Steve Wood's Family Apostolate Needs Emergency Help Due to the Hurricane

I received this forward from a friend. Please help if you can. Steve does wonderful, much-needed work and is a strong voice for moral sanity. I have met him and was on his radio show once. If you can't help him financially, I urge you to pray that others will.
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Dear Friend,

The eye of Hurricane Charley passed directly over the Family Life Center, my home, and the homes of our staff members. The damage is severe. The needs are great. The crisis is unparalleled.

The national weather service gave us no warning whatsoever. Our local weatherman gave us only a few minutes of warning – not enough time to do anything except to take cover as best we could.

Because of the devastating hurricane damage, I’m dealing with multiple crises every day from morning until night. It’ll be weeks – perhaps months – before things get back to normal. Please sit down right now and give this EMERGENCY APPEAL your prayerful attention.

Our greatest emergency needs

I’ll tell you the whole shocking story in a moment. But first let me tell you what we most desperately need:

1. Prayers. Please pray for the fastest possible recovery from Hurricane Charley.

2. Please send an emergency check or money order to our street address (Family Life Center, Dept. 0804 HCE, 22226 Westchester Blvd., Port Charlotte, FL 33952). Your gift will help me repair the devastating damage and get back on my feet. Unfortunately our ability to accept online donations is temporarily crippled because of hurricane damage. But our financial needs are enormous. We expect to be able to receive emergency donations within 48 hours, I hope, but for now we can only accept donations by mail or by FedEx.

Now let me tell you off the top of my head what happened. I tremble just to think about the unbelievable power of a Category Four hurricane.

For a few days the National Hurricane Center had said Tampa was ground zero for Hurricane Charley. They said it would track up the Gulf of Mexico, which means we might have had Category One winds here. In southwest Florida Category One winds aren’t a big deal.

The hurricane hit Naples at about 75 miles per hour. When it got up to Ft. Myers it hit Category Two with that warm water in the Gulf of Mexico. The National Weather Service, even when the hurricane was at Ft. Myers, said it was still on course to hammer Tampa.

If it weren’t for our local weather stations we would have been hit without any warning whatsoever. That’s because the National Weather Service continued tracking it to Tampa. But the local weatherman said, “I’m not speaking for the National Weather Service, but I’ve distinctly seen a move here in the last 40 minutes to the right, which means the storm is now heading for Punta Gorda/Port Charlotte.” And I’m thinking, I know where that is.

Before the hurricane turned on us and got ugly, the kids were excited. My two boys were on their skateboards, trying to catch the wind with large garbage bags. The girls were filming the weather with a video camera. Everything seemed fun.

But in just 70 minutes the storm turned away from Tampa toward Punta Gorda/Port Charlotte and escalated from Category Two to Category Four. This is over a period of 70 minutes. It quickly turned into a calamity.

When I heard the eye was at Fisherman’s Village in Punta Gorda, which is just across the river from Port Charlotte where my house and office are located, I knew we were in grave danger.

When the winds came to our house there was nowhere to go at that point. By the time we knew what was happening, the hurricane had switched course and doubled in strength. The winds whipped our house at about 140 miles per hour. I’m kind of shaking just telling you about this.

Haunting sound: hurricane rips tiles right off my roof

My daughter Anne said, “Dad – in our family room the sliding glass door is buckling.” I took one look at it because when I was in high school I had one of those blow out about five feet from me. This one blew. All I did was scream “GO!!!,” and the kids dove and I dove and it blew. I don’t know if you can imagine broken glass and 140 mile per hour winds coming in your family room. The glass traveled to two rooms. And then plants and everything were coming in our family room at 140 miles per hour.

I put the kids in the hallway where there are no windows and put mattresses over their heads. We knew we were in serious trouble. As the wind howled and moaned, the rosaries came out. I surveyed what was happening because if our roof went I was concerned that things would collapse on us. When the wind first hit us it tore 90% of the tiles right off of the roof. I could hear them ripping off. It was just a haunting sound with the big sections of tile being torn off. I kept looking to see if there was plywood because if there was no plywood it meant our house was going to go.

And then it went from 140 miles per hour to deathly still. Relatively sunny.

Eye of storm passes over us: I was scared to death!

The eye passed right over us. I knew what it was, and I was scared to death. I was really scared to death. I could barely talk but I knew I had to give reports to the family so I kind of sucked it up and did it in a coach’s fashion. “You know, we’re halfway through. We made it halfway.” But the worst was still to come.

About four to five minutes later the wind clocked 180 miles per hour, slamming the other side of our house. The window blew out in the bedroom of the hallway where we were and I was afraid the door was going to go. But it held. And probably within an hour it was over.

Our patio cage collapsed. My chain link fence blew down. I had an old canoe next to my house filled with hundreds of pounds of water. And that canoe is nowhere to be seen. It’s gone. It’s just flat out gone. It probably flew to the next county.

Roof collapses, causing my kids to freak out

The garden shed blew away completely. We don’t even know where it is. Windows blown out. Glass everywhere. Plants in our house. And then, of course, you have wave upon wave of torrential rain. That’s the really sickening part because I have no shingles on my roof, and rain is pouring through all the ceilings throughout our house. Every bedroom leaked, some considerably.

By bedtime the ceiling in one of my kid’s bedrooms collapsed. That kind of freaked them out. They didn’t know what else was going to come down. We just put buckets everywhere, but the bottom line is we knew our house was sustaining tens of thousands of dollars in damage because water was just pouring in. No ridge cap, no shingles. Ninety percent of the shingles on one side of the house were gone. Thirty percent on the other side. So our house was completely vulnerable to the weather.

The wind was just blowing the curtains everywhere. It buckled the doors.

I waited for the storm to pass and began to assess the damage. But we couldn’t do anything with the water because it kept coming down and we had no roof. That’s pretty bad. We went over to my daughter Stephanie’s condo, and she had a hole in her roof and a window blown out. Her bedroom’s destroyed. There was nothing we could do and we left there.

Heartbreaking damage to the Family Life Center

Then my daughters Sarah and Stephanie and I got to the Family Life Center about 10:00 p.m. to check out the damage. I had to drive over and under live power lines to get there. Around trees. It was doomsday. A tree had landed on Stephanie’s car. There were trees in our driveway. Trees everywhere. A dumpster blown over.

We went inside our radio studio with a flashlight. The damage was heartbreaking.

The Family Life Center had that special soundproofing foam on the ceiling for our radio studio. It was all hanging down. All of our equipment was soaking wet. The control boards and everything. I wanted to see the damage to the roof, but I couldn’t find it. I kept shining my light up at the ceiling, and it wouldn’t reflect off. I was trying to find what was wrong, and I finally realized there was no ceiling or roof. I was looking at the sky!

Part of my library of 30 years was in the Family Life Center. Stephanie and I got my library out of there, and Sarah got our master tapes and all of our master radio shows. This is at 11 or 12 at night with a candle. We had one of the candles from mass at our little chapel.

The worse part was at night. If you could call it a night’s sleep. Over 50% of my roof is leaking. And about 1:30 in the morning we hear part of the ceiling crashing in on my patio. Then about every hour or two another part of the ceiling crashes inside the house. That was pretty hard to take. Our walls are still filled with water. It’s an unmitigated catastrophe.

It’s just like somebody threw a couple of sticks of dynamite in there and it exploded upward and fell down.

Every day is a crisis: Mosquitoes have free access to my home

The whole roof needs to be replaced. It needs to be shingled. That’s just to fix the roof. The inside of the house – well, I’ll talk about that later.

We have a five-bedroom house for our family. All our carpeting is gone. I’ve yanked all the carpeting out of the house. Had to yank a whole bunch of ceilings and insulation out. Bottom line: There are parts of our house where you can see the outside. I still don’t know what we’re going to do. Obviously, if we can see sky, the bugs outside can see us and can come inside our home. It’s August and there’s water everywhere. We can’t keep the bees, mosquitoes, and other bugs out of the house.

We desperately need to fix our office and our home, but all the local work crews are tied up and overwhelmed with demands.

