How would I get through any day if I didn't come across nonsense written about me? The Internet is a cesspool of such uncharitable speculations about the nature and motivations of others. It's the opposite of Christian love. If the speculations are false, this is an example of gossip and slander. Even if the things stated are true, the way these things are usually discussed online, behind people's backs (or with a pronounced herd mentality, if the recipient dares to disagree in the venue where the chit-chat was initiated), is a sin, because it helps others form negative opinions and impressions of another person.
Before going further [this is added later than the original post], I want to note with pleasure and gratefulness, that the author of the comments at my expense, that I originally documented and objected to, has retracted, writing, "Removed at the request of author, with apologies to Mr. Armstrong." I accept that (thank you), and as in all such cases, I have reciprocated by removing the words that were retracted from public view, from my site, since it is now a resolved and closed matter.
That said, the thoughts expressed are still apparently held by many (?) other folks, regarding myself and other non-"traditionalist" orthodox Catholics, and so I want to make some sort of general response, hoping that some good and increased mutual understanding can come of it. For example, I'm one of six individuals mentioned in the Wikipedia article, "Neo-Catholicism," as supposed examples of "neo-Catholics."
As to the charge that I and other Catholic apologists (often converts) are overly influenced by our Protestant backgrounds, I am utterly despised by many from the small, fringe anti-Catholic Protestant Internet community, because I have opposed their errors (see some of the delightful things they write about me on the bottom of my sidebar). It's quite a feat to be described in this fashion when one has specifically rejected falsehoods of Protestantism, converted to Catholicism, and has written many critical articles, and indeed, several books, too, about the errors of Protestantism; and to be called (not infrequently) "anti-Protestant" and "anti-Luther," etc. Can anyone explain to me how both things can be true?
If I am viewed as "Americanistic" or prone to Americanism, to the point of this conflicting with my Catholicism, I must say that is highly amusing to me, since I am on record stating that America is the wickedest nation in the history of the world. I despise the greed and excess of corporate capitalism, and am virtually a Chestertonian distributist in economics: a position beloved by many "traditionalists." Just two days ago I wrote in a combox on my blog: "Catholic social thought is correctly viewed as a "third way" that is not by any means identical to American capitalism." In referring to criticism of Pope Leo XIII's famous encyclical Rerum Novarum, I described that as "the capitalist blind spot."
"James 02" weighs in on 28 July 2009. His observations, if applied to me, as a supposed example of a "neo-Catholic" (as the authors of the Wikipedia article wrongly think) -- are false:
By the way, if you meant "what is a Neo-Catholic", then a Neo-Cath is a Catholic that suffers from false obedience and the heresy that a Pope or Council is infallible in everything they say or do. It was a term that was desperately needed.
Let me give you an example. A liberal "Catholic" will support altar girls because they oppose the idea that men should have authority over women, and therefore see it as furthering their agenda. A neo-Catholic supports altar girls because the Pope reversed himself and said it is allowed, therefore it has to be "right". It is hard to call the second group "liberal", even though they support "liberal" things in the Church. So we differentiate them from heretics by calling them Neo-Catholics.
Anyone who believes what is described in the first paragraph is simply an uninformed Catholic (frankly, a "dumb" one), who understands little about how Catholic authority works. To use my own example, I obviously don't believe this since I supported the Iraq War, which was opposed by the present pope and the previous one (and have explained at length my rationale for that within a Catholic perspective). I also support capital punishment in extreme cases, and that was opposed by Pope John Paul II, though not in an absolute fashion.
Moreover, I have written for years about how there are instances when a pope can be disagreed with or rebuked (examples: one / two / three). Indeed, I have an entire section on my Papacy Index Page, entitled, "Disagreeing With Popes". Because "traditionalists" often criticize popes far more than they should, they feel a need to caricature criticism of that tendency as the extreme in the other direction (blind obedience in every jot and tittle; no conceivable criticism or dissent at all). A recent exchange with a "traditionalist" illustrates my true opinion:
to criticize his prudence in matters of jurisdiction for example, (leaving bad bishops such as confessed homo activist Weakland in place even after the same offered his resignation, or promoting bad bishops) or questioning the fruits of his pontificate with respect to monumental tradition is hardly "trashing him".
I agree. It is mostly the overall tenor and presumptuousness of many trad critiques that I object to. My position is not that one can never criticize a pope. I've written about that many times, and my view has often been distorted with regard to that.
