David, hello from an old friend. I'd be very happy to have you as a guest on our weekly 90 minute webcast which has in a short time received over 2,700 listens from visitors in some 17 nations.
Apologists like yourself serve all Catholics well and it won't hurt to have yet another opportunity to advertise your website and books?
It would focus entirely on Fundamentalists-Evangelical issues, positive and negative, contemporary and historical; it would be very conversational, easy, no ambush questions or issues.
Call me or write if you think you might be interested?
Thanks for your consideration and you might visit the webcast page to hear the style of the conversations with people of all theological bents...
Dear Dave Armstrong, I just received your new book. Thank you so much for a great amount of valuable information that we can share with other.
I compiled a "Parish Evangelization Education" text and am looking for someone to help me get it published. I sent it to Sophia Institute but the leading publisher said "make it happen in the parishes first" What should I do? We are now waiting for a new Bishop here is Austin Texas .
It was entertaining (though at bottom, depressing) reading. You did an excellent job. Kudos.
I went through the same runaround with Engwer on SS and the Fathers years ago. It was a big public debate at CARM (probably the largest Protestant discussion forum). He split right in the middle of it, and I was on his ground: anti-Catholic territory.
At least he is cordial. I'll give him that much. Hays is a bigoted slanderer, as we saw yet again. He goes to personal attack right away in most "debates" he is in.
I commend you for your patience. I have lost all of mine with anti-Catholics, and ignore them now, except for the historically important Protestant founders.
Hi, I am The editor/writer with medicine-worldwide.net. I really liked your site and i am interested in building a relationship with your site. We want to spread public awareness. I hope you can help me out. Your site is a very useful resource.
Please email me back with your URL in subject line to take a step ahead and also to avoid spam.
Thank you, Maria Jones maria.medicineworld@gmail.com www.medicine-worldwide.net
Dear Mr. Armstrong, I stumbled upon your blog, and was intrigued. I am also a convert from Protestantism. But, it seems from looking at your blog, that our experiences are very, very, different. After conversion, to the Catholic Faith,my husband and i came to see that the Catholic Church, at least the Church that is most visible for all to see, simply, is not. After taking the steps of being baptized, and going through a thing, that was supposed to be catechism(really a very loose therapy session), we realized,that even though, some things, were Catholic, or just looked Catholic, many things(the most important things), simply were not. The past several years have been like traveling down a funnel, where the Church, upon the Earth, has gotten smaller and smaller, simply because, so many have fallen, so many have believed lies, instead of thousands of years of infallible, solemn teachings that have been preserved for all of good will to see.
You seem like a man, who looks at things, and reasons them out, and who seeks the truth. So, why aren't you not noticing that most people who say that they are Catholic, are not. Why haven't you noticed, that even men who call themselves, "Priest", aren't even Catholic? Why do you still recognize the last few men who called themselves, "Pope", as such? Since, only Catholics can be such a thing...
The visible impostors that call themselves Catholic, and claim at the same time, that there is salvation outside of the Catholic Church, whilst paying reverent, respect to false religions, cannot be Catholic, as they are heretical in their false beliefs. This kind of heresy, as i'm sure you know, automatically excommunicates from the Catholic Church. And, as i'm sure you can guess, if they are excommunicated from the Catholic Church, they can have no hope for salvation, unless they abjure their heresy, and reconcile themselves to God, and all of His saving truth, through the One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church.
Please, do take the time to write, as i'm very eager to hear what you might have to say about this...
I will pray for you tonight, hoping that you will have eyes to see and ears to hear...
If you are a sedevacantist, there are a few papers about that on that page. I don't waste my time arguing about it, since I regard it as an utterly absurd position.
From what I can tell, reading their website, they are Christians, though they're not very specific about their doctrinal beliefs.
Generally, I am cautiously skeptical about any group that talks about "we just follow Jesus" and is very vague about their doctrine. That leaves a door wide open for possible heretical beliefs.