That was the first couple of days. I don’t even know what we’re going to do now. We didn’t have water, electricity. We didn’t have anything. We had to drive over power lines hanging down. My phone pole, I’m looking at right now, is sheared off about five feet off the ground. It’s just gone. The wires are laying back in a bunch of bushes. Power is very, very, very slowly being restored. We got water on the third day, I guess. I never thought I would be so grateful for a cold shower. You usually complain. Last night it was kind of funny. I was tired. I was dead tired. So I got in the shower and I kept waiting for the water to get warm and it wouldn’t get warm. So we have water, which is a blessing. We can’t drink it yet, but it’s O.K. for washing.

Our bookkeeper from the Family Life Center showed up the day after the hurricane. Bless her heart, because this takes navigating. There are no traffic lights in our city. Zero.

Employees of Family Life Center are in desperate need

In any case, our bookkeeper came, and I said, “We don’t have a computer or anything.” She said, “Yes, but the employees are going to need money.”

I had to go up to Venice and get a cell phone. It’s my only contact. I went to Wal-Mart and got necessities and tools.

You know, the credit card company called. I don’t think they’ve called me since I got the card. And they told me I had hit my spending limit. I told them I’m in Charlotte County dealing with the crisis following Hurricane Charley. The credit card representative said he understood. And that was it. My spending level was unusually high.

Children grab a hammer, head up to the roof

I’m running from one crisis to another trying to figure things out. And we may need to relocate our family. I don’t even know if we’re going to be able to stay in our home. I have a friend who may come down this weekend and kind of assess what the deal is here. It could take a few months to get this settled. And then what do you do?

I’ll tell you, though, one thing that has been great. Usually the kids sit around saying things like, “let’s go to the mall” or “let’s go to the movies.” To see them grab a hammer and head up to the roof is character building stuff. It’s inspiring.

A lot of people are asking what our needs are. Obviously our needs are financial because we’re going to have to hire people to do repair work on our office and home. Unfortunately the insurance company deductibles are high. The insurance companies learned their lesson after Hurricane Andrew and tightened their policies to protect their assets from natural disasters.

Unparalleled crisis

In this unparalleled crisis, could I appeal to you to give a bigger gift than you’ve ever given before? I’m praying that you’ll stretch yourself and make a gift much larger than you’ve ever given – if possible. Please give what the Lord leads you to give. I guarantee I’ll put every dollar you donate to the best possible use.

In dealing with this extraordinary emergency, the bills are piling up like you wouldn’t believe. I appeal for your help before I drown in a sea of red ink.

The Family Life Center will be back stronger than ever, but it’ll take a while. I’m determined to rebuild. I’m depending on your generous response to this crisis appeal to get back on our feet. I have no one to turn to but people like you. Please take out your checkbook right now and make out the most generous check you can. Then mail it today.

May God bless you and your loved ones, in His own best way.

Yours in Christ,

Steve Wood

P.S. Remember, your gift is 100 percent tax deductible. Make out your check or money order to the Family Life Center and rush it to our street address: Family Life Center, Dept. 0804HCE, 22226 Westchester Blvd., Port Charlotte, FL 33952. Please join me in praying for the success of this crisis appeal. Please rush your emergency gift into the mail right away.

P.P.S. Please forward this e-mail to concerned friends and loved ones and pray that the Lord will inspire them to help out in this emergency. And please make out your check and send it today.

Tolle, lege!

Listen to me on "Catholic Answers Live," Discussing Bible and Tradition

Catholic Answers has an archives of their old shows. My hourlong appearance on October 10, 2003 was entitled, "Why We Need More Than the Bible." You can view the schedule for that month, and listen to or download my show. Pretty cool! You used to have to order a cassette and wait 4-6 weeks. Now you can click a button, sit back in your easy chair, and listen to a character like me! An article of roughly the same material has recently been published in This Rock.

Tolle, lege!

Theory as to President Bush's Renunciation of Anti-Kerry Ads

Bush denounced yesterday the ads such as those by the swift boat Vietnam veterans, who question John Kerry's war heroism and devotion. I think he is a very sharp political strategist (much more than the Democrats believe him to be). This is what I believe he may have had in mind:

1. People always say they frown upon negative campaigning, though everyone uses the tactic because it is spectacularly successful.

2. This allows Bush to be on record as opposing such ads, so he gains in the eyes of such folks.

3. The Democrats and liberals have been trying to dismiss these ads by claiming that they were put out in direct conjunction with Bush campaign operatives, etc. Thus, by renouncing the ads, Bush cuts this objection right out from under them, and takes away one of the primary responses to the ads that they have made.

4. But the swift boat veterans intend to keep pursuing their goals no matter what, because for them it is a highly personal matter of principle. I heard one of their leaders state this yesterday on the radio.

5. Therefore, the benefits which will result from the ads will still go to Bush, even though he renounced the ads, because they will have their effect whether or not he agrees with them. He will receive the benefit while at the same time being on record as opposing them. He gets the "best of both worlds."

6. Republicans and independent and swing voters can then think that "these men believe in their opinions so strongly that they are perpetuating their ad and book campaign even in the face of opposition from the President who ostensibly would benefit from the information. Therefore, it's not just a campaign tactic. These are truly men of principle who sincerely believe what they are saying, whatever the consequences."

7. Also, the charge of financial gain / big Texas oil money, etc., is undercut because the person I heard on the radio said that he was giving all his royalties to a group which aids military families.

So what do the Democrats and Kerry cronies say now? Without the ubiquitous charge of personal gain and direct Bush-campaign connections, and strictly political motivations, might they (GASP!!!) have to actually interact with the damning information in these ads and in the book? Heaven forbid that they ever do that . . . it might get too substantive and intelligent and consistently ethical for them to handle . . .

Kerry's own frantic, anxiety-laden, inconsistent overreactions are quite sufficient to possibly cost him the election in and of themselves . . . this is especially the case since he made his war heroism the centerpiece of his claim to be qualified for the Presidency. He brought this upon himself. In the era of 9-11 and terrorism, people won't stand for pretense and forced, fake Bill Clinton-like, Machiavellian "striving to be somebody" (when they have few or no core principles to fall back on), where the security of the country and lives of soldiers are at stake. Some things are more important than personal and political power, after all.

Now, I think Bush is clever enough to consciously know all of this, and this is my theory behind his actions. He knows he will benefit in the ways described above, and so it is a win-win situation. It doesn't follow that he is being insincere; this is simply the game of politics. It has become so manifestly absurd that it is understood by everyone as a sort of silly game that everyone is playing. It's not serious discourse, in other words, so the usual "rules" of "saying what you mean" and "meaning what you say" do not apply, and everyone knows it. At least this is true with regard to campaigning. Hopefully, in truly serious matters such as terrorism, it is not the case.

If the Democrats insist on playing hardball (and they always do in the post-Reagan, post-Robert Bork, post-Clarence Thomas era), Bush is fully justified in at least playing a bit of clever softball.

Tolle, lege!

Question and Answer Forum #4

Remember, this is for relatively short answers, not treatises! But I'll do my best.

Tolle, lege!

Tolkien the Catholic was instrumental in the conversion of Lewis to "mere" Christianity.
Tolle, lege!

Myth-as-Truth, J.R.R. Tolkien, and the Conversion of C.S. Lewis

I'm currently reading the fascinating volume, C.S. Lewis and the Catholic Church, by Joseph Pearce (with whom I had the pleasure of chatting over dinner one time). I was familiar with the general outlines of Lewis's conversion to Christianity (he being my favorite writer), but the way Pearce described it was very interesting and thought-provoking, in terms of my own (and Lewis's) interest in the relationship of Romanticism and Mythology to Christianity. I would like to cite some of it:
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This meeting, which was to have such a revolutionary impact on Lewis's life, took place on 19 September 1931 after Lewis had invited Tolkien and Dyson to dine at his rooms in Magdalen College. After dinner the three men went for a walk beside the river and discussed the nature and purpose of myth. Lewis explained that he felt the power of myths, but that they were ultimately untrue. As he expressed it to Tolkien, myths were 'lies, even though lies breathed through silver.'