My point is that it must be done with the utmost seriousness by a person who is qualified to do so, not just any person who has a blog and has only been a Catholic for a couple of years, or is just now coming to understand his faith.
A few days later, I clarified further. Note that again I stated that one can disagree with a pope in the right circumstances. This is not blind obedience or "hyper-infallibility" or what one might call ultramontanism:
I just think it is silly for any Tom, Dick, or Harry to be judging decisions made by popes and ecumenical councils. In my opinion, "trads" exhibit an extraordinary lack of proportion and proper Catholic humility. Everything is liable to "trad" judgment, as if everyone is on the same plane as the pope is. This is preposterous, and it is pseudo-Protestantism, where all is equal in the end and there is no distinction of hierarchy. . . . .
There is a proper time for criticism and disagreement even with a pope, but "trads" continually do not understand when that is. They lack prudence, propriety, and proportion to a huge degree.
Even if some of the criticisms are warranted, legitimate, and have real force, it is altogether debatable whether such critical materials ought to be aired publicly. Of course, with the Internet, everything has to be public.
Also, on 3 October 2009, I wrote:
I agreed that criticizing certain prudential decisions of Pope John Paul is permissible. What I object to is the knee-jerk reaction, which is usually according to one's preconceived notions and biases, whatever they are. To me that indicates a lack of respect both for the pope and for the document he has produced. . . .
You seem to think private judgment is whenever someone makes a commentary on a prudential decision by someone in the hierarchy.
I obviously don't mean that because I agreed recently that this is permissible to do. My problem is with the quick, knee-jerk judgment and doing all this publicly. The pope is a little different from the next blogger or some apologist on TV, is he not?
As for altar girls, it was written: "A neo-Catholic supports altar girls because the Pope reversed himself and said it is allowed, therefore it has to be 'right'."
Wrong again in my case. I don't "support" altar girls in terms of preference. I have attended a parish for over 18 years that has never had them (and we have altar rails and receive on the tongue, and never have EMHCs, and have Latin Mass every week, including the Tridentine, and have strongly pro-life homilies, such as occurred yesterday, etc.). Nor would I say that everyone has to have this opinion just because the pope said so. At the same time I am not "knee jerk against" the notion, as "traditionalists" are, as if it is some huge sin and intrinsically "liberal" if a little girl serves the altar.
I give enough benefit of the doubt to Pope John Paul to grant that he had some rationale for what he did. I have read that he allowed altar girls, but at the same time issued strong proclamations (infallible in the ordinary magisterium) that there would never be female priests. Thus, the liberal rationale and "plot" of first having altar girls, to suggest a connection between that and female priests (just as altar boys often become priests) was undercut from the outset. I've written elsewhere:
Some have argued, beyond that, that having exclusively altar boys leads to a certain "environment" that fosters more priestly vocations. That may be (I don't know).
If a boy feels called to the priesthood, I think he will arrive at that divinely-aided knowledge and resolve for reasons other than the mere fact that he was an altar server, or due to vigorous "recruiting" efforts from his priest, and (conversely) that he would not miss his calling merely because he served the altar with girls. To argue in this way demeans (in my opinion) the very nature of vocation, which is not nearly that trivial of a thing, in terms of how one ascertains it. Just my opinion, for whatever little it is worth, that carries no authority whatsoever . . .
There can be such a thing as an altar girl, just as there can be a female reader. I have no intrinsic objection to that. But my reasoning is not based on "the pope said it, so it is infallible, and there is no possible dissent." It is the "traditionalist" position that is simplistic, not mine.
But there was a ray of light in the thread, and a few people started objecting to the foolishness and lack of charity of false labeling:
"Jacafamala": I just can't stomach the mean spiritedness of it all sometimes. Like somebody's not up to snuff, somebody can't be in the trad club because of this or that. So silly.
"QuisUtDeus" [Forum Owner]: The more disturbing thing is that oftentimes these labels don't restrict themselves to saying you're a bad "Trad" or whatnot, but they imply (or outright state in the case of Steve's description of a "Neo-Trad") that you're heretical or schismatic in some way which is a pretty damning charge and more than mean-spirited. So, I agree there's a huge negative aspect to labels as well. . . .
Neo-Catholic and Traditional Catholic can be useful and not for mudslinging. One group supports the reform-of-the-reform and the other supports a return to pre-Vatican II liturgies, etc. It's only when someone decides in their own minds to say Neo-Catholic = Modernist and Traditional Catholic = Schismatic that the labels become ugly and also outright lies.
