tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post1059447941026950412..comments2023-10-05T08:25:13.232-04:00Comments on Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: Dialogue on the Relationship of Reason, Logic, and Supernatural Faith, with a Christian "Pluralist" (i.e., Theological Liberal)Dave Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-31427520353470929512010-01-22T18:46:51.392-05:002010-01-22T18:46:51.392-05:00Hi Johannes,
That is very interesting stuff; than...Hi Johannes,<br /><br />That is very interesting stuff; thanks. I do generic Christian apologetics as well as specifically Catholic stuff. Three of my 19 books are of that nature.Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-34333542231655650332010-01-22T17:35:16.443-05:002010-01-22T17:35:16.443-05:00Hi Dave. Although, at least as far as I can see, ...Hi Dave. Although, at least as far as I can see, you are chiefly an apologist of Catholic faith over other Christian denominations, I thought you might find interesting this short piece I've just written showing that the latest measured value of a fundamental physical constant has a straightforward Christian mystical interpretation:<br /><br />http://defeyrazon.blogspot.com/<br /><br />(The name of the blog is Spanish, but its contents are in English.)Johanneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05371418313799513738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-51454594224837819202010-01-17T10:10:23.866-05:002010-01-17T10:10:23.866-05:00Lorainne Boettner started this list
http://www.ca...Lorainne Boettner started this list<br /><br />http://www.catholic.com/library/Catholic_Inventions.aspMartinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13750763393428404220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-52769286870165250982010-01-17T01:59:29.258-05:002010-01-17T01:59:29.258-05:00Thanks for reading twice, Martin! My sympathies, t...Thanks for reading twice, Martin! My sympathies, though . . . LOLDave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-82781174733738130752010-01-17T00:07:13.814-05:002010-01-17T00:07:13.814-05:00Martin,
Sorry about that - Frank gave me the impre...Martin,<br />Sorry about that - Frank gave me the impression that these dates and wordings were straight out of a book written by 2 Roman Catholic Jesuits.<br /><br />Now, Frank is admitting that "worship of Mary" is his wording. <br /><br />Frank,<br />To be fair to the RC side of things, you need to write that list over with more careful wording.<br /><br />The Marian practices and dogmas do have the appearance of idolatry and worship (to us), but the official RC position is that they do not give "latria" (worship, adoration) to Mary. Only God gets that. They are still unBiblical and not right; bowing down in front of statues of her and praying to her and exalting her, etc.<br /><br />They claim that they can protect the subjective experience of them being able to distinquish between latria and dulia and hyper-dulia. (in prayer and devotion)<br /><br />But they do pray to her, praise her, and exalt her too much. They call it "hyper-dulia". Dulia is veneration and honor and service, but not latria (worship, adoration)<br /><br />How many other of those points/dates did you change the wording of the Jesuits?Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-18138868419392478642010-01-16T22:41:48.838-05:002010-01-16T22:41:48.838-05:00DA, this is my second read though these posts and ...DA, this is my second read though these posts and they are excelllent again.<br /><br />Frank, your list is from an anti-catholic screed "Whore of Babylon" or some such. Most of the points are simply stupid. I haven't the time to find one of the posts debunking it.<br /><br />Ken, shame on you. once you were an honest truth seeker now you jump on any anti-cat post you can find.Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13750763393428404220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-55880540187555248772010-01-16T21:42:42.192-05:002010-01-16T21:42:42.192-05:00Also, please note: I am not trying to defame Catho...Also, please note: I am not trying to defame Catholicism at all. There are some religions that compared to the Bible are proven false because they warp the salvation message. Catholicism is not one of those. Although I may not agree with everything they hold as true (no denomination is perfect) I respect many facets of that denomination. For instance, I was raised in an Evangelical Church, and Evangelicals proffess to be vehemently pro-life. However it is the Catholic church (often alone) that speaks up about abortion. They put their money where their mouth is... a trait I wish more Christians shared. They are able to do that because they hold to their fundementals strictly... another trait I wish more Christians shared.Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16523310763945821733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-81652313595793769262010-01-16T21:32:37.530-05:002010-01-16T21:32:37.530-05:00i think boniface is the first to recieve that part...i think boniface is the first to recieve that particular title although there have been other previous "pope like" figures. dave would be able to tell you more about that. as for "worship" please do keep in mind that that is MY term. i did not know another cincise way of explaining those situations. in any case, that is when the church placed significant importance, or started paracticing a particular thing. check out the book i listed, i enjoyed reading it.Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16523310763945821733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-22597739063028087962010-01-16T20:54:45.941-05:002010-01-16T20:54:45.941-05:00607 Boniface III made first pope