'No,' Tolkien replied emphatically. 'They are not.'

Tolkien resumes, arguing that myths, far from being lies, were the best way of conveying truths which would otherwise be inexpressible. 'We have come from God [continued Tolkieb], and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, will also reflect a splintered fragment of true light, the eternal truth that is with God.' Since we are made in the image of God, and since God is the Creator, part of the imageness of God in us is the gift of creativity. The creation -- or, more correctly, the sub-creation -- of stories or myths is merely a reflection of the image of the Creator in us. As such, although 'myths may be misguided, . . . they steer however shakily towards the true harbour,' whereas materialistic 'progress' leads only to the abyss and to the power of evil.

. . . Listening almost spellbound as Tollien expounded his philosophy of myth, Lewis felt the foundation of his own theistic philosophy crumble into dust before the force of his friend's arguments.

. . . Tolkien developed his argument to explain that the story of Christ was the True Myth, a myth that works in the same way as the others, but a myth that really happened -- a myth that existed in the realm of fact as well as in the realm of truth. In the same way that men unraveled the truth through the weaving of story, God revealed the Truth through the weaving of history.

. . . Tolkien . . . had shown that pagan myths were, in fact, God expressing Himself through the minds of poets, using the images of their 'mythopoeia' to reveal fragments of His eternal truth. Yet, most astonishing of all, Tolkien maintained that Christianity was exactly the same except for the enormous difference that the poet who invented it was God Himself, and the images He used were real men and actual history.

. . . The full extent of Tolkien's influence can be gauged from Lewis's letter to [Arthur] Greeves on 18 October:

. . . the Pagan stories are God expressing Himself through the minds of poets, using such images as He found there, while Christianity is God expressing Himself through what we call 'real things'. Therefore, it is true, not in the sense of being a 'description' of God (that no finite mind can take in) but in the sense of being the way in which God chooses to (or can) appear to our faculties. The 'doctrines' we get out of the true myth are of course less true: they are translations into our concepts and ideas of that which God has already expressed in a language more adequate, namely the actual incarnation, crucifixion, and resurrection.

(pp. 36-40; words of Lewis in the final section from Walter Hooper, ed., They Stand Together: The Letters of C.S. Lewis to Arthur Greeves (1914-1963), New York: Macmillan, 1979, 427-428)

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On a somewhat humorous note (at least I found it quite funny), Pearce recounted a review of Lewis's first Christian writing, The Pilgrim's Regress (1933), by the liberal Anglican priest W. Norman Pittenger (with whom Lewis later engaged in controversy on at least one occasion, as I recall), who opined, based on his reading of the book, that Lewis the pilgrim:

The ironies here are numerous, but rather than hearing my commentary on them, I will let the reader savor them.

Following up on this line of thought (Romanticism), I would like to cite some further related reflections of C.S. Lewis, cited in my paper, The Relationship of Romanticism to Christianity and Catholicism in Particular:

In poetry the words are the body and the 'theme' or 'content' is the soul. But in myth the imagined events are the body and something inexpressible is the soul: the words, or mime, or film, or pictorial series are not even clothes -- they are not much more than a telephone. Of this I had evidence some years ago when I first heard the story of Kafka's Castle related in conversation and afterwards read the book for myself. The reading added nothing. I had already received the myth, which was all that mattered.

. . . It goes beyond the expression of things we have already felt. It arouses in us sensations we have never had before, never anticipated having, as though we had broken out of our normal mode of consciousness and 'possessed joys not promised to our birth'. It gets under our skin, hits us at a level deeper than our thoughts or even our passions, troubles oldest certainties till all questions are re-opened, and in general shocks us more fully awake than we are for most of our lives. It was in this mythopoeic art that [George] Macdonald excelled . . .

. . . The quality which had enchanted me in his imaginative works turned out to be the quality of the real universe, the divine, magical, terrifying and ecstatic reality in which we all live. I should have been shocked in my 'teens if anyone had told me that what I learned to love in Phantastes was goodness. But now that I know, I see there was no deception. The deception is all the other way round -- in that prosaic moralism which confines goodness to the region of Law and Duty, which never lets us feel in our face the sweet air blowing from 'the land of righteousness', never reveals that elusive Form which if once seen must inevitably be desired with all but sensuous desire -- the thing (in Sappho's phrase) 'more gold than gold'.

(From George Macdonald: An Anthology, edited by C.S. Lewis, New York: Macmillan, 1947, Preface, 14, 16-22)

. . . Just as, on the factual side, a long preparation culminates in God's becoming incarnate as Man, so, on the documentary side, the truth first appears in mythical form and then by a long process of condensing or focusing finally becomes incarnate as History. This involves the belief that Myth in general is not merely misunderstood history (as Euhemerus thought) nor diabolical illusion (as some of the Fathers thought) nor priestly lying (as the philosophers of the Enlightenment thought) but, at its best, a real though unfocused gleam of divine truth falling on human imagination. The Hebrews, like other people, had mythology: but as they were the chosen people so their mythology was the chosen mythology -- the mythology chosen by God to be the vehicle of the earliest sacred truths, the first step in that process which ends in the New Testament where truth has become completely historical . . . Just as God is none the less God by being Man, so the Myth remains Myth even when it becomes Fact. The story of Christ demands from us, and repays, not only a religious and historical but also an imaginative response. It is directed to the child, the poet, and the savage in us as well as to the conscience and to the intellect. One of its functions is to break down dividing walls.

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. . . Even assuming (which I most constantly deny) that the doctrines of historic Christianity are merely mythical, it is the myth which is the vital and nourishing element in the whole concern . . . in religion we find something that does not move away. It is what Corineus calls the myth, that abides: it is what he calls the mosern and living thought that moves away. Not only the thought of theologians, but the thought of anti-theologians . . . Where is the epicureanism of Lucretius, the pagan revival of Julian the Apostate? Where are the Gnostics, where is the monism of Averroes, the deism of Voltaire, the dogmatic materialism of the great Victorians? Thay have moved with the times. But the thing they were all attacking remains: Corineus finds it still there to attack. The myth (to speak his language) has outlived the thoughts of all its defenders and of all its adversaries. It is the myth that gives life. Those elements even in modernist Christianity which Corineus regards as vestigial, are the substance: what he takes for the 'real modern belief' is the shadow . . . .

In the enjoyment of a great myth we come nearest to experiencing as a concrete what can otherwise be understood only as an abstraction . . . The moment we state this principle, we are admittedly back in the world of abstraction. It is only while receiving the myth as a story that you experience the principle correctly.

When we translate we get abstraction -- or rather, dozens of abstractions. What flows into you from the myth is not truth but reality (truth is always about something, but reality is that about which truth is), and, therefore, every myth becomes the father of innumerable truths on the abstract level. Myth is the mountain whence all the different streams arise which become truths down here in the valley; in hac valle abstractionis ['In this valley of separation']. Or, if you prefer, myth is the isthmus which connects the peninsular world of thought with that vast continent we really belong to. It is not, like truth, abstract; nor is it, like direct experience, bound to the particular.

Now as myth transcends thought, Incarnation transcends myth. The heart of Christianity is a myth which is also a fact. The old myth of the Dying God, without ceasing to be myth, comes down from the heaven of legend and imagination to the earth of history. It happens -- at a particular date, in a particular place, followed by definable historical consequences. We pass from a Balder or an Osiris, dying nobody knows when or where, to a historical Person crucified (it is all in order) under Pontius Pilate. By becoming fact it does not cease to be myth: that is the miracle. I suspect that men have sometimes derived more spiritual sustenance from myths they did not believe than from the religion they professed. To be truly Christian we must both assent to the historical fact and also receive the myth (fact though it has become) with the same imaginative embrace which we accord to all myths. The one is hardly more necessary than the other. A man who disbelieved the Christian story as fact but continually fed on it as myth would, perhaps, be more spiritually alive than one who assented and did not think much about it . . .