So when will I stop being called a "neo-Catholic" and held up as an example of it in the silly Wikipedia article? It's a matter of truthfulness and accuracy and ethical integrity and principle. I have written elsewhere about the vapid inanity of the terms "neo-Catholic" and "neo-conservative" as used by self-described "traditionalists":




19 comments:
Oh dear I seem to be both a Neo-Catholic (being a reform of a reform type of guy, realising that you can't reverse 40yrs of crummy catechises overnight, accepting the validity of the N.O and supporting the Holy Father in his effort to restore the riches of the Church) and schismatic traditionalist (having a Strong preference for the 'old' liturgy, wishing the Pope would use the sedia gestatoria, observing meatless fridays and not using the lumionous mysteries).
Guess I'm a raving schiztophrenic then, Oh well :)
Well I'm proud to be there with ya in the "neo" loony bin. I've been declared nuts by one of the goofier, in over his head anti-Catholics, too, so what else is new?! LOL
I get so tired of the Traditionalists because most of them are just cradle Catholics who think that their time in the Church makes them better than converts.
If you use the bible to support Catholicism, or you're a Protestant convert, you don't get to be 'Catholic' you get to be "neo-Catholic". We're the ones who have gone through Hell and back to join the Church, lose friends, alienate family, and it seems that nothing we ever do is good enough for the Traddies, they think we're always secretly hiding some form of residual Protestantism. Give us a break (rant from a former Baptist, who was converted largely because of 'Neo-Catholics' / converts)
... I guess Newman, Chesterton, Waugh, and Tolkien were all Neo-Catholic converts from Protestantism too, well we're in good company.
And let us not forget St. Augustine of Hippo a convert him self from a proto-protestant sect.
Well, if some of these guys insist on calling me a "neo-Catholic" then for my part, I humbly request that they at least make sure that what they think is true of me is actually true. A little bit of accuracy never hurt anyone.
The term and the insinuations of it is dumb enough, but when the facts don't even line up, and I am publicly accused of things that aren't even true, then it is a bit much.
And that's why I wrote this post, to show that there is not even rudimentary fact-checking taking place. You'd think that would cause folks to reconsider and not be so judgmental of others.
No one need wonder about my opinions, with 2400+ papers out there for all to see and read.
Yet myths stubbornly persist. Well, we do what we can do to promote both truthfulness and charity amongst fellow Catholics.
If I hadn't dealt with a number of sedevacantists recently, I would say this was shocking, but amongst those who have separated themselves from living tradition, it is par for the course sadly.
I can see what he is trying to say, and why he gets it all wrong (apart from not doing any research about you). There is a feeling amongst certain trads that certain conservative apologists in the mainstream are in their lex orandi closer to protestantism, because they associate them with the Novus Ordo's worst extrinsic celebrations. Part of this is seen in those who are influenced by the spirit of all or nothing. Either the Novus Ordo is invalid, or it is valid but evil, and those who defend it are crypto-protestants.
Breaking people of the mindset is hard to do, especially if they are raised in a culture which believes it is a remnant. Worse, it goes well beyond the point made in the Great Facade, although the term was ill-coined and ill-used in my estimation. This goes way beyond thinking the traditional Mass is better, and frankly I want to apologize on behalf of those trads who want all Catholics to be able to experience the Church's tradition.
Don't worry, Dave. As a lifelong Catholic, I'm way too Protestant for some people because I wear pants. And they don't care if pre-medieval popes explicitly told the Bulgars that women are fine to wear pants, because they are more Catholic and more traditional than some mere pope of the realllllly olden days.
OTOH, I think most of the time when people make remarks like this, they are treating you as a Renowned Public Figure and not as a fellow netizen who might want to argue. If I say something narsty about Obama or Dan Brown, it would never occur to me to link to the White House or Dan Brown's publisher website. It would be silly for me to do so. You are being treated the same way, by which you may infer that you are Famous.
Let's pray for the brother of the prodigal son.
So meanspirited they are-so UnCatholic
And I feel it hurtful that they show so little understanding or concern for the very very difficult emotional strains involved in converting.
I speak as a cradle catholic myself.
It is a huge strain. There is a protestant pastor who brought his whole Church into the Catholic faith, he lost colleagues, lifelong friends, he lost official ministry, and even family.
When Newman converted he lost friends and then because he was misunderstood was ill-treated by the restored hierarchy in England.
