Thursday, January 14, 2010

Evidence That Anti-Catholic Apologist Jason Engwer Mostly Ignores Catholic Arguments in "Debate": Exactly What He Cited From Two of My Recent Papers

[PickandChoose.jpg]

I have now documented twice (one / two) how Jason Engwer deliberately picks and chooses what he will deal with, when in a debate. I showed this not just in two exchanges with me, but also two with Catholic apologist Bryan Cross, in December 2009. Out of the four attempts, Jason averaged a 20% rate of citing his opponents' words in order to refute them; ignoring 80%.

He and his cronies at Tribalblogue keep wanting to deny that there is anything inadequate about this odd methodology, and continue to assert that most of my argumentation is skipped over because it is meaningless and has no content. Well, that may be (I happen to think -- as one would expect! -- it is not the case). But I have always been an advocate of letting readers decide where the truth lies, in any given controverted matter, by being able to read both sides (to utilize their critical faculties and judgment a bit). You already have gotten both sides of the debate Jason and I had, on my blog, since I cite 100% of his words, and did so in all six of our recent exchanges (Parts 1-4 / part 5 / part 6). So readers can see who argued what, back-and-forth.

In my last installment dealing with this ridiculous business, I came upon a nifty method to show exactly how Jason picks-and-chooses: by highlighting in red the words that he selects from his opponent, to grapple with. In the case I documented already (with Bryan Cross), he was up to an extraordinarily high rate (by his low dialogical standards) of 37% response. It will be a lot more fun to see what it looks like, to document his 12% and 13% response rates, in my own case. Then readers can decide if all the stuff he ignored was indeed worthless and unworthy of any reply, or not. You read; you decide. I'll give you the entire documented facts of what was ignored, so an informed judgment can be made.

I will cite, then, my new words only (omitting citations of Jason and of my own past words), from the following two posts:

Dialogue With Protestant Apologist Jason Engwer on the Rule of Faith in the Church Fathers, Part One (Papias)

Papias, Scripture, and Tradition (Round Two): Dialogue With Protestant Apologist Jason Engwer / Sadly Typical End of Discourse With Anti-Catholics

Jason's replies to my two papers above can be read by themselves, from his own blog:

Where Are "Apostolic Succession" And "Authoritative Tradition" In Papias? (20 January 2010)

The "Anomalies" of Papias (20 January 2010)

Note that I even followed his agenda; his particular argument he wished to pursue. Papias (a very early Church father about whom we know very little) was only dealt with in a tiny portion of my papers. This is what Jason considered a "reply": concentrating on someone I hardly dealt with at all. Jason chose to hone in on him, thinking he had a good case there (precisely, I think, because we know so little!). I played along, citing 100% of his words and giving some reply to every argument he made. But even then he dealt with only 12% and 13% of my words. You can now see exactly what he deemed as worthy of response. The words of mine that he cited to reply to will be highlighted in red:

* * * * *


First Paper: Jason Replies to 12% of My New Words and (Roughly) Arguments

True.

Well, we'll see about that as we go along.

That's because his position on this business of the rule of faith in the fathers entails it, as I will be happy to elaborate upon and clarify. I don't make any serious charge lightly, and readers may rest assured that when I do, that I have very good reason to do so: a rationale that I can surely defend against scrutiny and/or protest (as indeed I am doing presently).

That comes as no surprise. But my "now" was primarily intended in a rhetorical / logical sense, not a chronological one, anyway. But in a larger sense it is part of Jason's overall approach (which is not without self-contradiction, which I was partially alluding to there): what I call the "slippery fish" or "floating ducks at the carnival sideshow" approach. Protestants of a certain type (nebulous evangelicals, primarily: I still have no idea even what denomination Jason attends; perhaps he will be so kind as to inform me) reserve the right to criticize Catholicism endlessly; yet if we dare to dispute their arguments and ask if they have anything superior to offer, it's often the moving or unknown target runaround. Or there is the retreat into obfuscation: Jason's own specialty.

First, we hear from these circles that the fathers believe in sola Scriptura, period (I will have more on this below). Then we are blessed with a more clever, subtle argument: that they didn't believe in sola Scriptura per se, but that, nevertheless, what they did believe (whatever it was, in many variations), is definitely closer to Protestantism than to Catholicism. This has been Jason's general approach through the years, as I understand it. Now we enter into a third phase, so to speak: the fathers didn't always believe in sola Scriptura, but it doesn't matter, because times were different, then, and different times demand a changing rule of faith. The moving target . . .

Mostly what matters to Jason is how he can poke holes in what he (sometimes falsely) believes to be Catholic belief.

He picks and chooses what he thinks will hurt the Catholic historical case. Jason's method is nothing if it is not that. But he's highly selective and the "grid" that he tries to fit all of this data into is incoherent and changes to suit his polemical needs at any given moment.

Catholics agree with many, if not all of these points. But how Jason goes on to apply this in his analysis will eventually involve a self-contradiction that isn't present in the Catholic view of history and development of doctrine.

Of course. Both sides agree on that.

This is where the differences emerge. Catholics believe there was one rule of faith that consistently developed. It is what we call the "three-legged stool": Scripture-Church-Tradition (as passed down by apostolic succession). There is a great deal of development that takes place over time: especially when we are looking at the earliest fathers (Papias lived from c. 60 to 130, so he was actually in the apostolic period for a good half of his life). But the rule of faith did not change into anything substantially or essentially different.

