Tuesday, June 08, 2010

"Turretinfan" Calls a Statue of Our Lord Jesus an "Idol" While His Buddy Bishop James White Praises the Statues of Calvin, Farel, Beza, and Knox

I'm not kidding folks, TAO (always affectionately known in these quarters as "The Anonymous One") actually did this. Reporting on a story about a statue of Christ being struck by lightning and collapsing, he put up a post entitled "Gideon Would be Pleased . . . " that is (he continues in his post), "... by this report of God's destruction of an idol." He classifies this under the blog category of "Idolatry."

A certain extreme faction of Reformed Protestants are iconoclasts. In an earlier article (2-22-10) our illustrious polemicist disagreed with the proposition that "the rejection of icons of Christ is a defect in Christology" and agreed with the notion that "icons inherently involve an implicit Nestorianism (or perhaps Monophysitism)."

Since TAO is so concerned about idolatry and statues, perhaps he should also expose the serious idolatry (i.e., consistently applying his own opinions) of his friend and idol, Bishop James White, who proudly displayed ("Reformation Wall" -- 6-19-07) the photograph below of idols (?) Calvin, Farel, Beza, and Knox (so-called "reformers" all) from Geneva.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FOIrYyQawGI/TBgD1rHwVsI/AAAAAAAAC20/AIuw0d7zjBE/s1600/ReformationWallGeneva.jpg

Bishop White (no iconoclast he!) adoringly commented on the idols thusly:


. . . the famed "Reformation Wall" . . . I've seen it many times, . . . I haven't gotten around to posting my pics from Edinburgh and Knox's house, so this will have to do for now! For those who do not recognize the great Reformers by face, from left to right we have Guilluame Farel, the fiery Reformer of Geneva who struck fear in Calvin's heart; then John Calvin himself; next to him Theodore Beza, Calvin's successor at Geneva, and finally the fiery John Knox, reformer of Scotland, . . .

That's fine and dandy, but a statue of our Lord Jesus Christ?! Now, that is clearly a transgression of God's laws, so that God has to strike it down in judgment. The idols of Calvin, Farel, Beza, and Knox are preserved by God because they are, you see, good Protestant idols (just like the little statues of Mary in the manger every Christmas in millions of Protestant homes!). Statues of our Lord and Savior and Redeemer and God the Son, Jesus Christ, on the other hand, are evil, pagan "Catholic" idols (even though the one struck down was at a Protestant church).

Related Papers:

Martin Luther on Crucifixes, Images and Statues of Saints, and the Sign of the Cross

Exposition on the Veneration of Images, Iconoclasm, and Idolatry

John Calvin: Musical Instruments in Christian Services Amount to Idolatry, "Corruption," and "Superstition"; a Defilement of "Pure Worship"
The Early Protestant Attitude Towards Art & Strong Iconoclastic Tendency
Calvinist Iconoclasm Against Lutherans and Lutheran Liturgical and Material Suppression (By Outright Theft) of Catholics
Calvin, Calvinism, and Violent Iconoclasm

Discussion With a Reformed Protestant (Catholic) on Art, Early Protestantism, & Catholic Corruption (vs. Kevin Johnson)

26 comments:

Turretinfan said...

Thanks for reading my blog! Obviously, what your comments have overlooked is that the statues shown behind Dr. White aren't purportedly of God the Son. Had that been a 60 foot statue of Calvin, my headline would have been "eye-sore removed."

Dave Armstrong said...

the statues shown behind Dr. White aren't purportedly of God the Son.

Excellent. Then I'll have my statues of Mary and St. Francis and St. Augustine, too (since statues of creatures are fine and dandy). Thanks for your approval! Now I can rest easy at night.

Adomnan said...

Turretinfan: Had that been a 60 foot statue of Calvin, my headline would have been "eye-sore removed."

Adomnan: I've seen depictions of Calvin. A statue of Calvin is an eyesore regardless of its size.

God the Son had a human nature and a human body. He was visible and "very man," not some phantom or blaze of light. He touched people and even put His spittle on them! And so, like Calvin or any other human being, He can be depicted. To deny that is to deny He was human.

Do you think that the people who actually knew Him thought He was beyond portrayal? Where is that in the Bible?