Communes of this sort are notorious for leadership abuse and eccentric belief-systems, even if they begin with perfectly good intentions..
This is Hannah Bevills, Editor for Christian.com which is a social network made specifically for Christians, by Christians, to directly fulfill Christian's needs. We embarked on this endeavor to offer the ENTIRE christian community an outlet to join together as one (no matter denomination) and better spread the good word of Christianity. Christian.com has many great features aside from the obvious like christian TV, prayer request or even find a church/receive advice. We have emailed you because we have interest in collaborating with you and your blog to help us spread the good word. I look forward to an email regarding the matter, Thanks!
God Bless |Hannah Bevills|Christian.com| hannah.bevills@gmail.com
I posted this elsewhere, I think, but I lost the post.
I just started reading "A Biblical Defense of Catholicism," I just finished the first chapter and have a couple of statements/questions for you.
You mention in there that the reference to scripture would have only alluded to the old testament. However, among the early church, it was held that the writings of Paul were of equal importance to the Old Testament. We see this in 2 Peter 3:16 where Peter equates scripture to Paul's writings. So, in reality, it would have been the Gospels/Hebrews/Acts/1,2,3 John/Revelation/etc. that were in question. Not the Pauline, am I wrong to say this?
Secondly, you said that the 2 Timothy 3:16 passage does not tell us that scripture alone is sufficient. But, I believe it does. It says that ALL scripture is profitable for EVERY good work. So, if it can supply us for every good work, isn't scripture sufficient enough?
Of Mike and Men said... Secondly, you said that the 2 Timothy 3:16 passage does not tell us that scripture alone is sufficient. But, I believe it does. It says that ALL scripture is profitable for EVERY good work. So, if it can supply us for every good work, isn't scripture sufficient enough? Hi Mike . Look,the first question which you asked to Dave , should prove to you that scripture alone is not enough . If scripture alone is enough , then how come Peter is warning that in Paul`s writings there are many things difficult and hard to understand?And who decides what and how the words of Paul are correctly understood?And also in your first question , could you please show us a complete list of Paul`s writings which Peter mentioned?Peter only said in all of his writings,but it was the Church which told us which are the writings of Paul , the same as it is the Church which teaches us the true meanings of the scriptures and not any private individual and private interpretations , in fact in the same epistle from which you quoted 2 Pet. 1:20 , Peter is specificaly saying that (Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.)so as you can see scriptures should not be privatly interpreted , that`s the duty of the Church to whom our Lord gave the authority to tell us,teach us and protect and interpret the word of God .Because without authority you will only have confusion and our God is not the author of confusion and sola scriptura causes confusion so sola scriptura is not from God . I mean come on just look around you and see the divisions and confusion and hatred which sola scriptura has caused , not to mention relativism and many other things . GBU and i encourage you to keep reading ,praying and asking
I would suggest that 2 Timothy 3:16-17 does not say scripture is profitable for every good work, but rather that teaching, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness (in short, one's upbringing and education) equip a man for every good work. Scripture is "profitable" to this education. I don't see any statement about scripture being sufficient, only that it is useful for educative purposes.
Moreover, Paul is writing to Timothy as a pastor, and so he is speaking of the usefulnss of scripture in a pastor's education. Although scripture study is profitable to people in other ways of life as well, that is not the point Paul is making here.