Papias had the Scripture of the Old Testament and he even had much of the New Testament even at that early stage, as the Gospels and Paul's letters were widely accepted as canonical, very early on. Therefore, Papias could indeed have lived by sola Scriptura as the rule of faith. There is no compelling reason to think that he could not have done so, simply due to his living in a very early period of Christian history.

The position that Jason is staking out: that Papias wouldn't have lived by sola Scriptura, and indeed, that he didn't have to, for the Protestant historical position to make sense, entails not a consistent development, but an essential break: there was one rule of faith in the earliest periods, and then suddenly, with the fully developed canon of Scripture, another one henceforth.

Needless to say, this is merely yet another arbitrary Protestant tradition: a tradition of men: just as sola Scriptura itself is. There is nothing in the Bible itself about such a supposed sea change. The Bible teaches neither sola Scriptura, nor this view of tradition at first, and then sola Scriptura after the Bible. But these are cherished Protestant myths, despite being absent altogether in Holy Scripture.

There are complexities in individuals and exceptions to the rule (of faith), but there is also a broad consensus to be observed and traced through history, as we see with all true doctrines. Jason wants to assert both a radical change and the absence of a consensus. At the same time he denies the interconnectedness of all these related concepts having to do with authority, as I have noted in my previous critique.

In any event, he dissents from some of the allegedly best lights in Protestant research about the rule of faith in the fathers; for example, the trilogy of books about sola Scriptura by David T. King and William Webster (Vol. I (King) / Vol. II (Webster) / Vol. III (King and Webster), where it is stated (bolding my own):

The patristic evidence for sola Scriptura is, we believe, an overwhelming indictment against the claims of the Roman communion.

(Vol. I, 266)


Such statements manifest an ignorance of the patristic and medieval perspective on the authority of Scripture. Scripture alone as the infallible rule for the ongoing life and faith of the Church was the universal belief and practice of the Church of the patristic and medieval ages.

(Vol. II, 84-85)


When they [the Church Fathers] are allowed to speak for themselves it becomes clear that they universally taught sola Scriptura in the fullest sense of the term embracing both the material and formal sufficiency of Scripture.

(Vol. III, 9)

Sales pitches for the trilogy on a major Reformed booksite (Monergism Books) echo these historically absurd assertions (bolding my own):
It reveals that the leading Church fathers’ view of the authority and finality of the written Word of God was as lofty as that of any Protestant Reformer. In effect, Webster and King have demonstrated that sola Scriptura was the rule of faith in the early church.

--Dr. John MacArthur, Pastor/Teacher of Grace Community Church, Sun Valley, CA

William Webster and David King have hit the bull’s eye repeatedly and with great force in their treatment of sola Scriptura. The exegetical material sets forth a formidable biblical foundation for this claim of exclusivity and the historical argument illustrates how the early church believed it and traces the circuitous path by which Roman Catholicism came to place tradition alongside Scripture as a source, or deposit, of authoritative revelation.

--Dr. Tom Nettles, Professor of Historical Theology, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Louisville, KY

(on the book page for Vol. I)

[Description]: In this Volume, William Webster addresses the common historical arguments against sola Scriptura, demonstrating that the principle is, in fact, eminently historical, finding support in ‘the unanimous consent of the fathers.’

The authors show, with painstaking thoroughness, that sola Scriptura is the teaching of the Bible itself and was central in the belief and practice of the early church, as exemplified in history and the writings of the Fathers.

--Edward Donnelly, Minister of Trinity Reformed Presbyterian Church, Newtownabbey, and Professor of New Testament at Reformed Theological College, Belfast, Northern Ireland

King and Webster have utterly destroyed that position by showing that the consent of the fathers teaches the doctrine of sola Scriptura.

--Jay Adams, co-pastor of The Harrison Bridge Road A.R.P. Church in Simpsonville, South Carolina, founder of the Christian Counseling and Educational Foundation of Laverock, Pennsylvania

In painstaking detail, Webster and King systematically dismantle the unbiblical and ahistorical assertions made by modern Roman Catholic apologists who all too often rely on eisegetical interpretations of the Bible and ‘cut and paste’ patrology.

--Eric Svendsen, Professor of Biblical Studies at Columbia Evangelical Seminary

[The Forewords of this volume (II) and Vol. I were written by James White]

(on the book page for Vol. II)

[Description]: The Roman Catholic Church teaches that the principle is illegitimate because, she claims, it is unhistorical. By this she means that sola Scriptura is a theological novelty in that it supposedly has no support in the teaching of the early Church. Roman apologists charge that the teaching on Scripture promoted by the Reformers introduced a false dichotomy between the Church and Scripture which elevated Scripture to a place of authority unheard of in the early Church. The Church of Rome insists that the early Church fathers, while fully endorsing the full inspiration of the Old and New Testaments, did not believe in sola Scriptura. . . .

The documentation provided reveals in the clearest possible terms the Church fathers’ belief in the material and formal sufficiency of Scripture. By material sufficiency we mean that all that is necessary to be believed for faith and morals is revealed in Scripture. Formal sufficiency means that all that is necessary for faith and morals is clearly revealed in Scripture, so that an individual, by the enablement of the Holy Spirit alone, can understand the essentials of salvation and the Christian life. Page after page gives eloquent testimony to the supreme authority that Scripture held in the life of the early Church and serves as a much needed corrective to Rome’s misrepresentation of the Church fathers and her denigration of the sufficiency and final authority of Scripture.