You're stuck in the Old Testament, before God became man. (Well, actually, you penal substitutionists don't believe in the God of the Bible at all, Old or New Testament, but that's another topic.)

Meanwhile, we Catholics have moved on to the Incarnation. Why don't you join us?

I.M Fletcher said...

I don't think people like TAO or some other protestants understand. They seem to believe that we Catholics worship or make idols of statues. This is simply not the case.

Does he not have photos of his family in his house? Or photos of his kids in his wallet? Does he worship them? Of course not. Photographs are there to remind us of the people they represent. Likewise statues. Back in biblical times there was no such thing as a photograph. They had paintings and (more often than not) statues.

You only have to look at a scene from Gladiator starring Russell Crowe. In one scene in the movie he is being held captive and someone smuggles to him little statuettes of his wife and child which Crowe unwraps and kisses. Does he believe they are really his wife and child? NO. They are to remind him.

In the same way, Catholic churches have these statues to remind people who they are praying to in heaven - we do not pray TO the statue; that would indeed be idolatry. Also, the twelve Stations of the Cross are more like an early form of comic book that depict Christ's death. Many people back then could not read, but they could see and understand the story told by the stations.

If you believe in the Shroud of Turin (which I am inclined to), then you believe that Jesus himself created a likeness of himself on the cloth before he left.

Ben M said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dave Armstrong said...

If you believe in the Shroud of Turin (which I am inclined to), then you believe that Jesus himself created a likeness of himself on the cloth before he left.

That is a great observation. I never thought of that. Fantastic! I was inclined to believe in the shroud when I was a Protestant, so this argument could have some force in their ranks, too.

Ones who would believe in the shroud would already tend not to be iconoclasts, though, I would think.

Rod said...

I think the Catholics here miss the point--you call the Reformers dour--yet it seems they are having more fun with this idol burning than you are--Yes you can have your idols of Mary or Augustine and pray to them or pray to what they represent but they are still dead stones or bodies anyways. They dont hear you and wont answer you--but have at it if you wont take fair warning from those who actually read books of true prophets of God such as say...Isaiah!!?? As for the Apostles worshiping statues of Jesus the Man--Its funny they didnt mention building any and bowing before them in any of their letters considering they alone knew what He truly looked like!?And just How do you seperate His Human nature from His divine to circumvent what seems to me a fairly clear command from God--How could God have worded that better so we would know legitimate idols from bad ones??

I.M Fletcher said...

Rod said - Yes you can have your idols of Mary or Augustine and pray to them or pray to what they represent but they are still dead stones or bodies anyways. They dont hear you and wont answer you

Rod, again you are mistaken. Catholics to not pray TO Mary or the Saints - we pray THROUGH them. For example, if a friend of yours asked you to pray for them, would you? Of course you would, as the Bible says it is good to pray for one another. ("Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. James 5:16")

Well, if I were to ask Mary to pray for me, or one of the saints who are with God in Heaven, would that be not even more efficacious than someone on Earth?

Rod, you say they do not hear us, yet the Bible in Hebrews says we are surrounded by a great cloud of unseen witnesses. Perhaps you think they only see but do not hear? I am not sure why that would be the case.

As for the Apostles worshiping statues of Jesus the Man--Its funny they didnt mention building any and bowing before them in any of their letters

That's because the Apostles DIDN'T worship statues of Jesus, AND NEITHER DO CATHOLICS.

And just How do you seperate His Human nature from His divine to circumvent what seems to me a fairly clear command from God-

And yet, God Himself ordered images of angels with outstretched wings to be made for the Ark of the Covenant. And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends. The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover.

Again, this doesn't mean they were to worship the images, or the Ark itself. I don't think anyone can be confused by worshiping a thing and worshiping the thing it represents.

As Ben has also said, God commanded Moses to fashion images of snakes that the people had to look upon to be healed in the desert.

Ben M said...

Ones who would believe in the shroud would already tend not to be iconoclasts, though, I would think.

And speaking of iconoclasts…

St. John of Damascus describes the so-called Christianocategori of his day:

“The Christianocategori, or Accusers of Christians, are such and are so called, because those Christians who worship one living and true God praised in Trinity they accused of worshiping as gods, after the manner of the Greeks, the venerable images of our Lord Jesus Christ, of our immaculate lady, the holy Mother of God, of the holy angels, and of His saints.