Hi Gagefit . I humbly believe that the paragraph explains itself very clearly . The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81 And about the facts that we become gods , this word is not at all alien to scriptures , for example in John 10:34 this is what our Lord Jesus himself who is the truth and never lies said :Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, [1] I said, ye are gods?and again in John 10:35 He continues :If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken), and you do of course know that these words are taken from Psalm 82:6 , I said, Ye are gods, And all of you sons of the Most High. So as you can see , we dont become God in the sense your protestant friend wants to understand it , but in the sens explained in the same paragraph,that we become partakers because we enter into communion with God .Christ who is truly God and truly one , when we are baptised , we become members of His body which is the Church , Christ and His Church are one . GBU
One more thing . Do you remember Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden?they wanted to become God , they wanted to decide what is right and what is wrong instead of trusting God and obeying Him , and that`s why they fell . But now , it is thrue grace , thrue this undeserved unmerited supernatural gift of God , that we enter into communion with God and become adopted sons of God and partakers of the divine natures . So just as our Lord Jesus Christ is God and the only begotten Son of God , we the Christians are also sons of God but again adopted , and because when we are one with Jesus Christ , in this sense also the word of the Cathechism of saint Athanasius (God)must be understood . In fact the orthodox still use the word (divinised ) because of this divine sonship that we received thrue the only begoteen son of God , our Lord Jesus Christ . GBU
Thank you for the responses. From what I have read, I am understanding that to be "partakers of the divine nature" is a statement that articulates our union with Christ, our divine sonship, our conformity to the image and likeness of Christ, and the infusion of the Holy Spirit within us. I understand that this happens through the sacraments, most especially in the Eucharist. Is this understanding correct?
Would it be correct to say that the statements made by Aquinas and Athanasius are overstatements of how closely we are united with Christ. Because although we are united to the Divine nature and conformed to Christ's image and likneness, we don't actually become part of or transform into God.
It is not a literal equation with God; it is a pungent, striking way to express profound union with God, made possible by the Eucharist, the Indwelling, regeneration, etc.
I appreciate your website and have learned a lot from it. I will however like to admonish you to keep an open mind, and stray from comments like "I commend you for your patience. I have lost all of mine with anti-Catholics, and ignore them now, except for the historically important Protestant founders." This to me is highly defensive and makes your arguments harder to believe. Also the mud-slinging done between Mr. White and yourself seems quite un-christian on both parts. I feel like such intellects could be put to better use than merely chicken fighting over issues such as the communion of Saints and Purgatory.
Thanks for your site reply to me here josiah.goodrum@gmail.com
Hi Dave: Something that keeps coming up in conversations with my Protestant brothers in regard to the Eucharist:
THe objection goes: "Jesus said to do this in REMEMBRANCE of ME, NOT 'adore me' in the Eucharist!" (meaning, it was intended merely as a symbolic reminder and nothing else).
My Protestant friend is rather obsessed with the literalness of the word "remembrance", while denying the literalness of Jesus's words: "this is my body; this is my blood"
Could you elaborate more on the understanding of "Remembrance" here?
Also: Perhaps you could point me to some strong resources on "eucharistic adoration". What is the Biblical, historical basis for this in the church?
Adoration follows from the fact of Christ being truly present in the consecrated host. Therefore, it goes back top the biblical basis for believing in the real, substantial presence, and I provide those in many papers on my Eucharist page.
As for the Eucharist (Jesus) vs. the Holy Spirit: that's simply a Protestant false dichotomy. In any event, Jesus made it clear that if we didn't partake of the Eucharist, we have no life in us (John 6). Every Christian is already indwelt by the Holy Spirit. That's a given.
Received into the Catholic Church in 1991; conversion story in Surprised by Truth (1994). Articles: The Catholic Answer, This Rock, Envoy, & others. Many radio appearances incl. Catholic Answers Live & Faith & Family Live. My website / blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, has been online since February 1997, & contains more than 2500 papers (including 50+ separate web pages & 625+ dialogues). Sophia Institute Press has published five of my 30 books: A Biblical Defense of Catholicism (2003), The Catholic Verses (2004), The One-Minute Apologist (2007), Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths (2009), & The Quotable Newman (editor: 2012). I'm co-author (with Dr. Paul Thigpen) of The New Catholic Answer Bible (Our Sunday Visitor: 2005), & editor for The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton (Saint Benedict Press / TAN Books: 2009) & author of 100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura (Catholic Answers, 2012). Happily married to Judy since October 1984 (3 sons & a daughter).