(for the book page of Vol. III)

This is the standard anti-Catholic-type boilerplate rhetoric about sola Scriptura and the fathers. At least it is consistent (consistently wrong). But Jason dissents from his colleagues and wants to play the game of having a relativistic rule of faith: not in play from the beginning of Christianity, but only set in motion later. This allows him to play the further game of denying that Papias' views are consistent with Catholic dogma and our rule of faith, while not having any responsibility of showing that it is consistent with a Protestant view.

He always has that "out" (which is rather standard Protestant anti-Catholic apologetics): "but that ain't me / us." It's like a wax nose that can be molded to any whim or desire. Papias ain't Protestant but (and here is the important part) he certainly ain't Catholic (!!!) -- so sez Jason Engwer. Yet I have shown (and will continue to demonstrate) that his views are perfectly consistent with the Catholic rule of faith, taking into account that he is very early in history, so that we don't see full-fledged Catholicism. We see a primitive Catholic rule of faith: precisely as we would and should suspect.

Jason thinks he contradicts our view because (as I discussed in my Introduction to the previous four-part series) he expects to see the Catholic rule of faith explicitly in place in the first and second century: whereas our view of development, by definition, does not entail, let alone require this. Thus, he imposes a Protestant conception of "fully-formed from the outset" that he doesn't even accept himself, onto the Catholic claim.

It depends on what one means by different: different in particulars; different in time-frames (David had no NT or revelation of Jesus); difference in amount of development, etc. What was in common was that all accepted "the word of God" (both written and oral) as normative for the Christian faith, but not in the sense of sola Scriptura.

Jason can hem and haw all he likes. The fact remains that he has expressly denied that Papias would have believed in sola Scriptura. But the standard anti-Catholic historical argumentation is what I have documented: "Scripture alone as the infallible rule for the ongoing life and faith of the Church was the universal belief and practice of the Church of the patristic and medieval ages" (William Webster); "they universally taught sola Scriptura . . . embracing . . . formal sufficiency of Scripture" (David T. King and William Webster). So which will it be? There are three positions to choose from:

1) Papias was one of the fathers who "universally" held to sola Scriptura.

2) Papias didn't hold to sola Scriptura, but also didn't espouse a rule of faith consistent with Catholicism.

3) Papias didn't embrace sola Scriptura, and his rule of faith was consistent with Catholicism.

#1 is the standard boilerplate anti-Catholic Protestant position, as I have shown above. #2 is Jason's pick-and-choose "cafeteria patristic" view, that contradicts #1. #3 is my view and the Catholic view.

Exactly. From what we can tell, James White wouldn't say that. Webster and King and Svendsen and John MacArthur wouldn't. Why is it, then, that they aren't out there correcting Jason? He disagrees with them (Papias doesn't teach sola Scriptura) just as much as he does with me (Papias doesn't hold to a primitive version of the historic Catholic rule of faith; he contradicts that). He's betwixt and between. He needs to go back to King's and White's and Webster's books to get up to speed and get his evangelical anti-Catholic act together.

Thanks for the great link.

Cool. And what position did he take, choosing from #1, #2, and #3 above? I was able to read pp. 21-38 on amazon, and discovered that Bauckham tries to make a big deal of the distinction between oral history and oral tradition, with the former directly relying on eyewitness accounts (of the sort that Papias tried to collect). Bauckham's stance, then, is a subtler version of #2. He seems to be trying (by repeated, almost mantra-like emphasis) to undermine a Catholic notion of oral tradition without saying so in so many words.

But he doesn't prove at all that Papias' approach is inconsistent with the Catholic three-legged stool rule of faith. Of course we would expect Papias to seek eyewitness accounts, since he lived so early. How in the world that is construed as somehow contrary to Catholic tradition is, I confess, beyond me. The following distinctions must be made and understood:

View of Tradition I:

I. 1) Legitimate tradition relies on eyewitness testimony only.

I. 2) Once the eyewitnesses die, then there is no longer true [binding] tradition to speak of.


View of Tradition II:


II. 1) Legitimate tradition relies primarily on eyewitness testimony where it is available.

II. 2) Legitimate tradition after eyewitness testimony is no longer available continues to be valid by means of [Holy Spirit-guided] unbroken [apostolic] succession, so that the truths originated by eyewitnesses continue on through history.

Jason and Bauckham appear to be asserting I. 1. But I. 2 does not necessarily follow from what we know of Papias' views. We know that he collected eyewitness testimony. We don't know that he would say that was the only tradition that was legitimate. In other words, it is the claim of exclusivity that involves the prior assumption brought to the facts. The Catholic view is Tradition II, which is perfectly consistent with what we know of Papias, or at the very least not ruled out by what we know of him.

The biggest problem with Tradition I is that it is not biblical. It contradicts what the Bible teaches. St. Paul, after all, was not an eyewitness of the life of Jesus (though he did have a post-Resurrection encounter with him that remains possible to this day). Yet he feels that he can authoritatively pass on Christian apostolic traditions (1 Cor 11:2, 23; 15:3; 2 Thess 2:15; 3:6, 14). Thus, whoever learned Christian truths from St. Paul did not receive them from an eyewitness. Paul had to talk to someone like Peter to get firsthand accounts (or Bauckham's "oral history").