"They are furthermore called Iconoclasts, because they have shown deliberate dishonor to all these same holy and venerable images and have consigned them to be broken up and burnt.

"Likewise, some of those painted on walls they have scraped off, while others they have obliterated with whitewash and black paint. They are also called Thymoleontes, or Lion-hearted, because, taking advantage of their authority, they have with great heart given strength to their heresy and with torment and torture visited vengeance upon those who approve of the images. This last name they have also received from their heresiarch.”

On Heresies.

The Fathers of The Church: A New Translation , 1958, Roy Joseph Deferrari, ed., Frederic H. Chase, Jr., tr., Vol. 37, p. 160.
- Google books.

And from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

“In 754 the Iconoclast Emperor Constantine V called in the imperial city a council of 338 bishops. Through cowardice and servility they approved the heretical attitude of the emperor and his father Leo III, also the arguments of the Iconoclast party and their measures against the defenders of the sacred images. They anathematized St. Germanus of Constantinople and St. John Damascene, and denounced the orthodox as idolaters, etc.; at the same time they resented the spoliation of the churches under pretext of destroying images (see ICONOCLASM).”

Council of Constantinople (A.D. 754)

Ben M said...

Tertullian and Augustine on sacred images:

Tertullian, in his work De pudicitia (On Modesty), makes reference to images of the good shepherd painted on chalices:

“You shall have leave to begin with the parables, where you have the lost ewe re-sought by the Lord, and carried back on His shoulders. Let the very paintings ( picturae ) upon your cups ( calicum ) come forward to show whether even in them the figurative meaning of that sheep will shine through (the outward semblance, to teach) whether a Christian or heathen sinner be the object it aims at in the matter of restoration.”

“A parabolis licebit incipias, ubi est ouis perdita a Domino requisita et humeris eius reuecta. Procedant ipsae picturae calicum uestrorum ...”

On Modesty, Chapter 7, 1, "Of the Parables of the Lost Ewe and the Lost Drachma".

And Augustine, in his controversy with the Manicheans, says:

“For Abraham to sacrifice his son of his own accord is shocking madness. His doing so at the command of God proves him faithful and submissive. This is so loudly proclaimed by the very voice of truth, that Faustus, eagerly rummaging for some fault, and reduced at last to slanderous charges, has not the boldness to attack this action. It is scarcely possible that he can have forgotten a deed so famous, that it recurs to the mind of itself without any study or reflection, and is in fact repeated by so many tongues, and PORTRAYED in so many places * that no one can pretend to shut his eyes or his ears to it.”

Contra Faustum, Book XXII, 73 ,

* "tot locis pictum ". Other translations have "PAINTED in so many places". See for example, Political writings, 1994, Saint Augustine, Michael W. Tkacz, et al, p. 221.

Augustine’s Latin:

“Quod usque adeo ipsa veritas clamat, ut eius voce deterritus Faustus, cum in ipsum Abraham quid diceret, unguibus et dentibus quaerens, usque ad calumniosum mendacium perveniret, hoc tamen reprehendere non auderet: nisi forte non ei veniret in mentem factum ita nobile, ut non lectum, nec quaesitum animo occurreret, ut denique tot linguis cantatum, tot locis pictum, et aures et oculos dissimulantis feriret.”

LIBER VIGESIMUS SECUNDUS (Book 22), 73.

Ben M said...

Yes you can have your idols of Mary or Augustine and pray to them or pray to what they represent but they are still dead stones or bodies anyways.

“Dead stones”? "Dead stones"??

Rod, you need to stop listening to HOPELESS DUNCES like John Calvin and start listening to (and believing!) the Scriptures:

“You also, like LIVING STONES, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.” 1 Rock 2:5

The Greek word here for ‘living” is zao. It means:

TO LIVE, breathe, be among the LIVING (NOT LIFELESS, NOT DEAD)

to enjoy real life

to have true life and worthy of the name

active, blessed, endless in the kingdom of God

Zao

“Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me WILL NEVER DIE. Do you believe this?" John 11:25-26

So the saints in heaven are very much ALIVE!