Those who do not know that this great myth became Fact when the Virgin conceived are, indeed, to be pitied . . . We must not be ashamed of the mythical radiance resting on our theology . . . We must not, in false spirituality, withhold our imaginative welcome. If God chooses to be mythopoeic -- and is not the sky itself a myth -- shall we refuse to be mythopathic? For this is the marriage of heaven and earth: Perfect Myth and Perfect Fact: claiming not only our love and our obedience, but also our wonder and delight, addressed to the savage, the child, and the poet in each one of us no less than to the moralist, the scholar, and the philosopher.

(From Miracles, New York: Macmillan, 1947, rep. 1978, 133-134 [chap. 15, footnote 1] / From World Dominion, vol. XXII, Sep-Oct 1944, 267-270; reprinted in Walter Hooper, editor, God in the Dock, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1970, 63-67)

Tolle, lege!

Discussion on Orthodox Caesaropapism & Proper Historiography (vs. "Theophan" & Joel Kalvesmaki)

Meanwhile (as I was enjoying this August the glorious wilds and vistas of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia), and not giving the slightest thought to apologetics, one "Theophan" (Orthodox, I believe) took it upon himself to resurrect from the distant recesses of Internet Old Papers Out There Somewhere an obscure dialogue I had with Joel Kalvesmaki (also Orthodox). Theophan pulled up no less than nine posts from my old Apologetics / Ecumenism discussion list, from January 2000. I started this list and moderated it for a year (and I believe it is still in existence to this day). He announced this on the Theological Discussion Board, in the thread, "also somewhat interesting." Accompanying this generous citation of old work of mine left unpreserved on my website, Theophan peppered his comments in the thread with silly remarks such as the following:

"Phooey"

Anyone with a heartbeat can look at that board and see that Dave was doing a bit of "anti-Orthodox trolling." Then suddenly he hooked something bigger than he was expecting. If he is going to post catenae of proof-texts as supposed scholarship, don't cry when somebody asks him to back it up with some substance.

This is highly amusing, since it was and is my own discussion list we are talking about! It is difficult to "troll" one's own list, by definition, since -- as I understand it -- that Internet term means cruising around the Internet looking to raise a stink or a quarrel on some board or engage in a "hit piece" on someone or other, and then splitting (in other words, not being at all interested in serious conversation). Besides, Joel wrote to me initially. He was responding (at the request of someone else) to my website paper, "Catholicism and Orthodoxy: A Comparison." So the situation is the utter opposite of "trolling." How the discussion began is quite obvious in the opening of the first post that Theophan cites, where Joel (his words will be in blue throughout) wrote:

Thank you for your response to this first critique I offered. Overall, I feel that your response to this first post was rather weak, simply restating what you had originally written without dealing directly with my objections or offering any counter-evidence. You will see how this works out as you progress through this e-mail.

Later, he wrote:

[T]he reason I contacted you in the first place was because I felt that it would be good to make my critiques of these papers accountable to the author as well . . .

This is "trolling"? Someone responds to an existing paper of mine, sends me an e-mail, I counter-respond, it eventually gets posted to my discussion list as a public exchange (with both sides' full consent), but I am "trolling"? One can only throw up their hands in despair in encountering "reasoning" like this: an example of what Malcolm Muggeridge would have called (in his inimitable, delightful, tweaking fashion) "fathomless imbecility." But anyone with a "heartbeat" can figure out what can only be regarded as a manifest absurdity. I must be a dead man already then . . .

As for "anti-Orthodox," I don't know how Theophan defines that term, but if it is anything like how I define anti-Catholic, then it is an absurd charge, since I regard my Orthodox brethren as fellow Christians, and in fact, have an immense amount of respect for them (as I do, many Protestants and Protestant groups). I disagree with them on some issues, and dare to write about it. If that brands me as "anti-Orthodox," then to be consistent, Theophan ought to refer (assuming a desire on his part for fairness and consistency) also to the ongoing inter-Orthodox squabbles.

On that very same list (where Orthodox were always present, and encouraged to participate in the ecumenical endeavor), there were Orthodox from ROCOR who would not only not acknowledge Catholic sacraments, but even those of other Orthodox jurisdictions. Are they "anti-Orthodox" too? This becomes a ridiculous subjective and semantic discussion, so I will leave it at that. Even my dialogue Joel stated that he enjoyed the discussion and obtained some benefit from it (as we shall see below) so it is hardly accurate to describe my efforts as "anti-Orthodox." One might more accurately describe Theophan's attitude as "paranoid" (if we must throw such unnecessary descriptions around).

As for the insinuation that I got my head handed to me in a handbasket by Joel Kalvesmaki, well, as always, I appeal back to the discussion itself, and allow people to make up their own minds. The partisan on one side always thinks that their "champion" wins the debate, so this is not exactly a surprising development on Theophan's part. Joel scarcely even dealt with the citations and reasoning I set forth. Instead, he launched into his own thing (the frustrating "ships passing in the night" routine -- which is no dialogue) and diverted the discussion into a tedious one about legitimate and illegitimate use of sources. That is one of my pet peeves, and so I responded forcefully. Whether I succeeded or not is for the reader to judge. The hoped-for "dialogue" ended on an inconclusive, most disappointing note, with little accomplished (which is what happens when one person leaves prematurely, as Joel did). He probably had excellent reasons to leave the discussion (mostly time pressures, as he said -- I can certainly understand that), but in any event leave he did.

If "supposed scholarship" is what Theophan calls the opinions of sources like the Encyclopædia Britannica, The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, The New International Dictionary of the Christian Church, A History of Christianity, by Kenneth Scott Latourette, The Making of Europe, by Christopher Dawson, Christendom: A Short History of Christianity, by Roland H. Bainton, History of the Christian Church, Vol. II: Nicene and Post-Nicene Christianity: A.D. 311-600, by Philip Schaff, The Icon and the Axe: An Interpretive History of Russian Culture, by James H. Billington (786 pages, with 160 pages of elaborate footnotes), The Historical Road of Eastern Orthodoxy, by Alexander Schmemann [Orthodox], and The Orthodox Church, by Archbishop Kallistos Ware [Orthodox], as well as [Orthodox] Alexander Solzhenitsyn's Lenten Letter of 1972, then I confess that I am completely baffled as to how to respond (so I won't).

And then we have the stupid, familiar accusation (almost always from true anti-Catholics or those who don't understand how vigorous, passionate discussion works) about whining or "crying" when supposedly annihilated in an argument. This is fit only for laughter as well. I'm delighted that Theophan brought up this old debate. Joel at the time asked me not to post his words on my website in any edited form (and I was happy to oblige), but as they are in the public domain, on the Internet already, and as they seem to be some sort of "trophy piece" for Orthodox polemicists who want so badly to see my arguments concerning Orthodoxy defeated (hence Theophan's juvenile polemical rhetoric), it is not improper for me to reference them again on my blog and website. Joel himself said he had no objection to an unedited presentation. If the charge is that I was virtually crushed by the overwhelming weight of Joel's scholarly and historical arguments, I think it is only fair that my readers ought to see what actually happened in this debate. Vive free speech and the exchange of ideas! Let the reader judge . . . this is the beauty of open exchange of competing ideas.

Here are the discussions as Theophan lists them, "in basically chronological order" (hyper-linked):

First
Second
Third
Fourth
Fifth
Sixth
Seventh
Eighth
Ninth

Joel, in the first installment, contended that I was somehow engaging in illegitimate methodology in citing sources such as those above:

You had made a number of claims about history. Falsification or verification of such claims can be done through historical analysis. I was not "explain[ing] the papacy and the form of Catholic ecclesiology and theology by purely socio-political analysis," but challenging certain of your claims about Church history.

This would be his theme: I could not -- so he argued -- cite historians, whose task is precisely to study such things in depth and arrive at conclusions (i.e., they make the "historical analysis" that Joel demands), and present them to us ignorant folks out here, outside the hallowed halls of ivory tower academia. That was somehow improper, as if historians are not entitled to their opinions and conclusions, and as if mere laymen like myself commit some egregious, dishonest sin in merely citing them. One has to (in effect, and the result of his argumentation) do historiography, in order to make any claims about history at all, according to Joel (at that time a graduate student in Early Christian Studies at the Catholic University of America Washington, DC, and presumably now nearing or in possession of a doctorate in history).