He was passing on what he himself had "received" from yet another source (1 Cor 11:23; 15:3; Phil 4:9; 1 Thess 2:13). He even specifically instructs Timothy to pass on his (oral) traditions to "faithful men," who in turn can pass them on to others (2 Tim 2:2). So just from this verse we see four generations of a passed-on tradition (Paul: the second generation, Timothy, and those whom Timothy teaches). This tradition is not even necessarily written by Paul or anyone else (Rom 10:8; Eph 1:13; 1 Thess 2:13; 2 Thess 2:15; 2 Tim 1:13-14; cf. Heb 13:7; 1 Pet 1:25). There is no indication that the chain is supposed to end somewhere down the line.

Secondly, even Papias, according to Eusebius, didn't claim to talk to the apostles, but only to their friends:

2. But Papias himself in the preface to his discourses by no means declares that he was himself a hearer and eye-witness of the holy apostles, but he shows by the words which he uses that he received the doctrines of the faith from those who were their friends.

7. And Papias, of whom we are now speaking, confesses that he received the words of the apostles from those that followed them, . . .

(Ecclesiastical History, III, 39, 4)

That makes Papias a third-hand witness; not even second-hand (someone who talked to apostles).

This doesn't rule out apostolic succession; to the contrary, it is a perfect example of it. He talked to people who knew the apostles. His testimony was third-hand. He "received the doctrines of the faith from those who were their [the apostles'] friends." What is that if not succession? It is more or less independent of Scripture. Papias' rule of faith was:

Apostles and apostolic doctrine ---> friends of the apostles ---> Papias

But the Protestant methodology and rule of faith is:

Apostles and apostolic doctrine ---> Scripture ---> Papias and everyone else

He says that Jerome understood Papias as referring to access to living witnesses as his preferred mode of collecting information. But as I have already shown, I think, this in no way is inconsistent with Catholic tradition. It's plain common sense. What Jason doesn't mention, however, is Bauckham's observation right after citing Jerome, translating Papias:


Jerome here seems to take Papias to mean that he preferred the oral communication of eyewitnesses to the written records of their testimony in the Gospels.


(p. 28)

And that sounds distinctly unProtestant and contrary to sola Scriptura, doesn't it? If we're gonna mention one aspect of St. Jerome's thought (even if it is falsely thought to bolster some anti-Catholic line of reasoning), why not the other also, even if it doesn't fit in with the game plan? Get the whole picture, in other words.

Again, the trouble with this is that Eusebius specifically says (twice) that Papias only knew friends of the apostles: not they themselves. So one of is key premises is unfactual. And then we have Paul espousing authoritative fourth-hand tradition in Scripture. In any event, Bauckham appears to contradict himself:

Bauckham I: "what Papias thinks preferable to books is not oral tradition as such but access, while they are still alive, to those who were direct participants in the historical events - in this case 'the disciples of the Lord.' . . . when Papias speaks of 'a living and abiding voice,' he . . . speaks quite literally of the voice of an informant - someone who has personal memories of the words and deeds of Jesus and is still alive . . . "

Bauckham II: "Even in Hierapolis it was on his personal contact with the daughters of Philip that he set store. What mattered to Papias, as a collector and would-be recorder of Gospel traditions, was that there were eyewitnesses, some still around, and access to them through brief and verifiable channels of named informants."

Which is it?: Eyewitnesses or those who knew eyewitnesses? Once one starts going down the chain to third-hand, fourth-hand or later generations of witnesses, one is squarely within oral tradition. It's something other than eyewitness testimony. Protestants have been rejecting, for example, St. Ignatius, as too "Catholic" (therefore corrupt), for centuries. They thought the books with his name weren't even authentic for a long time, till they were indisputably proved to be so. Now they are authentic, but still disliked by Protestants because they are already thoroughly Catholic.

In other words, the traditions that he teaches are rejected, no matter how proximate they are to the apostles. St. Ignatius (c. 35 - c. 110) was born a generation earlier than Papias. He may possibly have known St. John, or known of him through St. Polycarp (c. 69 - c. 155). But does that impress Protestants? No; not if they are intent on rejecting any doctrine that has the slightest "Catholic" flavor in it. Anti-Catholicism is the driving force: not some great goal of getting close to apostles via those who talked to them or to those who knew them.

It is more valuable, in evidential or strictly historiographical terms. But this is no argument against Catholic tradition. It simply notes one special, early form of apostolic tradition.

Sure it was. This is apostolic tradition. Much ado about nothing . . . Jason will try to kill it off by his "death by a thousand qualifications" methodology, but it won't fly. Nothing here (in the case of Papias) causes our view any problems whatsoever. The only problems are whether (in the Protestant paradigms) one wants to claim Papias as one of the fathers who supposedly "universally" believed in sola Scriptura, or to deny that he did so, as Jason does. The contradiction arises in Protestant ranks, not between Papias and Catholic tradition.

Thanks for that valuable information.

It's perfectly consistent with our notion, and we continue to think oral tradition is authoritative, whereas Protestants have ditched it: in direct contrast to what the fathers thought about such things.

It will do just fine!

No. Jason was accused of that because he arbitrarily decides that sola Scriptura kicks in later on and not from the first (itself a wacky Protestant tradition, and not biblical at all). He has a "jerky," inconsistent view of Church history. But the Catholic view is a smooth line of development.

Exactly. More truisms . . .

He followed the latter in a primitive form. What he believed is no different in essence from what Catholics have believed all along, and from what I believe myself, as an orthodox Catholic. But it's sure different from what Protestants and Jason believe. Even he concedes that, and is half-right, at least.

Which is a species of ours . . .