To the best of my knowledge, all of my theological writing is "orthodox" and not contrary to the official dogmatic and magisterial teaching of the Catholic Church. In the event of any (unintentional) doctrinal or moral error on my part having been undeniably demonstrated to be contrary to the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church, I will gladly and wholeheartedly submit to the authority and wisdom of the Church (Matthew 28:18-20; 1 Timothy 3:15).
All material contained herein is written by Dave Armstrong (all rights reserved) unless otherwise noted. Please retain full copyright, URL, and author information when downloading and/or forwarding this material to others. This information is intended for educational, spiritual enrichment, recreational, non-profit purposes only, and is not to be exchanged for monetary compensation under any circumstances (Exodus 20:15-16).
Discussion Policy, Socratic Philosophy, and Rah-Rahs
Most people I've had discussions with on this blog have been and continue to be very kindly . . . even though we have dissenting views. I appreciate it from everyone and continue to thank Dave for hosting this and welcoming us Protestants. . . . We often have extremely differing views, but I've rarely been treated harshly. I thoroughly enjoy coming here and discussing stuff with y'all.
--- "Grubb" (evangelical Protestant regular on this blog), 12-11-06 and 2-13-07
I keep coming back here, because conversation at other Catholic-Protestant discussion blogs tends to get venomously anti-Catholic [with] ad hominem attacks on anyone who doesn't agree with the blogmaster and his pool of apparatchiks, whether the dissenter is Catholic OR Protestant. Cor ad cor loquitur is something of an internet anomaly: we engage in virtually ANY discussion without being censored and yet still manage for it not to get profane, something I rarely (if ever) see anywhere else on the net.
---"Jon" (Catholic)
I find your site very refreshing and very informative . . . It's nice to find people who realize that being ecumenical doesn't mean ignoring important differences in doctrine, but rather means celebrating all that we have in common, while holding fast to all dogma. Your defenses of Catholicism are very well-written and very thought-provoking.
--- Baptist seminary student
Dave Armstrong writes me really nice letters when I ask questions. As someone ridiculed by the arsonists [Phil Johnson's blog], I have to have a liking for the guy. Really, his notes to me are always first class and very respectful and helpful. . . . Dave Armstrong has continued to answer my questions in respectful and helpful ways. I thank the Lord for him.
--- The late Michael Spencer (evangelical Protestant), aka "The Internet Monk", on the Boar's Head Tavern site, 27 and 29 September 2007
Dave . . . rises to any challenges against the Catholic faith coming his way. He's exhaustive, punctilious and for most of his adversaries, quite aggravating. He's the Catholic that no one can seem to shut up, and this grates on the nerves of anti-Catholic controversialists, whether of the scholarly kind, or of demagogues, bigots, and sophists. Dave will perform a real analysis of their postulates, atomize their arguments into individual thought components, and judge every single one individually on its merits, and also within their literary context. Anti-Catholics lose patience very quickly under this kind of scrutiny; many of them escape it by attacking Dave personally.
--- Pedro Vega (Catholic), 11 June 2005 on his blog, after we met [link]
Who is this Dave Armstrong? What is he really like? Well, he is affable, gentle, sweet, easily pleased, very appreciative, and affectionate . . . I was totally unprepared for the real guy. He's a teddy bear, cuddly and sweet. Doesn't interrupt, sits quietly and respectfully as his wife and/or another woman speaks at length. Doesn't dominate the conversation. Just pleasantly, cheerfully enjoys whatever is going on about him at the moment and lovingly affirms those in his presence. Most of the time he has a relaxed, sweet smile.
--- Becky Mayhew (Catholic), 9 May 2009, on the Coming Home Network Forum
Dave Armstrong is a former Protestant Catholic who is in fact blessedly free of the kind of "any enemy of Protestantism is a friend of mine" coalition-building we've been discussing . . . he's pro-Catholic (naturally) without being anti-Protestant (or anti-Orthodox, for that matter).