But the question for you, Rod, is how would you answer Jesus’ question, “Do you believe this”?

Peace.

Turretinfan said...

Dave:

Statues of creatures can also be idols, if you worship them.

Adomnan:

Idolatry is still forbidden in the New Testament. The only permissible Icon of Christ are the elements of the Supper.

I.M. Fletcher:

a) This was a "Protestant" idol, not a Romanist one. So, no need to take it personally.

b) Actually, we understand very well that what you are worshiping, when you worship a statue, is the person represented by the statue (at least usually - there are doubtless exceptions, such as when statues allegedly perform miracles).

c) Statues, photos, etc. of loved ones are (it should be obvious) not items of religious devotion. That's not cultus going on. What is going at the side altar of your local parish is cultus - it is a form of worship.

d) Roman Catholics do indeed pray to Mary. The Hail Mary prayer is one such prayer, but there are many more.

e) You seem to think that it would be better to ask Mary to pray for you than to ask one of your fellow men here on Earth. However, Scripture commends those on earth to "bear one another's burdens," but nowhere suggests that we should entreat the dead?

f) Furthermore, you have no revelation from God that would make you think that Mary can either hear or understand your prayer.

g) The cloud of witnesses are people whose deeds testify to us, not folks who witness us in our daily life. The verse refers to the "hall of faith" in Hebrews 11, not to a cloud of ghosts observing our every footstep.

h) You're quite right that the cherubim on the ark weren't worshiped. The God who was worshiped was the invisible God between them.

-TurretinFan

Turretinfan said...

Ben M.:

a) I suppose you're talking about this brazen serpent:

2 Kings 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

b) I'm a big fan of Tertullian:

For, withal, according to the memorial records of the divine Scriptures, the people of the Jews— that is, the more ancient— quite forsook God, and did degrading service to idols, and, abandoning the Divinity, was surrendered to images; while "the people" said to Aaron, "Make us gods to go before us." And when the gold out of the necklaces of the women and the rings of the men had been wholly smelted by fire, and there had come forth a calf-like head, to this figment Israel with one consent (abandoning God) gave honour, saying, "These are the gods who brought us from the land of Egypt." For thus, in the later times in which kings were governing them, did they again, in conjunction with Jeroboam, worship golden cattle, and groves, and enslave themselves to Baal. Whence is proved that they have ever been depicted, out of the volume of the divine Scriptures, as guilty of the crime of idolatry; whereas our "less"— that is, posterior— people, quitting the idols which formerly it used slavishly to serve, has been converted to the same God from whom Israel, as we have above related, had departed. [1 Thessalonians 1:9-10]

- Tertullian, An Answer to the Jews, Chapter 1

(see also the discussion here)

c) I'm also a big fan of Augustine. (for the reasons you'll find at this link)

d) "dead stones"

Yes, the stone idols are dead stones in contrast to "lively stones" (1 Peter 2:5).

e) "hopeless dunces like John Calvin"

I suppose this is not to be understood literally but simply as an insult. If Calvin were a dunce, his Institutes of the Christian Religion (written in Latin and then in French) would truly be a miracle. When one then included his numerous sermons (many now lost) and his commentary on almost the entire Bible, it would be truly something beyond belief that this could be the work of a "hopeless dunce."

f) As for whether the faithful may be rightly described as dead. Consider the following:

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

-TurretinFan

Dave Armstrong said...

Great stuff, Ben. Thanks much!

I.M Fletcher said...

Turretinfan - it's obvious you have fixed and unmoving assumptions about Catholics and what we believe, even though I tell you we don't.

As for the Hail Mary - have you actually studied the rosary and what it is? It is actually the praying of the Gospels - meditating on the main events of Jesus' life as you pray. Do you have anything against the Gospels?

As for the Hail Mary, the first part of the prayer is taken from the Gospels as well and is the prayer of greeting the angel used -

"Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with Thee.
Blessed art Thou among women
And blessed is the fruit of Thy Womb, Jesus"

And the second is asked her to pray for us -

"Holy Mary, the Mother of God
Pray for us, sinners
Now, and at the hour of our death"

Now what is wrong with that? We do not 'worship' Mary. We honour her as the mother of our lord Jesus.
Nor do we worship any statues or idols at church. You are correct when you mention "side" of the altar.