My goal was to show that Papias is not a counter-example to Catholic tradition. I think I have succeeded in showing that, if I do say so.

One doesn't have to go through every fine point and distinction at any given time. There is an oral element here that is different from sola Scriptura. The Jason method won't work (i.e., note any distinction or exception whatever to be found, and then thrown that in the Catholic's face as a supposed disproof). It hasn't worked in the past, and it is failing again now.

I don't believe in that (used to), but the Catholic Church has not proclaimed many eschatological beliefs as dogma. Our position is not to uncritically accept any given father's view on anything, but to look at the consensus.

The point being that if Jason wants to drop scholars' names, then he can at least cite some of it rather than making his readers go look up everything. He didn't even link to the amazon book, where, fortunately, I could read the section he referenced. He cites it now; but that bolsters my point. He could have done that before, rather than just dropping names.

I didn't know it was too hard for Jason to click on a mouse (take all of a third of a second to do that "work") or to do a simple word search within articles. I am providing instant access to support for some point I am making if I cite past articles and link to them.

* * * * *

Second Paper: Jason Replies to 13% of My New Words and (Roughly) Arguments

I would think that was a manifestation of it, yes: transmission of firsthand apostolic information through another party (in this case, daughters of an apostle).

What means? If he was talking to Philip's daughters, that was part of the tradition. What else would it be? Homer's Odyssey? Betting on chariot races? It's primitive Christian apostolic tradition being passed down: "delivered" and "received," just as St. Paul uses those terms. Jason can't get out of the obvious fact by nitpicking and doing the "death by a thousand qualifications" game that he has honed to a fine art.

The two are not mutually exclusive at all. Now, routine historiographical investigation (because of historical proximity to the apostles), is pit against tradition, as if one rules out the other. The NT is good history; it is also good tradition. The twain shall meet: believe it or not.

He demonstrated the rule of faith in how he approached all these matters. This is how he lived his Christianity: his standard of authority. That's the rule of faith. Nothing about Scripture Alone here: even Jason admits that, because he accepts a "herky-jerky" notion of the rule of faith being one thing early on and then magically transforming into something else later on. That's not development; it is reversal: the very opposite of development.

Why should any Christian believe anything that he hears (from the Bible or whatever)? Why should Papias believe Philip's daughters or other close associates of the apostles? Why should Jason question everything to death? Why can't he simply accept these things in faith? Why does he have to play around with every father he can find, to somehow make them out to be hostile to Catholicism (if not quite amenable to Protestantism)? Why can't he see the forest for the trees? Why does he keep arguing about Papias, when even he admits that he didn't abide by sola Scriptura? Why doesn't he then explain why the rule of faith supposedly changed? Why doesn't he show us from Scripture that it was to change later on? If he can't do that, then why does he believe it? Would it not, then, be a mere tradition of men? If Protestants can arbitrarily believe in extrabiblical traditions of men, then why do they give Catholics a hard time for believing traditions that are documented in the Bible itself?

See, I can play Jason's "ask 1000 questions routine: to muddy the whole thing up beyond all hope of resolution" game. I came up with twelve rapid-fire questions. I'm proud of myself! It's kind o' fun, actually, but you do have to type quite a bit and strain your brain to come up with a new hundred questions for any given topic at hand, so that nothing can ever be concluded, as to any given Church father believing anything. Of course I rhetorically exaggerate, but I trust that those who have been following this, get my drift.

Cardinal Newman himself describes Jason's overly skeptical methodology, hitting the nail on the head:

It seems to me to take the true and the normal way of meeting the infidelity of the age, by referring to Our Lord's Person and Character as exhibited in the Gospels. Philip said to Nathanael "Come and see"—that is just what the present free thinkers will not allow men to do. They perplex and bewilder them with previous questions, to hinder them falling under the legitimate rhetoric of His Divine Life, of His sacred words and acts. They say: "There is no truth because there are so many opinions," or "How do you know that the Gospels are authentic?" "How do you account for Papias not mentioning the fourth Gospel?" or "How can you believe that punishment is eternal?" or, "Why is there no stronger proof of the Resurrection?" With this multitude of questions in detail, they block the way between the soul and its Saviour, and will not let it "Come and see."

(Letter of 11 January 1873, in Wilfred Ward's The Life of John Henry Cardinal Newman, Vol. II, chapter 31, p. 393)

I'm not saying Jason is skeptical of Jesus. It is an analogical point. He applies the same method that the skeptics Newman describes, use: only applied to patristic questions.
Probably so (but this is self-evident). I didn't see anyone (let alone myself) making a literal list of what is and what isn't.

Correct. All we're saying is that his methodology does not fit into the Protestant rule of faith. Why is this still being discussed when Jason has already conceded that, and has moved on to another tack in trying to account for that fact?

At this early stage, there will be anomalies and vague things. Newman's theory incorporates those elements within itself. Hence he writes in his Essay on Development of the "Fifth Note of a True Development—Anticipation of Its Future":

It has been set down above as a fifth argument in favour of the fidelity of developments, ethical or political, if the doctrine from which they have proceeded has, in any early stage of its history, given indications of those opinions and practices in which it has ended. Supposing then the so-called Catholic doctrines and practices are true and legitimate developments, and not corruptions, we may expect from the force of logic to find instances of them in the first centuries. And this I conceive to be the case: the records indeed of those times are scanty, and we have little means of determining what daily Christian life then was: we know little of the thoughts, and the prayers, and the meditations, and the discourses of the early disciples of Christ, at a time when these professed developments were not recognized and duly located in the theological system; yet it appears, even from what remains, that the atmosphere of the Church was, as it were, charged with them from the first, and delivered itself of them from time to time, in this way or that, in various places and persons, as occasion elicited them, testifying the presence of a vast body of thought within it, which one day would take shape and position.