---"CPA": Lutheran professor of history [seehis site]: unsolicited remarks of 12 July 2005
Thanks again for the great work you're doing for Christ and His Church.
--- Dr. Scott Hahn (Catholic apologist)
You are one of the most thoughtful and careful apologists out there.
--- Dr. Edwin Tait (Anglican Church historian)
I am reading your stuff since I think it is the most thorough and perhaps the best defense of Catholicism out there.
I have had many run-ins with Dave via email and he has been nothing but respectful and kind to me. He has shown me great respect despite knowing full well that I disagree with him on the essential issues.
--- Sam Shamoun (Reformed apologist who specializes in outreach to Muslims)
I can testify to [Dave's] friendship with non-Catholic Christians personally; we built a good friendship when I was Anglican. He has always treated me with respect, never was he arrogant, triumphalistic or anything like that.
--- Bret Bellamy (Catholic)
I genuinely appreciate those few, like Dave . . . who are interested in the discussion in terms of both explaining their own views well and thoroughly and pushing people to do the same with their own. Based on my experience in this case, forming a dialogue successfully is like pulling teeth, no matter how sincere your motives. Of course, that just makes what Dave and others do (and the amount of effort it requires) look all the more impressive!
--- Jonathan Prejean (Catholic apologist)
I admire, as ever, your fantastic and penetrating work.
--- Patrick Madrid (Catholic apologist)
You are a very friendly adversary who really does try to do all things with gentleness and respect. For this I praise God. --- Nathan Rinne (Lutheran apologist [LC-MS] )
I like your style of writing. You get to the point and hit the high points right off the bat. You seem to understand that Catholics often have tiny children running around, thus, no time to muddle through something labor-intensive and ultra-heady. There's a reason some of us aren't in seminary. :) ---Cori Hyland (Catholic)
I think it's important you know that what you do affects real people and changes perspectives and lives. I think your work is ESSENTIAL. Your website and books have been invaluable for my own learning. Your works give me hope and certitude.
--- Chris Norfolk (Catholic convert)
All of your books are now incorporated into my Logos [Bible Software] program. You have a very impressive body of apologetics. Bravo!
--- Steve Ray (Catholic Apologist; personal letter of 17 May 2012)
28 comments:
Saint John Bosco Parish Mbonge
If you can make a small donation, then God bless you. Thank you.
David, hello from an old friend. I'd be very happy to have you as a guest on our weekly 90 minute webcast which has in a short time received over 2,700 listens from visitors in some 17 nations.
Apologists like yourself serve all Catholics well and it won't hurt to have yet another opportunity to advertise your website and books?
It would focus entirely on Fundamentalists-Evangelical issues, positive and negative, contemporary and historical; it would be very conversational, easy, no ambush questions or issues.
Call me or write if you think you might be interested?
Thanks for your consideration and you might visit the webcast page to hear the style of the conversations with people of all theological
bents...
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/Stephen-Hand
Dear Dave Armstrong,
I just received your new book. Thank you so much for a great amount of valuable information that we can share with other.
I compiled a "Parish Evangelization Education" text and am looking for someone to help me get it published.
I sent it to Sophia Institute but the leading publisher said "make it happen in the parishes first" What should I do? We are now waiting for a new Bishop here is Austin Texas .
Thank you
Stan Dominski
dominskis@gmail.com
Dave.
I thought you would get a kick of this thread:
here
Its from the Steve Hays/Jason Engwer playground. Check out the comments.
H S&S,
It was entertaining (though at bottom, depressing) reading. You did an excellent job. Kudos.
I went through the same runaround with Engwer on SS and the Fathers years ago. It was a big public debate at CARM (probably the largest Protestant discussion forum). He split right in the middle of it, and I was on his ground: anti-Catholic territory.
At least he is cordial. I'll give him that much. Hays is a bigoted slanderer, as we saw yet again. He goes to personal attack right away in most "debates" he is in.