But this is foolish, because it would mean that no one could appeal to those who specialize in such things, and everyone would be required to specialize in them, to even make any claim at all. Such a state of affairs is manifestly absurd, a most unreasonable demand, and practically impossible. It would render meaningless in a major way the very field which Joel has chosen for himself. I could just as easily retort that "why should I trust your opinion on anything, if you are not yet a professor of history? Why should I trust your opinion even when you are that, since you have implied that no one must cite scholars' opinions; that this is somehow improper?"

I staked out the broad course of my reply in the second exchange:

I have never claimed that my own brief treatment of caesaropapism was anything more than a broad generalization. I do think it is historically accurate, generally speaking, as I will demonstrate. You seem to want minute scholarly accuracy in an overview paper [even Joel stated that this portion made up 10% of the paper above that he was critiquing]. I don't think that is reasonable or necessary; nevertheless, since you have called for further documentation, I will gladly provide it from historians: it is quite sufficient, in my opinion, to strongly back up my claims.

. . . I think the thesis under discussion can easily be defended, and I will shortly do so with further solid sources. But let's make it clear that I am positing a general tendency, in broad, general terms, much as Bishop Ware himself did (in a much more limited way), and similar to what my sources claim. My approach is more or less an amateur "history of ideas/theology" outlook, which isn't pretending to be an exhaustive treatment of all periods of Eastern, Byzantine, and Orthodox history, with the exactitude and precision of a professional historian. If Ware and Solzhenitsyn can generalize about historical trends and tendencies, so can I (neither of them being historians, either, as far as I know - though they are obviously well-versed in history).

I would expect you, as a budding historian, to approach the topic the way you do, with rigor, comprehensiveness, and precision. That's great, but it's another thing altogether to expect this of a piece of writing which had a different nature and purpose from the outset. But I can and will defend the general outlines of my thesis. That is all I should be expected to do, as a non-professional student of Church history. You will see that I do have many many history books in my library (running closely behind theology and apologetics). All the books I cite (unless I cite the Catholic Encyclopedia of 1911 from online) were in my own collection.

I expressed one of the reasons motivating me to do this particular research:

We have plenty of historical faults, too: sins of commission, as I acknowledged in an earlier post. But that's the point: I acknowledged our sins; you want to deny those of Orthodoxy and its historical and geographical predecessors (well,at least this one). And I notice this often in Orthodox polemics: Rome is the bad guy, and Orthodoxy is assumed to be so flawless. Oh, there are faults here and there, vaguely alluded to, but the insinuation is that Catholicism has so many more skeletons in its closet, so much more error. This is an aside, I know, but I get tired of it. It's typified in such consciously and obsessively anti-Catholic rags as Franky Schaeffer's Christian
Activist.

Around this time, I produced my many citations from historians, dealing with caesaropapism. Joel's friends started pushing him to withdraw:

Not only that critic which is my worst, but several other moderate as well, have chided me for bothering to reply to this message. Although I agree with their fears of the pettiness of such a thread, I do feel the urge to explain why these fears have some ground.

He elaborated upon his argument against citing historians as secondary authoritative sources:

1. Rather than primary sources, you offer secondary sources. Rather than dealing with records and events of the time, you're working with the variegated assessment of modern writers.

2. Furthermore, you never inform us as to the basis upon which these authors derive their conclusions. Where are they getting their information, how do they support their assessments, what are their sources? (This kind of critical assessment is to be done with all quotes, pro or con.)

3. It is unclear what the quotes you offer are supposed to do for your argument. How do they work against any of my arguments? Why did you choose these extracts and not others?

To be fair to Joel, he did qualify his criticisms in an important manner:

Would that this not discourage you! Your citations present materials and views much worth discussing. Most of them seem to confirm what I have written all along. I am especially blessed by Schmemann's critique and assessment. But the task of integrating these quotes into a coherent argument . . . is your task as the catenist.

I was under the impression that the dialogue at this point was still a jovial, amiable one. Hence I wrote:

I think this exchange is very helpful and stimulating. I've learned a lot. If someone else doesn't like this, they can delete it unread. I enjoy your posts, and I hope you enjoy mine, and don't take anything personally. Some people never seem to comprehend that distinction, unfortunately: to critique one's ideas and beliefs is not necessarily to cast aspersions upon them (in other words, apologetics and ecumenism ought to exist side-by-side, in harmony). I know you understand this: I am writing to readers who might be inclined to make the charge that it is a futile and unsavory exercise of merely personal (or, for that matter, ecclesiological) "attacks," etc.

Joel stated:

Were I to bring a paper today to a Byzantine Studies Conference arguing for the
caesaropapism of the Eastern Church I would be laughed off stage.

I summed up my presentation thus far:

I have offered plenty of evidence for my part, which you have not commented on (perhaps you intend to). Would these people, e.g., laugh Schmemann (the severest critic I produced) off the stage? He has been quite frank as to the fact of it, as a lamentable eastern tendency, which is basically my claim (despite my forays into ultimate cause, which is far more tricky to demonstrate and prove).

Joel -- near the end -- claimed to be enjoying the discussion, with some qualifications (emphases added):

I have been very blessed and informed by our discussion, in which we have come to some measure of understanding. Yesterday, as I recieved the syllabi for two of my five courses, I realized that I would have to find a plateau for our fine conversation or else suffer attenuation in my time and attention . . . While I have the answers and the will to respond to most of your objections, I have less time, and increasingly less patience, given what I feel to be poor form in argumentation on your part . . . Thanks be to God for where we have built some kind of understanding!

He acknowledged that he had some answering to do:

I realize that the "ball is in my court" on several points . . . Of course I am available for feedback and criticism and even further discussion on this thread, but it will have to be a bit slower and more limited in scope. Is this agreeable to you?

I readily agreed (though expressing a preference for more speed). For whatever reason, the further dialogue never took place. That is the fact of the matter. In my opinion, the matter was left unresolved, and Joel never dealt with my material from the historians. Basically, his main approach was to complain about the methodology I used. Now, one may think he made all the superior arguments and "won" the debate (perhaps he did; who knows, in the cosmic scheme of things? I don't think so, but maybe he did . . .), but since he himself acknowledged that there were things he needed to reply to, and said he would like to in time, it stands to reason that there was no clear or decisive "winner" in this. It was no "slam dunk." It wasn't even a dunk; not even a basket, in my opinion.

Theophan's cynical, jaded judgment is not warranted by the facts. The discussion never came to any real resolution, but at least it was amiable to the end (and there is much to be said for that). I made a claim with my sources and it was not overcome, as far as I am concerned. Not even a satisfactory attempt was made. One can complain all day that secondary, not primary sources were used, but these are still scholars (three of them Orthodox) with legitimate opinions in their own field of study, and they cannot be overcome merely by complaining about lack of context and primary content, etc. (which is mostly what Joel did). Perhaps if he sees this, he will decide to return and offer a true reply to my arguments after more than four years. In the meantime, I believe that they stand, and are adequately supported. That is not to run down Joel; it is much more so a protest against the ridiculous fictional caricatures of "Theophan," in describing this discussion and the supposed "knockout punch" that I allegedly experienced.

Tolle, lege!

"To the Wild Country" (Away from the Internet: August 9-19th)

To use a line from an old John Denver song . . . Off I go to Nova Scotia and other beautiful wild places, from August 9th-19th. I will be away from my blog, e-mail, and computer, period (I don't have a laptop, and wouldn't take it anyway, if I did). If people want to continue various discussions while I am away, I have left the discussion thread below this one and the present one, which can handle up to 100 comments total in the BlogBack. Perhaps the three Reformed Protestant brothers I have recently challenged (also two others who say they are preparing a reply to former discussions) will have time to do a refutation in the next twelve days. I hope so; then I can enjoy some more good dialogue when I get back.