What is worshiped is the presence of our lord Jesus Christ in the Eucharist at the altar (during Mass). You will not find any statues on the altar.

I realize I am not going to convince you because you have your own ideas about what you think is right. I could only hope that you earnestly pray to God and ask Him about it - about the Catholic faith, and see what He says.

I.M Fletcher said...

ps, in the Bible, we have a clear example of Mary interceding at the Wedding banquet where they ran out of wine. It wasn't yet Jesus' time to reveal himself and begin to do miracles, ("Dear woman, why do you involve me?" Jesus replied, "My time has not yet come.") but because of His Mothers' influence he performed his first miracle and changed the water into wine.

Mary's role in the Church has ever been to lead people to her Son, Jesus.

Turretinfan said...

"Turretinfan - it's obvious you have fixed and unmoving assumptions about Catholics and what we believe, even though I tell you we don't."

They're not really assumptions. Let's see if we can resolve our disagreements without that kind of characterization.

"As for the Hail Mary - have you actually studied the rosary and what it is?"

Yes.

"It is actually the praying of the Gospels - meditating on the main events of Jesus' life as you pray. Do you have anything against the Gospels?"

I have nothing against the Gospels.

"As for the Hail Mary, the first part of the prayer is taken from the Gospels as well and is the prayer of greeting the angel used -"

Actually, friend, perhaps I've studied this a little more than you. The first part is actually three things:

The first piece is taken from the angel's greeting ("Hail ..."), part is taken from Elizabeth's greeting ("blessed is the fruit ..."), and the "Mary" is inserted extraneously. The "full of grace" is a good translation of the Latin, which is a bad translation of the Greek, but that's another debate for another day, I trust.

"And the second is asked her to pray for us -"

Yes.

"Now what is wrong with that?"

Well, from a practical standpoint, Mary's not around to hear your prayer. Her body is, as far as we know, in the grave somewhere, and her soul (as far as we know) is in heaven with God.

In other words, you're not in the same position as Gabriel or Elizabeth. You're not standing in front of Mary, talking to her. She's departed.

From a moral standpoint, you have to realize that this is a prayer. I mean, I would be surprised if you didn't think that this form of communication is called praying. Prayer is one element of worship. There are other elements as well, and you see many of them if you go to a Marian shrine. Obviously, not everyone who is Roman Catholic goes to those shrines.

Finally, the prayer to Mary is specifically asking her to be your mediator (technically, "mediatrix" because she's female). However, we are to have only one mediator. We may sometimes pray for others, and we may ask others to pray for us, but we do not do so on the basis that they will be pleading their merits. With this prayer, there is an understanding that Mary's prayers are being requested because there is something special about Mary - she's "full of grace" as the Latin/English have it.

One thing I like about the sort of "modern" Roman Catholic Church is that it doesn't really teach folks about why they are entreating Mary, so this particular element of the issue may not be present in many folks use of the "Hail Mary."

[cont'd in part 2]

Turretinfan said...

[cont'd in part 1]

"We do not 'worship' Mary."

With all due respect, I know that American Roman Catholics these days don't like to use that word, but when you are praying, and lighting candles, and so forth, it is cultus or worship. The "cult of Mary" is what it is (I know that term "cult" has a different meaning these days, so please don't think I'm calling you Hare Krishnas).

"We honour her as the mother of our lord Jesus."

Well, have you forgotten that Jesus assigned that responsibility personally to the beloved disciple?

"Nor do we worship any statues or idols at church."

You have statues in many churches, and they are part of the worship. I understand that you seek to worship Jesus through the statue, but that's not the way that God wants to be worshiped.

"You are correct when you mention "side" of the altar."

Thanks.

"What is worshiped is the presence of our lord Jesus Christ in the Eucharist at the altar (during Mass)."

That is also problematic, if the Eucharist is not really transubstantiated. But again, perhaps that's a debate or dialog for another day.

"You will not find any statues on the altar."

Agreed. At least, I cannot recall any statues on any of the many modern (post-12th century) altars I have seen.

"I realize I am not going to convince you because you have your own ideas about what you think is right."

Well, I'm generally glad to learn and dialog with those who are willing to do so. If perhaps you and I have learned a thing or two in the debate, it will be for the best.