I commend you for your patience. I have lost all of mine with anti-Catholics, and ignore them now, except for the historically important Protestant founders.
Hi,
I am The editor/writer with medicine-worldwide.net. I really liked your site and i am interested in building a relationship with your site. We want to spread public awareness. I hope you can help me out. Your site is a very useful resource.
Please email me back with your URL in subject line to take a step ahead and also to avoid spam.
Thank you,
Maria Jones
maria.medicineworld@gmail.com
www.medicine-worldwide.net
Dear Mr. Armstrong,
I stumbled upon your blog, and was intrigued. I am also a convert from Protestantism. But, it seems from looking at your blog, that our experiences are very, very, different. After conversion, to the Catholic Faith,my husband and i came to see that the Catholic Church, at least the Church that is most visible for all to see, simply, is not. After taking the steps of being baptized, and going through a thing, that was supposed to be catechism(really a very loose therapy session), we realized,that even though, some things, were Catholic, or just looked Catholic, many things(the most important things), simply were not. The past several years have been like traveling down a funnel, where the Church, upon the Earth, has gotten smaller and smaller, simply because, so many have fallen, so many have believed lies, instead of thousands of years of infallible, solemn teachings that have been preserved for all of good will to see.
You seem like a man, who looks at things, and reasons them out, and who seeks the truth. So, why aren't you not noticing that most people who say that they are Catholic, are not. Why haven't you noticed, that even men who call themselves, "Priest", aren't even Catholic? Why do you still recognize the last few men who called themselves, "Pope", as such? Since, only Catholics can be such a thing...
The visible impostors that call themselves Catholic, and claim at the same time, that there is salvation outside of the Catholic Church, whilst paying reverent, respect to false religions, cannot be Catholic, as they are heretical in their false beliefs. This kind of heresy, as i'm sure you know, automatically excommunicates from the Catholic Church. And, as i'm sure you can guess, if they are excommunicated from the Catholic Church, they can have no hope for salvation, unless they abjure their heresy, and reconcile themselves to God, and all of His saving truth, through the One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church.
Please, do take the time to write, as i'm very eager to hear what you might have to say about this...
I will pray for you tonight, hoping that you will have eyes to see and ears to hear...
Praying for you, Paula
www.theepistemologicworks.com
p.s. sorry about the typos, i meant, why are you not noticing? It's getting late ;)
Hi Paula,
I've written quite a bit about nominal Catholics, and also about "traditionalist" Catholics like yourself. See my web page on the latter:
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/11/traditionalists-catholic-quasi.html
If you are a sedevacantist, there are a few papers about that on that page. I don't waste my time arguing about it, since I regard it as an utterly absurd position.
tell me about rose creek village brother...are they christians..
phillipgrieves@gmail.com
From what I can tell, reading their website, they are Christians, though they're not very specific about their doctrinal beliefs.
Generally, I am cautiously skeptical about any group that talks about "we just follow Jesus" and is very vague about their doctrine. That leaves a door wide open for possible heretical beliefs.
Communes of this sort are notorious for leadership abuse and eccentric belief-systems, even if they begin with perfectly good intentions..
More info:
http://rosecreekvillage.com/faq/
This is Hannah Bevills, Editor for Christian.com which is a social network made specifically for Christians, by Christians, to directly fulfill Christian's needs. We embarked on this endeavor to offer the ENTIRE christian community an outlet to join together as one (no matter denomination) and better spread the good word of Christianity. Christian.com has many great features aside from the obvious like christian TV, prayer request or even find a church/receive advice. We have emailed you because we have interest in collaborating with you and your blog to help us spread the good word. I look forward to an email regarding the matter, Thanks!
God Bless
|Hannah Bevills|Christian.com|
hannah.bevills@gmail.com
Dave,
I posted this elsewhere, I think, but I lost the post.
I just started reading "A Biblical Defense of Catholicism," I just finished the first chapter and have a couple of statements/questions for you.