God bless you all, and if I have any prayer request, it would be (besides safe travel for our 3000 mile + journey) that our four young children (13, 11, 7, 2) do not totally disrupt the solitude, quiet, enjoyment of some beautiful parts of God's creation, and "getting away" mode that my wife and I so desperately need and seek, after constant work and the usual trials of parenthood over the previous year since our last "getaway." Thanks! In any event, she won't have to cook and I won't have to work (both writing and now delivery) for a full eleven days, and that is something we both eagerly look forward to. Hopefully, the kids will be happy with all the fun things we'll be doing (you never know with young 'uns), and be less of a "challenge" as well! :-) Everyone needs a break from the usual routine now and then.

Tolle, lege!

Open Discussion Forum #1

[to be used by the regulars here during my vacation: August 9-19]

Tolle, lege!

Dialogue With Tim Gallant on Whether the Mass is Similar to Jeroboam's Idolatry

Pastor Tim Gallant (Presbyterian), was responding to certain comments of mine in my post, Reply to Pastor Steve Schlissel's Reflections on "Romanism." His words (initially written in the thread, "What Thinkest Thou?" on the Reformed Catholicism blog) will be in blue:

If only the Hebrew prophets could have recognized that the really important thing about Jeroboam's calves was that he intended Yahweh to be worshipped through them, they clearly would never have objected. No, sorry, Dave, the issue in question is not "seeing into the heart of the worshipper." I suggest that the parallels of Scripture point to two things:

(1) Rome, like the northern kingdom, is in many fundamental respects, one people of God with Protestants; and

(2) Rome's worship needs serious reformation at a very fundamental level, and sharing in those aspects of worship peculiar to it (and I am thinking specifically of the idolatry issue here) would
be sinful -- just as the children of Judah were not to worship before Jeroboam's calves.

Of course, I will also add that (1) so does much of modern Protestantism's worship require some pretty radical reformation, as well; and (2) we all have a long way to go in terms of obeying the ninth commandment.

Hi Tim G.,

Again, you (as so many Protestants do) fundamentally misunderstand the crucial distinctions between Catholic eucharistic adoration and ancient idolatry and Baal-worship. You falsely portray the situation with Jeroboam, not even accurately representing what happened there. As a pastor who knows his Bible, you should know far better than this. As it is, a lowly Catholic has to correct you from the Bible. :-)

Ahijah spoke the word of the Lord concerning Jeroboam's sin:

. . . you have done evil above all that were before you and have gone and made for yourself other gods, and molten images, provoking me to anger, and have cast me behind your back.

(1 Kings 14:9; RSV)

Also:

So the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold. And he said to the people, "You have gone up to Jerusalem long enough. Behold your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt." . . .

. . . and he offered sacrifices upon the altar; so he did in Bethel, sacrificing to the calves that he had made.

(1 Kings 12:28,32)

Note: this is not intending "Yahweh to be worshipped through" the graven images, as you claim, but rather (according to God Himself, Who knows all things) "other gods." Jeroboam himself refers to "gods": a rank polytheism and idolatry indeed. We know that he sacrificed to these stupid molten images. It couldn't be more clear than it is. Yet you represent it as his thinking that he was worshiping Yahweh.

Secondly, this is truly idolatry according to the Commandments, since another God is involved. Anti-Catholics may claim that Catholics are worshiping other gods in the Mass, but no documentation whatever can be produced for this spurious charge. It is produced simply because classic Calvinism is unbiblically iconoclastic, which runs blatantly contrary to the Tradition of ancient Catholicism and Nicaea II.

Thirdly, it was our Lord Jesus Himself who held up bread in His hands and said "this is My body" and told His disciples to do the same in memory of Him. If we merely follow His model for worship, how in the world is that "idolatry", let alone worship of other gods??!! Granted, folks interpret the Eucharist differently, but even Luther held to Real Presence, and Calvin in some sense, too. So how can the adoption of transubstantiation somehow move Catholics into the realm of outright idolatry and "Baal-worship"?

Fourth, if Jesus is "really present" then He ought to be "really worshiped"! If He isn't "really present," then He cannot be worshiped as "really present"! This is not rocket science. But some Protestants want to have it both ways: a "real presence" without a "real worship" which is appropriate if our Lord Jesus is really there. It is a ludicrous contention from beginning to end.

Fifth, if any use of any representation whatsoever of God is to be condemned as idolatrous, then Jesus was an idolater, since He said of ostensible bread, "this is my body." That being absurd, the position collapses in a reductio ad absurdum.

Sixth, all these high places and shrines and altars set up in places other than at the Temple were condemned by God and the Law. So they were in violation of clear divine commandments and will, in addition to being idolatrous already (again, quite different from the celebration of the Eucharist that Jesus commanded as the central act of Christian worship).

The New Bible Dictionary (edited by J.D. Douglas, 1962), in its article on Jeroboam, noted:

They threatened true religion by encouraging a syncretism of Yahweh worship with the fertility cult of Baal and thus drew a prophetic rebuke.

(p. 614)

Likewise, in its article on "Idolatry":

[I]t is a most significant thing that when Israel turned to idolatry it was always necessary to borrow the outward trappings from the pagan environment . . . The golden calves made by Jeroboam (1 Ki 12:28) were well-known Canaanite symbols, and in the same way, whenever the kings of Israel and Judah lapsed into idolatry, it was by means of borrowing and syncretism.

(p. 552)

I rest my case. See my similar paper, "Is the Mass Equivalent to Golden Calf Worship?"

Baal worship?

Well, yes, at least partially, according to the New Bible Dictionary, which is not exactly an organ of Catholic propaganda. Commentators and ancient near east scholars think it is a mixed bag. You don't accept the reasoning of this reputable Protestant scholarly source, so I will give you another one: The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary, revised edition, edited by Allen C. Myers, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1987 (from Bibjbelse Encyclopedie, Kampen: J.H. Kok, 1975, edited by W.H. Gispen et al), "Jeroboam," p. 568:

. . . Jeroboam erected golden calves at Bethel and Dan for Israel's worship ([1 Ki] 12:26-30); although not meant as idols but as pedestals for Yahweh, the calves were soon enmeshed in a syncretistic blend with Baalism, the symbol of which was the bull (cf. Hos. 8:5-6; 13:2; see GOLDEN CALF).

The "pedestals for Yahweh" theme was also mentioned in the New Bible Dictionary, citing the celebrated biblical archaeologist William F. Albright. Moving over to the other article referenced, we find:

The text [i.e., regarding Aaron and the Golden Calf] does not state whether the intent was to make an image of Yahweh . . . The people proclaimed it to be the god who brought Israel out of Egypt (cf. Neh. 9:18; Ps. 106:19-23) . . .

During the divided monarchy Jeroboam I of Israel (ca. 922-901 B.C.) placed a calf in each of the traditional sanctuaries of Dan and Bethel (1 Kgs. 12:26-33) as part of the plan to legitimize his rule. While he may actually have intended to foster worship of Yahweh, Jeroboam's actions were denounced as pagan (v. 30; 2 Kgs. 10:29; 17:16; 2 Chr. 13:8 . . . The calf worship mentioned in the mid-eighth century oracles of the prophet Hosea (Hos. 8:5-6; 10:5-6; 13:2) may allude to these or similar abuses or may refer more generally to increased syncretism in Israelite religion.

(p. 430)

Albright, in his discussion of the bulls of Jeroboam (referenced above), noted:

So Jeroboam may well have been harking back to early Israelite traditional practice when he made the "golden calves." It is hardly necessary to point out that it was a dangerous revival, since the taurine associations of Baal, lord of heaven, were too closely bound up with the fertility cult in its more insidious aspects to be safe. The cherubim, being mythical animals, served to enhance the majesty of Yahweh, "who rides on a cherub" (II Sam. 22:11) or "who thrones on the cherubim" (II Kings 19:15, etc.), but the young bulls of Bethel and Dan could only debase His cult.

