue is a non sequitur.<br /><br />The glory that God shares is obviously of a lesser variety than the adoration and worship due to Him alone.<br /><br />The Bible teaches veneration of saints and holy people, and who is more holy and worthy of honor than the Mother of God the Son? I give the biblical evidences for same in my books and papers on the topic.<br /><br />The problem with Protestants is that they can't handle any honor given to anyone except for God. But that is not a biblical worldview. The biblical perspective is that honor of God's creatures always goes back to Him, just as praise of a painting is really praise of the artist, not of what was constructed out of oil and canvas. Mary is who she is ENTIRELY due to God's grace. When we venerate her we are worshiping God's marvelous work that He did through her: even including her in the very Incarnation.<br /><br />Until this is grasped, Protestants will never comprehend the historic Christian practice of veneration of the saints.<br /><br />But even Protestants put little statues of Mary up (by the millions) at Christmastime. Put away those idols!Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-29726390131436073272012-07-18T01:47:22.491-04:002012-07-18T01:47:22.491-04:00Part two .
I will also quote to you from the new ...Part two .<br /><br />I will also quote to you from the new advent encyclopedia : Thus far we have spoken of the worship given directly to God as the infinitely perfect Being. It is clear that adoration in this sense can be offered to no finite object. Still, the impulse that leads us to worship God's perfection in itself will move us also to venerate the traces and bestowals of that perfection as it appears conspicuously in saintly men and women. Even to inanimate objects, which for one reason or another strikingly recall the excellence, majesty, love, or mercy of God, we naturally pay some measure of reverence. The goodness which these creatures possess by participation or association is a reflection of God's goodness; by honouring them in the proper way we offer tribute to the Giver of all good. He is the ultimate end of our worship in such cases as He is the source of the derived perfection which called it forth. But, as was intimated above, whenever the immediate object of our veneration is a creature of this sort, the mode of worship which we exhibit towards it is fundamentally different from the worship which belongs to God alone. Latria, as we have already said, is the name of this latter worship; and for the secondary kind, evoked by saints or angels, we use the term dulia. The Blessed Virgin, as manifesting in a sublimer manner than any other creature the goodness of God, deserves from us a higher recognition and deeper veneration than any other of the saints; and this peculiar cultus due to her because of her unique position in the Divine economy, is designated in theology hyperdulia, that is dulia in an eminent degree. It is unfortunate that neither our own language nor the Latin possesses in its terminology the precision of the Greek. The word latria is never applied in any other sense than that of the incommunicable adoration which is due to God alone. But in English the words adore and worship are still sometimes used, and in the past were commonly so used, to mean also inferior species of religious veneration and even to express admiration or affection for persons living upon the earth. So David "adored" Jonathan. In like manner Miphiboseth "fell on his face and worshipped" David (2 Samuel 9:6). Tennyson says that Enid in her true heart, adored the queen. Those who perforce adopted these modes of expression understood perfectly well what was meant by them and were in no danger of thereby encroaching upon the rights of the Divinity. It is hardly needful to remark that Catholics, too, even the most unlearned, are in no peril of confounding the adoration due to God with the religious honour given to any finite creature even when the word worship, owing to the poverty of our language, is applied to both. The Seventh General Council, in 757, puts the matter in a few words when it says that "true latria is to be given to God alone"; and the Council of Trent (Sess. XXV) makes clear the difference between invocation of saints and idolatry.<br /><br />By the way Andrew . What do you understand from this verse please ? (Rom.8:30 ) And those whom he predestined, he also called; and those whom he called, he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.<br />And also (acts 28:10 ) They honored us in many ways, and when we were going to sail, they supplied us with everything we needed.<br />And also (1 Cor.12:26 ) And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.<br />I will stop now hoping that with the few things which i gave , you will understand the difference between the worship and adoration which we give to God alone , and the respect , honour and veneration which we give to his saints , angels and the blessed virgin Mary .<br />GBUMarounhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17891800446559973689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-53697943742276214472012-07-18T01:46:07.049-04:002012-07-18T01:46:07.049-04:00Andrew . To begin with , who told you that we wors...Andrew . To begin with , who told you that we worship the blessed virgin Mary , or angels , or saints or anything created ? if you dont know the difference between worshiping God and the veneration of the saints , i suggest that you check the new advent encyclopedia :<br />There are several degrees of this worship:if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.So when we speak of latria it`s called adoration , this adoration is of course given to God alone .<br />When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration .<br />As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia.<br />I will continue in part two .Marounhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17891800446559973689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-970861244160781372012-07-17T19:00:53.395-04:002012-07-17T19:00:53.395-04:00Well, let me clarify what I meant my "share H...Well, let me clarify what I meant my "share His glory", and I think you will see my point.<br /><br />It is clear from the Scriptures you have provided (http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2009/12/biblical-evidence-for-god-sharing-his.html) that God allows created beings to:<br /><br /><b>1. Share / obtain / partake in His glory</b> (Romans 5:2, "To this he called you... so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ", "...a partaker in the glory that is to be revealed", "become partakers of the divine nature")<br /><b>2. Exult in His glory</b> ("the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory")<br /><b>3. Represent His glory</b> ("the glory of the LORD has risen upon you... his glory will be seen upon you")<br /><b>4. Be overshadowed by His glory</b> ("the glory of the God of Israel was over them")<br /><b>5. Seek His glory</b> ("those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory")<br /><b>6. Enjoy His glory</b> ("the riches of His glory")<br />7. Be <b>called to / called into</b> His glory ("God, who calls you into his own kingdom and glory", "...who called us to his own glory and excellence")<br /><b>8. Be blessed by His glory</b> ("you are blessed, because the spirit of glory and of God rests upon you")<br /><br />(I omitted several verses because they seemed to be talking about God giving human beings glory in a more general sense, e.g. God giving Nebuchadnezzar kingly glory while on the earth. Since we're talking about the praying to and seeking the intercession of a saint (Mary), these didn't seem to apply.<br /><br />Yet none of these contradict what God says in Isaiah 42, that He will "never <b>give [His] glory</b> to another". Throughout the book, God continually speaks through Isaiah to pronounce judgment on the nation of Judah for their idolatry (leading up to the Babylonian captivity). In context, then, the most natural reading of the verse is that God will never give the glory <i>that is due Him</i> to another (i.e. He will never let an idol be worshipped the way He deserves to be worshipped). The verse is intended to condemn the Jews for praying to and seeking the intercession of other gods (idols) rather than Yahweh. This same principle is seen in the first part of the Decalogue:<br /><br />"You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God..."<br /><br />The only reference I could find of His glory ever being "given" to anyone is John 17:22, where Jesus says, "The glory which Thou hast given Me I have given to them, that they may be one even as We are one." Yet in context, if Jesus means by this that saints are to be venerated, then <i>all</i> believers are to be venerated, since He precedes his statement with, "My prayer is not for [the apostles] alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message." And certainly He can't mean that He gives all of the glory He deserves <i>as God</i> to every believer--that would make everyone who believes in Christ worthy of the same worship as the Trinity! So logically, doesn't this fall into the category of us "sharing (in)" His glory as well?<br /><br />It still just seems too out-of-character to me that God would condone the veneration of any created thing given how jealous He is to be worshipped above everything else--even if Mary was sinless. I think the Reformers would agree with me on this point.Andrew Christensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13663491872439718516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-16658478356007044722012-07-17T12:57:19.001-04:002012-07-17T12:57:19.001-04:00God shares His glory all over the place in Scriptu...God shares His glory all over the place in Scripture. See my paper:<br /><br />http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2009/12/biblical-evidence-for-god-sharing-his.html <br /><br />See also my Mary and Communion of Saints web pages for numerous arguments about veneration of the saints; also, my two books on those topics:<br /><br />http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/11/mary-blessed-virgin-index-page.html<br /><br />http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/11/saints-purgatory-penance-index-page.html<br /><br />http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2012/02/books-by-dave-armstrong-biblical.html <br /><br />http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2010/10/books-by-dave-armstrong-catholic-mary.htmlDave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-25419357509129567972012-07-17T12:52:21.788-04:002012-07-17T12:52:21.788-04:00I cannot reconcile veneration of Mary with Isaiah ...I cannot reconcile veneration of Mary with Isaiah 42. Is not the mystery of this passage, hidden from the Jews, that God promises to share His glory with a man, the Suffering Servant? Yet He says, “I am the Lord; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols." (vs. 8) If God is so jealous for His rightful glory, why would he put Mary on a pedestal to be venerated? Jesus is the only man deserving of veneration, because He Himself is uncreated God in created flesh. Even the holy angel of Revelation 22, who delivers the message to the apostle John--sinless in every way, yet created--rebukes any worship directed at himself: “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!” (in Revelation 22:8)Andrew Christensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13663491872439718516noreply@blogger.com