You mention in there that the reference to scripture would have only alluded to the old testament. However, among the early church, it was held that the writings of Paul were of equal importance to the Old Testament. We see this in 2 Peter 3:16 where Peter equates scripture to Paul's writings. So, in reality, it would have been the Gospels/Hebrews/Acts/1,2,3 John/Revelation/etc. that were in question. Not the Pauline, am I wrong to say this?
Secondly, you said that the 2 Timothy 3:16 passage does not tell us that scripture alone is sufficient. But, I believe it does. It says that ALL scripture is profitable for EVERY good work. So, if it can supply us for every good work, isn't scripture sufficient enough?
Thanks.
I answered where you posted it elsewhere. See:
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2009/06/catalogue-index-catholic-apologetics.html?showComment=1316051351415#c5898521452544357425
The logical place to post this question would have been on the book page:
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/07/books-by-dave-armstrong-biblical.html
Or under the Bible and Tradition web page:
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/11/bible-church-tradition-canon-index.html
Of Mike and Men said...
Secondly, you said that the 2 Timothy 3:16 passage does not tell us that scripture alone is sufficient. But, I believe it does. It says that ALL scripture is profitable for EVERY good work. So, if it can supply us for every good work, isn't scripture sufficient enough?
Hi Mike .
Look,the first question which you asked to Dave , should prove to you that scripture alone is not enough . If scripture alone is enough , then how come Peter is warning that in Paul`s writings there are many things difficult and hard to understand?And who decides what and how the words of Paul are correctly understood?And also in your first question , could you please show us a complete list of Paul`s writings which Peter mentioned?Peter only said in all of his writings,but it was the Church which told us which are the writings of Paul , the same as it is the Church which teaches us the true meanings of the scriptures and not any private individual and private interpretations , in fact in the same epistle from which you quoted 2 Pet. 1:20 , Peter is specificaly saying that (Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.)so as you can see scriptures should not be privatly interpreted , that`s the duty of the Church to whom our Lord gave the authority to tell us,teach us and protect and interpret the word of God .Because without authority you will only have confusion and our God is not the author of confusion and sola scriptura causes confusion so sola scriptura is not from God . I mean come on just look around you and see the divisions and confusion and hatred which sola scriptura has caused , not to mention relativism and many other things .
GBU and i encourage you to keep reading ,praying and asking
I would suggest that 2 Timothy 3:16-17 does not say scripture is profitable for every good work, but rather that teaching, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness (in short, one's upbringing and education) equip a man for every good work. Scripture is "profitable" to this education. I don't see any statement about scripture being sufficient, only that it is useful for educative purposes.
Moreover, Paul is writing to Timothy as a pastor, and so he is speaking of the usefulnss of scripture in a pastor's education. Although scripture study is profitable to people in other ways of life as well, that is not the point Paul is making here.
Hey Dave,
Could you help me understand what paragraph 460 of the catechism means? Specifically the quotes from St. Athanasius and St. Thomas Aquinas?
How can I explain to a protestant that this paragraph does not mean we actually become God?
Thank you and God Bless!
Gage
Hi Gagefit .
I humbly believe that the paragraph explains itself very clearly .
The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81
And about the facts that we become gods , this word is not at all alien to scriptures , for example in John 10:34 this is what our Lord Jesus himself who is the truth and never lies said :Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, [1] I said, ye are gods?and again in John 10:35 He continues :If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken), and you do of course know that these words are taken from Psalm 82:6 , I said, Ye are gods, And all of you sons of the Most High.
So as you can see , we dont become God in the sense your protestant friend wants to understand it , but in the sens explained in the same paragraph,that we become partakers because we enter into communion with God .Christ who is truly God and truly one , when we are baptised , we become members of His body which is the Church , Christ and His Church are one .