How is this est...607 Boniface III made first pope<br /><br /><br />How is this established as historical fact?<br /><br />Some say Leo (440 AD); others say Gregory (601 AD)<br /><br /> 709 Kissing the pope’s feet<br /><br />sick, gross, smelly,idolatrous, and unbiblical - Peter, Paul, and John (by writing about his mistake) said, "don't do that kind of appearance of idolatry!"<br /><br />Acts 10:25-26<br /><br />Acts 14:11-15<br /><br />Revelation 19:10<br /><br />Rev. 22:8-9Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-79755779521123299942010-01-16T20:46:40.764-05:002010-01-16T20:46:40.764-05:00S. J. after the name, means "Society of Jesus...S. J. after the name, means "Society of Jesus" or Jesuits.<br /><br />I found it on line. Still learning.Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-37137729565251176692010-01-16T20:43:19.353-05:002010-01-16T20:43:19.353-05:00Frank makes an interesting quote list of dates and...Frank makes an interesting quote list of dates and innovations in doctrines from a book written by Roman Catholics ! <br /><br />Interesting that the list of things Protestants object to starts at<br />300 AD - prayers for the dead<br /><br />And these two Roman Catholic Jesuits ( I think that is what J.S. means; anyone tell us what that means)<br /><br />They admit that they started "worshiping Mary" !!!! in 431<br />431 Worship of Mary begun<br /><br />I thought the RCs said, "We don't worship Mary!"Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-74020215858032650232010-01-16T20:07:12.640-05:002010-01-16T20:07:12.640-05:00I see what you are saying. I was reading today (in...I see what you are saying. I was reading today (in doing my research) Galations 2 about Peter getting put in his place. Im glad you brought that up, because I wanted to but feared offending anyone- that was not my intention. I was just sharing my thoughts in general on the subject. I am still getting used to Dave's writing because it goes against everything I have ever been taught the Catholic Church was about. He is real, down to earth, and into God. I live in a borough that was made by Irish and Italian immigrants, and consequently, Catholicism is a major issue here. No matter what a person's religion is, more often then not, either that person, or their parents were raised catholic. Where the rubber meets the road, I believe that following Christ is what gets a man to heaven, and the nuances of different denominations serve as distractions and divide a people that should be united. The main point of my rebuttal was not to discredit Catholicism, but to promote my belief that all these denominations are flawed, because they are based on man. Man can only reach his "perfect doctrine" if its an issue between that individual and God.Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16523310763945821733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-57557927069644468212010-01-16T20:02:49.971-05:002010-01-16T20:02:49.971-05:00thank you for checking out that intro i wrote. i a...<i>thank you for checking out that intro i wrote. i am going to take a look at the links you provided me of your essays.</i><br /><br />You're welcome. <br /><br /><i>do you know of any books that could be helpful for me in pursuing that topic?</i><br /><br />Can't think of any at the moment.<br /><br />As I have mentioned, I don't have the time to get into additional huge discussions on large and lumpy topics. I have to reserve time for Jason Engwer and David Waltz: against and for whom I wrote my recent four-part reply.<br /><br />Most likely others will chime in, though.Dave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-28761255601158367832010-01-16T19:51:15.306-05:002010-01-16T19:51:15.306-05:00Thanks for sharing this Frank. You must understand...Thanks for sharing this Frank. You must understand exactly what the Catholic church claims. She has never claimed her members are perfect. Che has never even claimed here popes were perfect. Peter made enough mistakes to prevent that idea from going anywhere! What she does say is the church can eventually get things right. Her first word on a subject might not be right but her last word will. If she declares something to be settled then it is settled correctly. Many of the points you bring up do not fall into this category.<br /><br />Then there is the matter that the true doctrine should not change. That is not true. Not only can she entertain false opinions about theology for a long time she can also hold incomplete true doctrines. The Holy Spirit can lead her to more complete true doctrines as time goes on. <br /><br />Look at scripture. The early church understood scripture as something profitable to study. They used it in liturgy. But which books are in the cannon and what exactly do we believe about them. Those things were clarified later. Incomplete truth was replaced with fuller truth.<br /><br />As you point out, nobody teaches the same doctrines century after century. It is human to want to understand something more completely that has ever been understood before. We are not made to stand still. We are made to move forward. Catholicism allows us to do that without losing our way.Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16751516602395247675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-77225936916482418352010-01-16T19:31:53.941-05:002010-01-16T19:31:53.941-05:00lol also, sorry for writing so much.