We find exactly this sort of thing in Papias. His view is consistent with a Catholic one, that would be far more developed as time proceeded; but not consistent with the Protestant sola Scriptura.

How about the existence of the Old Testament? Or is that no longer considered Scripture by Protestants these days, or adherents of sola Scriptura. We'll have to start calling it sola NT, huh? How about the Gospels and most of Paul's letters, which were accepted as canonical very early: well within Papias' lifetime?

That's not what Eusebius stated. But even if he was, no problem whatever, because I showed (following Eusebius' account) how he also accepted tradition from secondhand witnesses, and that St. Paul refers to fourth-hand reception of apostolic tradition. But of course, that is a part of my paper that Jason conveniently overlooked, per his standard modus operandi of high (and very careful) selectivity in response. We mustn't get too biblical in our analyses, after all. Here is my section (to refresh Jason's memory; perhaps he didn't see it) where I provided St. Paul's approach to tradition (inspired Scripture, after all):

As far as I am concerned, this data alone refutes Jason's position. But he ignored it. He never mentioned Paul once in his current reply. You, the reader, don't have to ignore the Bible, and can incorporate actual relevant biblical data into your informed opinion.

I have often observed in Jason's replies, and have complained about, his method of picking and choosing what he likes (and/or is able) to reply to, thus allowing him to ignore sections that he may have difficulty answering (or where he may have to work too hard to answer, etc.). The present effort is no exception. I thought it was time (especially since Engwer comrade "Whopper" "Whopper" Hays has accused me of systematically avoiding answering Jason), to document the actual objective facts of how much he ignores in any given writing of an opponent that he is grappling with.

The number of words in my previous reply (minus my citations of Jason's words and re-citations of my own past words from his reply; i.e., I am adding up only the black-colored words; also, I skip the final section that was responding to other critics) was 4002.

Jason in this present reply only cites, however, 489 of my own words from the last paper, in order to launch into his present counter-reply.

So we see that he has deliberately chosen to deal with a mere 12% of the total words of my argument: skipping huge, essential parts of it altogether, as if they weren't even there. But I have included and dealt with all of his words and offered some sort of substantive reply (agree or disagree) to all of them, here, and in all five previous papers. I grant my opponents the respect of at least dealing with their total argument, not conveniently skipping over anything and everything that I arbitrarily prejudge as not worthy of reply (or too difficult or embarrassing to reply to). Now, which method is the more impressive and intellectually solid of the two: comprehensiveness or hyper-selectivity?

Right. I gave an elaborate argument, point-by-point, just as I am doing now.

That's right, but Jason has failed in his attempt to prove that anything in Papias is fundamentally at odds with the Catholic view on the rule of faith. Where has he done this? It just isn't there. I haven't seen it. Maybe Jason will travel to Israel and find a new stone tablet that seals his case: primary evidence. Anything is possible. I'd urge him to keep optimistic and not to despair: something, somewhere may prove his anti-Catholic case vis-a-vis Papias once and for all. I won't hold my breath waiting for it, though . . .

I don't know. I'd have to go back and see what I said, in context. I'm too lazy to do that (doin' enough work as it is). But I know that I already adequately explained it, so I recommend that he go read it again (so that he doesn't need to ask me what I meant).

Here we go with the word games . . . As Ronald Reagan famously said to Jimmy Carter, "there you go again . . ." I was referring, of course, to the Christian era, not Adam and Eve, etc.

Very good observation, Jason! But who needs apostles or Scripture, anyway, when you're able to talk directly to God?

Exactly. What this has to do with anything is beyond me, I confess.

No, because Protestants tend to collapse "word of God" to Scripture alone, when in fact, in Scripture, it refers, many more times, to oral proclamation. This is the whole point: Scripture all over the place refers to an authoritative tradition and an authoritative Church. Scripture doesn't teach that it alone is the infallible authority. Sola Scriptura ain't biblical.

Great. I interacted with his arguments, and saw some inconsistencies in them. Implicitly he is opposing, in a way, those Christian traditions that stress tradition, in his pitting of oral history against oral tradition, as I already noted. I say it is "both/and" -- not "either/or."

His position shows no semblance of a Protestant view in the first place, but it is not at all contrary, or even different from the Catholic view. It's simply a primitive Catholic rule of faith: exhibiting exactly what we would expect to see under the assumption of Newmanian, Vincentian development.

Until we see anything that suggests otherwise, which we haven't, that is a perfectly solid position to take.

How is what he did contrary to apostolic succession? It isn't at all. Papias was a bishop, who received Christian tradition from friends or relatives of the apostles. This ain't rocket science. There is nothing complicated about it: much as Jason wants to obfuscate.

Of course I have. Here is what I said the second time around (his past words in purple):

Contrary to what Dave claims, there is no "explicit espousal of apostolic succession" in Papias. And the "living and abiding voice" Papias refers to is a reference to proximate and early testimony that was soon going to die out.