GBU
One more thing . Do you remember Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden?they wanted to become God , they wanted to decide what is right and what is wrong instead of trusting God and obeying Him , and that`s why they fell . But now , it is thrue grace , thrue this undeserved unmerited supernatural gift of God , that we enter into communion with God and become adopted sons of God and partakers of the divine natures .
So just as our Lord Jesus Christ is God and the only begotten Son of God , we the Christians are also sons of God but again adopted , and because when we are one with Jesus Christ , in this sense also the word of the Cathechism of saint Athanasius (God)must be understood . In fact the orthodox still use the word (divinised ) because of this divine sonship that we received thrue the only begoteen son of God , our Lord Jesus Christ .
GBU
Gagefit , please check also John chapter 17 and especialy the verses 11 and 21 .
Here is a Catholic Answers discussion on divinization:
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=31983
And a good article:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CE8QFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.philvaz.com%2Fapologetics%2Fa124.htm&ei=ibcNT_GgJIPZgAe6xvykBw&usg=AFQjCNHHePM7ZXdaxl1HPk2oCXzmpvIngg
Thank you for the responses. From what I have read, I am understanding that to be "partakers of the divine nature" is a statement that articulates our union with Christ, our divine sonship, our conformity to the image and likeness of Christ, and the infusion of the Holy Spirit within us. I understand that this happens through the sacraments, most especially in the Eucharist. Is this understanding correct?
Would it be correct to say that the statements made by Aquinas and Athanasius are overstatements of how closely we are united with Christ. Because although we are united to the Divine nature and conformed to Christ's image and likneness, we don't actually become part of or transform into God.
Thank you for the feedback! God Bless!
Yes to the first question.
It is not a literal equation with God; it is a pungent, striking way to express profound union with God, made possible by the Eucharist, the Indwelling, regeneration, etc.
Dear Mr. Armstrong,
I appreciate your website and have learned a lot from it. I will however like to admonish you to keep an open mind, and stray from comments like
"I commend you for your patience. I have lost all of mine with anti-Catholics, and ignore them now, except for the historically important Protestant founders." This to me is highly defensive and makes your arguments harder to believe. Also the mud-slinging done between Mr. White and yourself seems quite un-christian on both parts. I feel like such intellects could be put to better use than merely chicken fighting over issues such as the communion of Saints and Purgatory.
Thanks for your site
reply to me here josiah.goodrum@gmail.com
Hi Dave: Something that keeps coming up in conversations with my Protestant brothers in regard to the Eucharist:
THe objection goes:
"Jesus said to do this in REMEMBRANCE of ME, NOT 'adore me' in the Eucharist!" (meaning, it was intended merely as a symbolic reminder and nothing else).
My Protestant friend is rather obsessed with the literalness of the word "remembrance", while denying the literalness of Jesus's words: "this is my body; this is my blood"
Could you elaborate more on the understanding of "Remembrance" here?
Also: Perhaps you could point me to some strong resources on "eucharistic adoration". What is the Biblical, historical basis for this in the church?
And a follow-up on my previous question (and somewhat related to GageFit's comment):
Aren't the Catholics placing a higher value in the graces of the Eucharist OVER the Power of the Holy Spirit in a person's life?
My protestant friend argues "It's the HOLY SPIRT that's the source and summit of the Christian life --- not the Eucharist!"
Hi Dan,
I have a paper on the biblical meaning of "remember":
Passover in Judaism: "Past Events Become Present Today" (Analogy to the Sacrifice of the Mass) / "Remember" in Scripture
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2009/07/passover-in-judaism-past-events-become.html
Adoration follows from the fact of Christ being truly present in the consecrated host. Therefore, it goes back top the biblical basis for believing in the real, substantial presence, and I provide those in many papers on my Eucharist page.
As for the Eucharist (Jesus) vs. the Holy Spirit: that's simply a Protestant false dichotomy. In any event, Jesus made it clear that if we didn't partake of the Eucharist, we have no life in us (John 6). Every Christian is already indwelt by the Holy Spirit. That's a given.
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