just wanted t...lol also, sorry for writing so much.<br />just wanted to say thank you for checking out that intro i wrote. i am going to take a look at the links you provided me of your essays. do you know of any books that could be helpful for me in pursuing that topic?Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16523310763945821733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-15539236544564612112010-01-16T19:28:06.175-05:002010-01-16T19:28:06.175-05:00part 3
Either God is powerful enough to present d...part 3<br /><br />Either God is powerful enough to present different things to different people according to their understanding, or truth is bound to those privileged and educated enough to be fully indoctrinated in the one truth. To declare allegiance to a God of the privileged and educated is counterintuitive to the way Christ has explained His intentions through the gospels. Mathew 9:11-13 says that it’s the sick and confused that Jesus came to minister to. Christ came to the world to save us. He shook the system up and revolutionized the way we look at life. In my opinion, He came to this earth to deliver us, and to battle two different things; sin and religion. Religion can be distracting at times. In Jesus’ day the Pharisees were so concerned with legalities and tradition that they were completely oblivious to the fact that the answer to all of their Old Testament Prophecies was walking and teaching right in front of them! Anyone willing to put the research into their writing the way you and some of your readers do is obviously extremely passionate about their faith. It is my prayer that none of us will get to a point in life where our passion for Jesus and the things of God are compromised by the parameters of religion or anything else seeking to quench the fire that God ignited inside of us. Personally, I hope that the momentum my walk with Christ generates is never used against me to push me away from where God wants me.<br /><br />FrankFrankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16523310763945821733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-71029500568993925732010-01-16T19:27:55.622-05:002010-01-16T19:27:55.622-05:00Part 2
This list was composed from various Cathol...Part 2<br /><br />This list was composed from various Catholic Church history books written by Catholics. (The principal book I used was “The Teaching of the Catholic Church” by Josef Neuner, S.J. and Heinrich Roos, S.J.) The numbers represent the year these changes were introduced.<br /><br /><br />· 300 Prayers for the dead<br />· 300 Making the sign of the cross<br />· 375 Worship of saints and angels<br />· 394 Mass first instituted<br />· 431 Worship of Mary begun<br />· 500 Priests started dressing differently<br />· 526 Extreme Unction (anointing the sick)<br />· 593 Doctrine of Purgatory introduced<br />· 600 Worship service in Latin<br />· 600 Prayers directed to Mary<br />· 607 Boniface III made first pope<br />· 709 Kissing the pope’s feet<br />· 786 Worshipping of images and relics<br />· 850 Use of holy water begun<br />· 995 Canonization of dead saints<br />· 998 Fasting on Fridays and during lent<br />· 1079 Celibacy of priesthood<br />· 1090 Prayer beads<br />· 1184 The inquisition (court to discover and punish heretics)<br />· 1190 Sale of indulgences<br />· 1215 Transubstantiation<br />· 1220 Adoration of wafer<br />· 1229 Bible forbidden to laymen<br />· 1414 Cup forbidden to people at communion<br />· 1439 Doctrine of seven sacraments<br />· 1439 Doctrine of purgatory decreed<br />· 1508 The Ava Maria approved<br />· 1534 Jesuit order founded<br />· 1545 Tradition granted equal authority with the Bible<br />· 1546 Apocryphal books put into Bible<br />· 1854 Immaculate Conception of Mary<br />· 1864 Syllabus of error proclaimed<br />· 1870 Infallibility of pope declared<br />· 1930 Public schools condemned<br />· 1950 Assumption of the virgin Mary (taken to heaven)<br />· 1965 Mary proclaimed mother of the church<br /><br />I am in no way trying to conduct an assault on the Catholic Church. Doctrinally, there are a few issues I would tend to disagree with (as with any other denomination) but I respect the Catholic Church a lot more than other brands of Christianity because of their tendency to cling to their fundamental roots. Personally, I choose not to affiliate with a denomination, because I would like people to see me as I am (a twenty-three year old doing everything possible to chase after Christ and study His Word) without being held accountable for other people’s dogmas and actions that I neither condone nor support. Does this mean that because I am not under the Catholic Church that I err, and no matter how hard I try or how much I sacrifice because of my love for Jesus that