This doesn't rule out apostolic succession; to the contrary, it is a perfect example of it. He talked to people who knew the apostles. His testimony was third-hand. He "received the doctrines of the faith from those who were their [the apostles'] friends." What is that if not succession? It is more or less independent of Scripture. Papias' rule of faith was:

Apostles and apostolic doctrine ---> friends of the apostles ---> Papias

But the Protestant methodology and rule of faith is:

Apostles and apostolic doctrine ---> Scripture ---> Papias and everyone else

The theme Papias is referring to is taken from, among other sources, the historiography of his day. As Bauckham notes, Jerome's rendering of the passage in Papias indicates that he understood Papias as Bauckham does (pp. 27-28).

He says that Jerome understood Papias as referring to access to living witnesses as his preferred mode of collecting information. But as I have already shown, I think, this in no way is inconsistent with Catholic tradition. It's plain common sense. What Jason doesn't mention, however, is Bauckham's observation right after citing Jerome, translating Papias:


Jerome here seems to take Papias to mean that he preferred the oral communication of eyewitnesses to the written records of their testimony in the Gospels.
(p. 28)

And that sounds distinctly unProtestant and contrary to sola Scriptura, doesn't it? If we're gonna mention one aspect of St. Jerome's thought (even if it is falsely thought to bolster some anti-Catholic line of reasoning), why not the other also, even if it doesn't fit in with the game plan? Get the whole picture, in other words.

This is another annoying constant in debates with anti-Catholics: one is forced to simply repeat things three, four, five times or more, because the anti-Catholic seems unable to process them, even after five times. It's as if one is writing to the wind. Three strikes and you're out.

Fair enough. But if we grant this, of course it has no effect on my position: that his views are consistent with the Catholic rule of faith. Either way, it works the same: if he knew the apostles, it was apostolic succession (just more directly). If he didn't, it was still apostolic succession, since that is an ongoing phenomenon. Moreover, as I reiterated again above, Paul refers to apostolic succession from fourth-hand sources. So it is valid apart from necessarily knowing an apostle personally. And knowing one does not, therefore, rule out apostolic succession. It is completely harmonious with it.

St. Paul didn't think so, as I have shown: not in terms of accurate transmission of apostolic tradition.

We go back as far as we can, and we do make judgments as to relative trustworthiness of sources.

What St. Ignatius taught (real presence, episcopacy, etc.) was universal in the early Church, unlike the two things above. Huge, essential difference, but nice try, Jason. The arguments get increasingly desperate. My friend, Jonathan Prejean, made a great comment today on another blog, that has relevance here:

What I would find far more troubling, were I a Protestant, is the new patristics scholarship of the last 40 years, which convincingly demonstrates that, while giving nominal adherence to the ecumencial creeds, Protestants have done so according to the same defective interpretation as the heretics. The modest claims of papal authority, which in any case are not refuted by what you cited (and I've read them), are trivial compared to the fact that the Protestant account of salvation and grace is fundamentally opposed to the Christian account of the Seven Ecumenical Councils. The physical presence (i.e., real presence according to nature) of God in the Church and its necessity for salvation is unanimously agreed by all Catholic and Orthodox Christians, echoing St. Cyril of Alexandria, the great "Seal of the Fathers." Yet Protestants deny it, making the spiritual resemblance to God merely moral (hence, imputed justification) and not physical.

That's a Nestorian account of salvation, plain and simple. And the historical evidence about the heterodoxy of Nestorianism has been piling up over the last couple of decades (see, e.g., J.A. McGuckin, Paul Clayton) after some scholarship suggesting that Nestorius might have been orthodox (mostly based on Nestorius's own erroneous claims; see, e.g., F. Loofs), and therefore, that Calvin's identical beliefs might have been as well. But that has been crushed even more convincingly than the admittedly excessive claims of some Catholics about papal infallibility, and it is a much more serious error in any case. This is why I stopped even bothering with these debates, at least until I saw David [Waltz] wavering, because Newman's prophetic words about being "deep in history" were absolutely vindicated by the neo-patristic scholarship. Protestants today have no hope of being orthodox in the historical sense; they have to redefine orthodoxy to be broad enough to include what they believe (see, e.g., D.H. Williams).

Great. J. N. D. Kelly (also an Anglican patristics scholar) thought that St. Ignatius "seems to suggest that the Roman church occupies a special position" (Early Christian Doctrines, 1978, 191). Brent writes (cited by Jason in his linked previous paper):

Ignatius doesn't make any reference to apostolic succession as later defined by men like Irenaeus and Cyprian and by groups like Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.

This is exactly what we would expect under a thesis of development. Obviously he wouldn't write as explicitly about apostolic succession as it was "later defined." This poses no difficulty for us whatever. It is only a difficulty if one (as Jason habitually does) constructs a straw man of what Catholic development in the late first and early second century supposedly was (far more developed than we should reasonably expect).

The primitive state of development that we expect to find in St. Ignatius is reflected in a Brent remark such as "The low Trinitarianism in Ignatius' letters supports an early date." He also had a "low ecclesiology" because he was so early. But even Jason agrees (in the same former post) that St. Ignatius already in his time had a rather robust Catholic ecclesiology:

I agree with Brent that Ignatius seems to have been trying to convince other churches to adopt or retain his preferred form of church order, involving a monarchical episcopate, thus explaining why he mentions the subject so much in his letters. However, I suspect that the monarchical episcopate was already more widespread than Brent suggests. The truth probably is somewhere between Brent's concept of Ignatius as an innovator and the view that all of the early churches had a monarchical episcopate all along. (Brent prefers not to use the term "monarchical episcopate" when discussing Ignatius' view, but I'm using it in a broad sense, which I think is more common, to refer to having a single bishop who leads the remainder of the church hierarchy.)