(From the Stone Age to Christianity, 2nd edition, Garden City, NY: Doubleday Anchor, 1957, 301)

Thus, ironically, in helping to establish your point that it was indeed Yahweh who was consciously being worshiped through images (albeit those closely associated with pagan and heathen idolatry), it is shown that the notion of images "under" God as a pedestal is orthodox and biblical and not contrary to monotheism, for this was the imagery of the temple and the ark of the covenant (the cherubim in proximity to the invisible one and only God, Who is a Spirit). Therefore, it is not image per se which is expressly forbidden, but graven images, which is a sub-class and a particular forbidden manifestation. The Golden Calves and bulls were graven images and idols precisely because they were associated with pagan polytheistic and idolatrous belief-systems, even though they may have been regarded as "pedestals" by some or many. The cherubim of the Temple and the ark, on the other hand, were not so associated, and in fact, were commanded by God.

The brilliant biblical scholar F.F. Bruce draws a similar comparison and contrast (I found this after I wrote the above analysis):

. . . golden images of bull-calves were installed, to serve as the visible pedestal for the invisible throne of Yahweh. This . . . represented a dangerous assimilation to Canaanite religious practice (although among the Canaanites a visible representation of the divinity was supported by the animal).

It may be asked whether there was any difference in principle between the use of bull-calf images to support Yahweh's invisible presence and the use of cherubs for the same purpose in the holy of holies at Jerusalem. The answer probably is that the cherubs were symbolical beings (representing originally the storm-winds) and their images were therefore not "any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth" [note: Ex. 20:4; Deut. 5:8], whereas the bull-calf images were all too closely associated with Canaanite fertility ritual. It appears from the ritual texts of Ugarit that El, the supreme God of the Canaanite pantheon, was on occasion actually hypostatized as a bull (shor), and known as
Shor-El.

(Israel and the Nations, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1963; reprinted 1981, 40-41)

So in the act of condemning Jeroboam's idolatry, we mustn't go too far and condemn all images. This is neither biblical nor the teaching of historic Christianity (Council of II Nicaea in 787). To condemn all such imagery whatsoever would be to eliminate orthodox, divinely-revealed Temple symbology and worship. That proves too much; therefore, this so-called "Reformed" argument collapses even before we get to illogical and absurdly forced comparisons of any of this to the Catholic Mass. It equates any image with graven images. The latter are forbidden in the Commandments, not the first. Jeroboam's imagery and practices were expressly forbidden by God; the Eucharist and the Real Presence were expressly instigated and demonstrated by our Lord Jesus Himself and reiterated in strong terms by the Apostle Paul.

You're the one not making necessary distinctions. I suggest you re-read the narrative of Kings a lot more closely. Jeroboam's "sin" is treated in radically different fashion from Baalism.

Well, sure, there can be differences in degree and nature of sin and disobedience, but that doesn't affect my overall argument, that I have carefully constructed, using all non-Catholic scholarly sources, as is my usual custom. What you neglect to see, however, is the association with Baalism. All the scholars above believe this, but you do not, for some reason. Why do they mention Baal at all if there is no connection at all here?

Joseph P. Free, in his Archaeology and Bible History (Wheaton, IL: Scripture Press Publications, revised edition of 1969, 180-181) is inclined to take an even more negative view towards Jeroboam's idols:

The archaeological discoveries in Egypt, however, show the presence of bovine worship there. The sacred bull was an object of worship in Egypt, its tomb being found at Memphis during the last century. The sacred cow was the symbol of the goddess Hathor. In the light of this evidence, it is more likely that Jeroboam became acquainted with bovine worship when he fled to Egypt while Solomon was yet alive (1 Kings 11:40, 12:2), and upon his return to Palestine introduced the worship of that which he had observed in Egypt. The German Egyptologist, Steindorff, as well as the American Old Testament scholar, George L. Robinson, both reflect what we believe to be the correct view, that is, that Jeroboam was inclined toward setting up bovine worship from what he observed in Egypt.

I am more inclined to agree with Albright's and Bruce's and the Bible Dictionaries' explanation myself. I find them to be more plausible, knowing what relatively little I do about the subject.

"Elohim" is plural in form, and thus can be translated either "God" or "gods." Yes, God does treat this as idolatry, because He does not acknowledge that He is worshipped through this. So no surprise that He says that Jeroboam has gone after "other gods." But Jeroboam's own statement that these calves have to do with the Elohim who brought Israel up from Egypt makes it very clear that in his mind, he has not changed gods.

I agree, yet there are associations with pagan polytheism and idolatry that cannot be gotten over.

It is clear that the plural verb is at most dependent upon the fact that he has two calves, not two gods (otherwise, he would have two calves in each place of worship, rather than one); more likely, it is simply due to the plural construction of Elohim, since the plural is also used in Ex 32, and it is clear that Aaron made only one calf.

Jeroboam and all his people knew that it was Yahweh who brought Israel out of Egypt, and indeed he himself knew that it was a prophet of Yahweh who promised the kingdom to him. His employment of the calves was explicitly a cultic-political move (see 1 Kg 12.27), not a self-conscious exchange of deities.

As shown above, I agree in part, but you still have to adequately explain the two passages above that I cited. God Himself stated that Jeroboam made "other gods" (1 Kings 14:9). Why didn't God simply say something like, "you have made images of Me that I do not allow"? What more is needed? If God reveals in Holy Scripture and directly to the person involved that he has made "other gods," then isn't that sufficient? Sure, there are complexities here, but we shouldn't overlook the basic data that we have.

Furthermore, we are informed that he was "sacrificing to the calves that he had made" (1 Ki 12:32). Why doesn't the text say, "sacrificing to Yahweh through the images of Yahweh that he had made"?

Furthermore, on your explanation, it is inexplicable why God treats Baalism in a radically different fashion from Jeroboam's sin. Ahab does "more evil than all before him" - why? because he explicitly adopts another god, Baal. Meanwhile, on your view, Jehu slaughters all the priests of Baal (on Yahweh's orders) and then self-consciously worships gods other than Yahweh, since he maintains the system of worship of Jeroboam (2 Kg 10.28ff). Frankly, I find that very hard to believe. Your handling of the passages has an initial plausibility but simply will not stand up.

But I made no such argument. I know you think this reductio follows from my argument, but it does not, necessarily. Sinful practices develop over time and get worse. Jeroboam's worship was syncretistic, whereas Ahab took it to the next level. So his sin was worse. But that doesn't get Jeroboam off the hook. Nor does any of this prove that the Mass is an instance of the same sort of idolatry: whether pure and gross, or syncretistic. I've backed myself up with scholars (and some of the very best at that). You have simply given your own opinion. It is, I'm sure, based on scholarly interpretations at some point, too, but I don't know what those might be unless and until you present to me the documentation.

The Jeroboam issue (and likely Aaron's calf, as well) has to do with the false worship of the true God. In Deut 12.29ff, God says that Israel is not only not to follow the gods of the Canaanites, but they are not to worship Yahweh in the way the Canaanites worship their gods (Dt 12.31). That is the point at issue with Jeroboam, and because it is so, He does not account Jeroboam's worship as true worship.

I agree again, but there are other factors to consider (that you neglect), as recounted above.

Yes, He calls them other gods - for much the same reason that Protestants have historically identified Roman Catholic worship as idolatrous. Most of us are well aware that RC self-understanding is not that you conceive yourselves as worshipping other gods. The issue (on Protestant and E.O. division of the commandments) is 2nd commandment, not 1st commandment.

The issue is also the nature of idolatry, correctly understood, and what is forvidden by God in terms of images (i.e., what is a graven image). I think I have made a bit of a deeper analysis than you have, here.

As for "this is My body," I'm sure you know that the arguments against your position are much better than you present.

I've dealt with those at length elsewhere. I cannot adequately get into that in this context, as it is ultimately a separate issue.

None of the disciples worshipped the bread.

Of course not; nor do any Catholics. That is not at issue. We are worshiping our Lord Jesus Christ.

It would have been unthinkable for them to suppose that the substance of Jesus' body had moved from the Person speaking to them to the bread that He was holding in His hand. No Jew on earth would have misunderstood what He said, and that is why we [have] no biblical record of worship of the elements.

We do not contend that they could or should have understood everything at that extraordinary moment. But this was merely one of many very difficult things they had to understand -- only made possible by the help of the Holy Spirit (including the Resurrection itself, which no one shows any indication of comprehending, until after it happened, despite repeated predictions from Jesus).