I am working on my own, out from under His will? What about the countless missionaries who toil their entire lives (some with no religious affiliation) who are sometimes speared, beheaded, and poisoned for trying to show others Jesus’ love? Some return to their homes with crazy stories of miracles and testimonies of things Jesus did for them. Why would God perform miracles and actively support people who claim to be doing His will, but really are not because they are delusional and affiliated with the wrong denomination? Ok, so maybe they are lying, but I am extremely scared to rush to that assumption condemning all the acts of salvation or all the miracles that people experienced apart from the Catholic Church.Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16523310763945821733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6422857.post-43488158582995751512010-01-16T19:27:12.245-05:002010-01-16T19:27:12.245-05:00Sorry I am a little behind on my reading. But here...Sorry I am a little behind on my reading. But here is my two cents.<br /><br />Rebuttal to the indefectibility of the catholic church<br /><br />“OT Messianic prophecies refer to an unending covenant between God and His people (by extension the Church, led by Jesus Christ) and the unvanquishable Kingdom of Christ:”<br /><br />God’s People are referred to as His Church, and He will go to great lengths to defend and protect His people. Agreed. However to state that this implies doctrinal perfection in any church denomination would be robbing mankind of his freewill. Human nature is corrupt and unchanging. While man (through Christ) can be sanctified, his human nature is something that must be squelched and battled every single day. Isaiah 64:6 states that at man’s holiest, we are but filthy rags. When looking at church history, it is hard to come to a conclusion that God directs the Church’s motives and endeavors. There have been priests convicted of child molestation, homosexual pastors invited to pulpits, crusades, and all kinds of other obscenities conducted under the name of Christ. If the notion that God manages and conducts a doctrinally perfect group of people, that would immediately alienate and possibly even condemn every denomination and sect of Christianity with the exception of one. So which one would that be? (You propose Catholicism.) The problem is that man is decrepit, and everywhere he travels his ugly footprints mar the earth. There is no blameless religious establishment. Evangelicalism is apathetic, and increasingly banal, just like all the other related denominations. Catholicism has its issues too.<br /><br />The other issue about the notion of a doctrinally perfect denomination that contradicts with the character of Christ, is that fact that Christ is unchanging. Hebrews 13:8 says that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He is not bound by time, and his attributes and personality have never wavered. If there were such a thing as a “chosen denomination,” then one would assume that the doctrine of those churches would be unchanging, just like the God that directs them. The Problem is, that no such church exists. You wrote (in red responding to what was written in blue):<br /><br />“The additional element is what we call indefectibility. It is a root assumption of apostolic succession: that the truth will never be lost; it will always be preserved.<br /><br />(I agree that with the principle “God’s truth will never be lost and will always be preserved.” I think the discrepancy I have, whose responsibility it is to preserve that truth, is a major one. You suggest that man can uphold and preserve that truth. (through God.) I feel that this idea elevates man to a level that he cannot possibly ascend to. II Timothy 3:16 states that all scripture is inspired by God, and John 2:27 clearly says that since God has given us the gift of the Holy Spirit, “you do not need anyone to teach you.” He is not discrediting pastors, popes, ministers, and teachers, but telling us that once God put His Word in print, and bestowed us with the Holy Spirit, we do not need to rely on man {or institutions of man} to tell us what is right or wrong.)<br /><br />A church that's doctrinally correct today could be doctrinally incorrect fifty years from now.<br /><br />That is usually the case in Protestantism, yes; WHILE CATHOLIC DOCTRINE REMAINS THE SAME. So Jason's analysis surely applies to Protestants on a large scale.”<br /><br />Essentially, you propose that the Catholic Church can withstand the scrutiny of time, but I do not see that it does. None of the Christian religions can say that their doctrine has not changed since Christ walked the earth.Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16523310763945821733noreply@blogger.com