It's tough to meet associates of the apostles these days; sorry, Jason. If he builds me a time machine, I'd be more than happy to go talk to them. Probably couldn't afford a ticket, though . . .

The tradition continues being accurately transmitted after the eyewitnesses die out, as St. Paul believed. That's sufficient for me. Jason prefers Brent to me; I prefer St. Paul's opinion on tradition and succession to his.

Yes on both counts, as explained. But the word "explicit" was relative insofar as someone that early can only be so explicit. "Direct" would have been a better term to use in retrospect, because of the meaning of "explicit" in discussions having to do with development of doctrine. I trusted that readers acquainted with the broad parameters of the discussion would understand that, but sure enough, Jason didn't, and so keeps trying to make hay over this non-issue. No doubt he will classify this very paragraph as special pleading or sophistry, but most readers will understand that it is simply clarification of a phrase used.

But since that particular belief isn't a dogmatic one in the first place, it is quite irrelevant. No Catholic is obliged to believe it, or much of anything else in eschatology, as I understand. No one is saying that any given father is infallible, so if he is wrong on that one item, this causes no problem to our view.

He got some things wrong. So what? One could collect a huge bucket of seaweed and other marine items from the sea and discover that a pearl was also part of the collection. The pearl is "transmitted" along with the rest. Not everything in the bucket is equally valuable. Again, this is no problem for us whatever. The real problem is Protestant rejection of beliefs virtually universally held by the fathers, such as, for example, the real presence or baptismal regeneration.

Since we don't hold individual fathers to be infallible, this is much ado about nothing.

The Church in due course makes all sorts of judgments as to what is authentic tradition and what isn't. Jason knows this, but he mistakenly thinks he has scored some sort of point here, so he runs with that ball.

I have done my best to explain. I trust that open-minded readers can be persuaded of some things, and that my efforts are not in vain, in that sense.

10 comments:

Jason Engwer said...

See here for my further response to Dave's unreasonable standards, which he doesn't abide by himself.

Dave Armstrong said...

Unbelievable. Jason apparently will nitpick and major on the minors and obfuscate his way out of this. One either gets the point or they don't, and Jason clearly ain't gonna get it anytime soon.

Oh well. At least it is better than Hays' relentless childish insults and pompous condescension.

Adomnan said...

Jason Engwer: See here for my further response to Dave's unreasonable standards...

Adomnan: More arguing about arguing. This is like a Monty Python skit.

It seems Dave will never succeed in getting pass the wall after wall of rather pointless preliminaries erected by his evasive interlocutor.

Dave Armstrong said...

You can have him, Adomnan! He's all yours. LOL Would you spend your time in debate with a guy who, on average, responds to 20% of your words and arguments and ignores 80%?!

Dave Armstrong said...

By contrast (but equally absurd and objectionable), we have Steve Hays, who (on a good day, if the phase of the moon and barometer are right) will respond to 80% of the opponent's arguments, but add so many rank insults that they amount to 80% of his entire reply. LOL

Adomnan said...

Dave: You can have him, Adomnan!

Adomnan: No thanks! I'll converse with Ken occasionally, when he visits your blog; but that's it. Ken will at least discuss real issues, not just argue for argument's sake. The rest of the Triablogue tribe can stay on their reservation, as I'm sure they will.

Dave: Would you spend your time in debate with a guy who, on average, responds to 20% of your words and arguments and ignores 80%?!

Adomnan: I wouldn't engage with Mr. Engwer if he responded to 100% of my arguments. I'm not as patient as you are. I find his prose labored and tedious and his logic strained and circular. As you once observed, Dave, there's no point in debating someone you don't take seriously.

Adomnan said...

Dave: By contrast (but equally absurd and objectionable), we have Steve Hays,

Adomnan: Steve Hays writes like a bright, but bratty, 15-year-old. How old is he? If he's over 18, scratch the "bright."

Why should anyone waste his time arguing with a mouthy kid (or someone who acts like a kid)?

Dave Armstrong said...

He's 49 or 50, as I recall.

Dave Armstrong said...

Now that my comments are being regularly deleted over there, it's a rather moot point, anyway, even if I suspended my no-debate policy to wrangle with "Whopper" Hays.

Marylee said...

John MacArthur & Pretrib Rapture

Who knows, maybe John (Reformedispy) MacArthur is right and the greatest Greek scholars (Google "Famous Rapture Watchers"), who uniformly said that Rev. 3:10 means PRESERVATION THROUGH, were wrong. But John has a conflict. On the one hand, since he knows that all Christian theology and organized churches before 1830 believed the church would be on earth during the tribulation, he would like to be seen as one who stands with the great Reformers. On the other hand, if John has a warehouse of unsold pretrib rapture material, and if he wants to have "security" for his retirement years and hopes that the big California quake won't louse up his plans, he has a decided conflict of interest. Maybe the Lord will have to help strip off the layers of his seared conscience which have grown for years in order to please his parents and his supporters - who knows? One thing is for sure: pretrib is truly a house of cards and is so fragile that if a person removes just one card from the TOP of the pile, the whole thing can collapse. Which is why pretrib teachers don't dare to even suggest they could be wrong on even one little subpoint! Don't you feel sorry for the straitjacket they are in? While you're mulling all this over, Google "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty" for a rare behind-the-scenes look at the same 180-year-old fantasy.