"I could only hope that you earnestly pray to God and ask Him about it - about the Catholic faith, and see what He says."

I find God's Word in Scripture - and when I read the Scriptures, I don't see Roman Catholicism. I don't see, for example, the apostles venerating Mary, or having statues or even icons. They certainly did not pray the Rosary.

I hope you will read the Scriptures both so that you will see that what I say is true, and also so that you will receive the benefit of the power of the Word of God that is in Scripture.

If my own suggestion is not enough, your church encourages you to read the Bible, offering an indulgence (partial, I think, not plenary, but my memory may be wrong) if you read a certain amount a day. Nevertheless, I encourage you to read it because it is the very Word of God, not simply to get some kind of spiritual credit for doing it.

-TurretinFan

Ben M said...

Dave,

Great stuff, Ben. Thanks much!

Your welcome, Dave!

Turretinfan,

a) I suppose you're talking about this brazen serpent:

2 Kings 18:4


TF, try, try to understand: Catholics DO NOT burn incense to saints, nor do we offer sacrifice (which is true spiritual worship) to them!

You feign concern about "idolatry" yet think nothing of slander!

But Augustine had to respond to similar accusations in his day (Contra Faustum, Book XX, 21):

“It is true that Christians pay religious honor to the memory of the martyrs, both to excite us to imitate them and to obtain a SHARE IN THEIR MERITS, and the ASSISTANCE OF THEIR PRAYERS. But we build altars NOT to any martyr, but to the God of martyrs, although it is to the memory of the martyrs. No one officiating at the altar in the saints' burying-place ever says, We bring an offering to you, O Peter! Or O Paul! Or O Cyprian!…

“What is properly divine worship, which the Greeks call LATRIA, and for which there is no word in Latin, both in doctrine and in practice, we give ONLY TO GOD.

“To this worship belongs the offering of SACRIFICES; as we see in the word idolatry, which means the giving of this worship to idols. Accordingly we never offer, or require any one to offer, SACRIFICE to a martyr, or to a holy soul, or to any angel. Any one falling into this error is instructed by doctrine, either in the way of correction or of caution.”

As did St. John of Damascus:

"We should certainly fall into error if we should make an image of the invisible God; since that which is not corporeal, nor visible, nor circumscribed, nor imagined, cannot be depicted at all. Again, we should act impiously if we thought images made by men were god, and bestowed honors upon them as if they were. But we do not admit to doing any of these things."

Against Those Who Destroy Sacred Images, Or. 2, 5, MG 94, 1288.

‘We adore only the Creator and Maker of things, God, to whom we offer LATRIA since God is to be adored according to His nature. We also adore the holy mother of God, NOT AS GOD, but as mother of God according to the flesh. We also adore the saints, the chosen friends of God, by whom we have easy access to Him."

Against Those Who Destroy Sacred Images, Or. 3, 41, MG 94, 1357.

The Teachings of the Church Fathers, 1966, 2002, John Randolph Willis, Marie Joseph Rou√ęt de Journel, pp. 4-5.

Ben M said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Adomnan said...

“When he refutes, there is always a little anger, a little contempt, and sometimes a great deal; always that assurance which WILL NOT ALLOW him to admit it possible for one to differ from him without being a dolt, a dunce, or a traitor.”

Calvin: his life, his labours, and his writings, 1863, Félix Bungener, p. 40.

Ben, Calvin's followers certainly take after him, don't they?

That's because they share with Calvin an image of God, an idol, after whose unlovely pattern they mold their own characters.

Paul had the remedy to cure this kind of idolatry: "Be imitators of Christ and of us." One should imitate Christ and the saints, not the products of the idol factory of the heretical mind.

Jae said...

Turretinfan,

Which part of, "we don't worship Mary" that you don't understand?

"lighting candles...going on at the side altar is "cultus?"

Even the jews today would have laugh at the idea...idol worship! So when the jews lighted candles of their menoras (7-candles)inside the inner tabernacle with the Holy of Holies (by the way it was God who gave that Name to a physical image, gosh!)- The Ark of the Covenant which is God's ordained "images and statues" they were according to your reasoning, quilty of idol worship to the Ark?