However, adopting a Traditional or traditionalist position can cause similar divisions. I have family that won't talk to me for the simple reason that I attend a Latin Mass. I'm not with the spirit or something. I know a man who was disowned by his entire family because he married a traditionalist, who is also a good Catholic (we're not speaking of someone with an invalid SSPX marriage or something). It can go both ways.
What we need is charity, not this kind of rhetoric. The art of debating has been completely lost, and people such as this poor fool don't know how to distinguish from things intellectually and how he perceives it in his appetites, which is to say he's hyper-emotional. It can't be I merely disagree with this fellow for propositions "x", it has to be he's not a real Catholic.
I think much of the anger from one group to the other is the fact that Trads and cradle Catholics (who actually know their Faith) place an incredible amount of of importance on the Liturgy and rightly so. While it seems a lot of times that converts though as orthodox as they may be tend to not acknowledge it or even give it much of a thought.
Which extends to the problem I have currently with Mark Shea. Though I think he is an outstanding spokesman for the Faith his lack of interest, or rather nonchalant attitude towards the Liturgy is sometimes frustrating and I admit I have over reacted many times on his blog.
Athanasuis says-
'I know a man who was disowned by his entire family because he married a traditionalist, who is also a good Catholic'
What could that possibly mean?
The Holy Roman Traditionalist Church?
Did they marry by Traditionalist ristes?
I've been out of town for five days, celebrating my 25th anniversary; hence my lack of comments.
What could that possibly mean?
The Holy Roman Traditionalist Church?
Did they marry by Traditionalist ristes?
No, his family was novus ordo, and she attended and FSSP parish and prefers the Traditional Mass to the Novus Ordo. A capital sin for some people, just as certain off balance trads react the same with those who attend the Novus Ordo.
I agree. It is stupid or asinine for either party to react in this way. Live and let live. Worship and let worship.
I discovered that the comments I originally critiqued in this post have been retracted, with an apology.
Therefore, I accepted this gesture and deleted them from the post, per my ongoing policy in such cases. The person is no longer named in my post.
I have revised the post accordingly, and have made a general response to several charges I have been accused of by others, or by implication, showing how the truth is pretty much the exact opposite in my case.
This person realized he made a mistake and issued a classy retraction, but there are still others (of unknown quantity) who labor under these misconceptions, as indicated by the Wikipedia article that lists me (among only six people) as a supposed "Neo-Catholic."
One can only supply facts. I'm the world's biggest expert on my own opinions and motivations, after all. What people do with the info. is up to them. "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink . . ."
Truth and accuracy never hurt anyone. It's in anyone's self-interest to get things right. This effort is not about ME; it is about the importance of accuracy in public pronouncements, and about charity towards one another (including an avoidance of misrepresentation, calumny, gossip, etc.).
We all need to strive to do this.
I've also discovered that the Wikipedia article "Neo-Catholicism" has been modified in a more truthful direction with regard to myself. One editor wrote:
"I removed the block quote of Dave Armstrong because he denies that he intended the meaning attributed to him: see http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2009/06/am-i-neo-catholic-my-belief-concerning.html)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Neo-Catholicism&action=history
I certainly meant what I stated in the now-removed quote, but it in no way proves that I am a "neo-Catholic" according to the definition of that term held by its proponents.
He cites an article of mine from four months ago, but it is hard not to suspect that my present post had something to do with it, since it was posted on October 5th, and the revision occurred on October 6th (coincidentally my 25th anniversary). Previous editing occurred on 5-19-09.
Ironically, in another addition, I am actually presented as holding a view antithetical to neo-Catholics:
"This belief that the Pope in his behaviors and personal opinions is beyond criticism has caused some Catholics to accuse Neo-Catholics of "Papolatry" or "Pope-worship". Other Catholics cite the actions and words of St. Paul,[citation needed] St. Athanasius,[citation needed] and St. Catherine of Siena[6] as good Catholics who critized the actions and / or words of a Pope, arguing that at times criticism of a Pope is not only allowed, but obligatory."
Footnote 6 goes to my article, "Laymen Advising and Rebuking Popes."
Nevertheless, I am listed under the subtitle, "Notable Neo-Catholic Apologists."
So the article continues to present contradictory and demonstrably false information pertaining to yours truly.
I don't edit Wikipedia articles (never have and probably never will), so it remains the burden of someone who holds this position to go in and edit me out of it completely, as a supposed example, out of concern for accuracy or ethical principle.
The whole thing is asinine, stupid, and divisive, of course. The entire article should be taken down. But baby steps are better than nothing done at all and we rejoice in any progress at all in these matters.
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