THE MERE FACT that God ordained, willed and commanded Moses to built an Ark with statues of cherubims is enough to say that it PLEASES Him. (aside from the many images inside King Solomon's Temple which God obviously was pleased).

I really think you missed the crucial point here...IT IS THE INTENTION OF ONE'S HEART that God is looking and not the images by themselves....spell it out, if you intentionally with knowledge, free will give worship to any object or creatures (idiotic!- not you but just the idea) and not Almighty God then you are violating His Commandment. In this modern world, it is more on the idol worship of sex, money, drugs, lust etc.

I have a question, can you somehow explain why God (again!) ordained and commanded to make from a physical, material, tangible created matter which was the Bronze Serpent to somehow "channel" (through it) God's Grace? that whoever looked at it would be healed? Why did He ask the jews to do it on the first place? He didn't need it but WHY?

Why did David, Solomon, Jeremiah and the jews give their utmost honor, respect, veneration to the Ark of the Covenant? which was an image by itself, and why did God DEMANDED such acts from them?

Don't say they were not in the "cultus" mode!

Peace.

Ben M said...

Adomnan addressing Turretinfan:

You're stuck in the Old Testament, before God became man. (Well, actually, you penal substitutionists don't believe in the God of the Bible at all ...

Ben: Adomnan, you might find this interesting. Check out pp. 90-92 of Jesus Our Priest: A Christian Approach to the Priesthood of Christ, 2010, Gerald O'Collins, S.J., ("professor emeritus after teaching for 33 years at the Gregorian University (Rome)") and Michael Keenan Jones. (Amazon might let you view more pages)

Meanwhile, we Catholics have moved on to the Incarnation. Why don't you join us?

Ben: Ah, but there's the rub! If only our Protestant friends could understand the Incarnation and the Mystical Body!

But because they don't, they oppose things like the veneration of saints (which according to the Fathers, is in a certain sense the veneration of Christ!), the use of images etc.

Anyway, with regard to the Incarnation vis a vis Protestantism, see this from the Dublin review for March and June, 1853, Vol. 34, p. 36.

Quote:

What then is the Catholic doctrine of the Incarnation?

"The Word was made Flesh." Of those who read the text, how many receive the doctrine in its fulness? How many know that, in this mystery of mysteries, our fallen nature has been, not only raised and cleansed, but reintegrated in the mould of our second Adam, in Him reconstituted, and made with Him to sit in heavenly places?

The Calvinist, who affirms that Redemption belongs, like Salvation, to the elect only, and not to the race, is ignorant of this great truth; for which yet he may think himself willing to undergo martyrdom.

The Lutheran, who denies that there is any righteousness, except what is external and imputed, in Christ's brethren, living members of the second Adam, understands it not.

Those who brand as a superstition the belief that baptism grafts us into the new Adam, and that the holy Eucharist is the food which sustains the life supernatural then accorded, grasp it not. Those who do not believe the organic unity of Christ's mystical body, but content themselves (except when condemning Dissenters), with the subterfuge of a merely moral unity, fathom not the mystery. Yet all alike, and multitudes beside, still further from the truth, think that they hold the doctrine of the Incarnation.

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Adomnan: Paul had the remedy to cure this kind of idolatry: "Be imitators of Christ and of us." One should imitate Christ and the saints, not the products of the idol factory of the heretical mind.

Ben: Very true! God raises up saints for us to imitate. This is profoundly Scriptural. But Protestants know that the saints, by their deep humility, sanctity and love of the Mystical Body, are a witness against them. And so their pride can endure no reminders of them – no sermons, no images, no anything. They almost seem offended by genuine sanctity!

So they turn from the light of sanctity to the “light” of their “Reformers.” A seeming "light" indeed - to those whose eyes of the soul have grown accustomed to the dark!

Ben M said...
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Ben said...

"For those who do not recognize the great Reformers by face, from left to right we have Guilluame Farel, the fiery Reformer of Geneva who struck fear in Calvin's heart..."

...and who was, according to Erasmus...!

guy fawkes said...

Dave,
I have seen those statues in that park in Geneva. In the formerly Catholic/now Calvinist cathedral they also venerate the chair where Calvin rested his back side.
Even more scandalous, I have seen a similar pantheon of Protestant gods in Worms, Germany.