As for "worship of the elements" in Scripture (or what we would call eucharistic adoration), there is indeed explicit biblical warrant, from St. Paul:

1 Corinthians 10:16 (RSV) The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?

(Read 10:14-22 for the context)

1 Corinthians 11: 27-30 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.

(Read 11:23-26 for the context)

James Cardinal Gibbons comments on these passages:

Could St. Paul express more clearly his belief in the Real Presence than he has done here? . . . He who receives a Sacrament unworthily shall be guilty of the sin of high treason, and of shedding the blood of his Lord in vain. But how could he be guilty of a crime so enormous if he had taken in the Eucharist only a particle of bread and wine? Would a man be accused of homicide . . . if he were to offer violence to the statue or painting of the governor? Certainly not. In like manner, St. Paul would not . . . declare a man guilty of trampling on the blood of his Savior by drinking in an unworthy manner a little wine in memory of him.

(The Faith of Our Fathers, New York: P. J. Kenedy & Sons, rev. ed., 1917, 242-243)

Martin Luther explains the Real Presence very well, yet fails to realize that if Jesus is really present, then it follows straightforwardly that He can be really worshiped. It's not rocket science. If He is truly there, he can be worshiped, just as He was when He walked the earth as a man. And that is all there is to eucharistic adoration. But be that as it may, Luther is brilliant, as far as he is willing to go, regarding this topic:

[T]his word of Luke and Paul is clearer than sunlight and more overpowering than thunder. First, no one can deny that he speaks of the cup, since he says, “This is the cup.” Secondly, he calls it the cup of the new testament. This is overwhelming, for it could not be a new testament by means and on account of wine alone.

(Against the Heavenly Prophets in the Matter of Images and Sacraments, 1525; LW, 40, 217)

He thinks one does not see that out of the word of Christ he makes a pure commandment and law which accomplishes nothing more than to tell and bid us to remember and acknowledge him. Furthermore, he makes this acknowledgment nothing else than a work that we do, while we receive nothing else than bread and wine.

(Ibid., LW, 40, 206)

Commenting on 1 Corinthians 10:16. Luther writes, forcefully:

. . . The bread which is broken or distributed piece by piece is the participation in the body of Christ. It is, it is, it is, he says, the participation in the body of Christ. Wherein does the participation in the body of Christ consist? It cannot be anything else than that as each takes a part of the broken bread he takes therewith the body of Christ . . .

(Ibid.; LW, 40, 178)

Finally, St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 10:14-22, in an explicitly eucharistic passage, uses language suggesting that he sees the eucharist as a sacrifice involving an altar (hence priesthood, hence the Sacrifice of the Mass): He mentions the "altar" of the Old Covenant in 10:18 and makes a direct analogy with the altar of the New Covenant in 10:21:

You cannot drink of the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.

In my opinion, all of this suggests explicit New testament reference to eucharistic adoration, because that notion cannot be separated from Real (or, Substantial) Presence, which is clearly taught in the New Testament.



Tolle, lege!

Dialogue With Dr. Paul Owen on John Calvin's Anti-Catholicism (Greatly Expanded)

His piece, "On Historical Context," was posted on the Reformed Catholicism blog: "

Dr. Owen's words (presented here in their entirety) will be in blue. Calvin's will be in red, Luther's in green, and Melanchthon's in purple.

Hi Paul,

Now, I've said very nice things about you in another thread, so remember that when you are reading this. :-) I think much of your writing is very good. My problem has been extreme difficulty in trying to get you (and any other Reformed Catholic) to interact with any of the critiques of your position that I offer. Is that because of presuppositionalist methodology (as I increasingly suspect) or something else?

So here goes. You can respond if you wish. I sincerely hope that you do, so the discussion can advance instead of being stymied by refusal to go to the necessary next step in a discussion. As a scholar, it is clear that you understand the place of critique in discussion of vexed and controversial issues. I need not belabor that point. You've bumped heads with your Protestant nemeses, why not with a Catholic once in a while? With that stated, I proceed where angels fear to tread . . .

One of the problems with many pastors in our day in age, is they simply do not understand the historically conditioned nature of all written texts, biblical or otherwise. They simply look at the Bible, or Reformational commentaries on the Bible, as a phone directory of prooftexts, from which they are free to choose at random. This is how they preach, and this is how they conduct their ugly polemics on the internet.

That may be, but with regard to Calvin's and Luther's anti-Catholicism, I, too, would stand guilty of the same thing, by deduction, because I think I have demonstrated conclusively from their own words that both were anti-Catholics. I agree even with the anti-Catholics about that. That school and myself and many other Catholics are on one side of this question; you and your fellow reformed Catholics on the other.

Strange bedfellows, but there you have it. Truth is what it is. The anti-Catholics may stumble upon it or believe it for all the wrong reasons, and with (possibly) the basest of motives, but it is still historical truth nonetheless.

Minor "loopholes" and anomalies exist, yes, I agree, but in the main Luther and Calvin (and virtually all the other so-called "reformers" I have seen) virulently opposed that institution (the historical Catholic Church) of which I am a member. They can try to come up with a mythical proto-Protestant early "catholic" Church all they want, but many facts have to be squarely faced, and they are not being faced. As I proceed, I will offer at least one highly-important crystal-clear example of this.

Recently, a Presbyterian pastor, who has shown himself to be particularly prone to melting down when confronted with facts that conflict with the canned, simplistic presentations of theology which were spoon-fed to him in seminary,

I agree with this, if the person is who I think it is, because he has done this in encounters with me as well.

has taken to posting little snippets from Calvin on the internet, which allegedly promote his own ugly and just downright ignorant view of the Roman Catholic Church.

I guess I am "ignorant" of my own Church that I defend for a living, too, then, since I have lots of similar quotes from Calvin and Luther that you guys simply dismiss with the wave of a hand and a sneer as all (without exception) taken out of context. It has almost become the be-all, end-all, reformed Catholic mantra. "Defeat" any argument with the "c" word: "context."

This enables one to not actually deal directly with the quote(s) in question, but rather, to readily dismiss it by appealing to the answer to everything: the "c" word. This will not do, because (again, as a scholar I assume you must know this) for a charge of botched context to be plausibly made, obviously it must be substantiated with some minimum of proof besides merely stating the charge, which is no rational proof at all, but rather, a bald appeal to authority (in this case, your own).

The reason this pastor can quote such comments with glee is because he is not conversant in any serious way with the historical context of the Reformation.

Here we go. He may indeed be ignorant in this way (I wouldn't be surprised, frankly), but you would have to substantiate that as well. Just saying it is not impressive at all.

When reading polemical statements which were made by Calvin and other Reformers against the Roman Catholic Church, it is important to place these statements in the broader historical context.

More of the same boilerplate, but let's see what you have:

The following points summarize that context.

1. Calvin's polemics were aimed primarily at the hierarchy of the RCC, not the Church as a whole. As Calvin said to Cardinal Sadoleto: "We indeed, Sadoleto, deny not that those over which you preside are Churches of Christ, but we maintain that the Roman Pontiff, with his whole herd of pseudo-bishops, who have seized upon the pastor's office, are ravening wolves, whose only study has hitherto been to scatter and trample upon the kingdom of Christ."

I agree that the hierarchy and corruption therein was Calvin's primary target; however, that doesn't get you or him "off the hook" at all, for the simple reason that Calvin's charges were far more sweeping than just the leadership of the Church, and in fact, extended to every orthodox, practicing Catholic, then and now. This is quite easy to establish and prove. How? Well, by examining what he said about the Mass, which is no less than the central act of worship and the center of every Catholic's Sunday activities at church. If the Mass is what Calvin said it was, then his criticisms affect every one of us equally: to the extent that we all attend Mass and believe in transubstantiation and the Sacrifice of the Mass. And what did Calvin think of that? I have already documented it.

The great man and sage Calvin writes in his all-knowing Institutes:

Hence the Papists act unjustly when they would compel us to communion with their Church. Their two demands. Answer to the first. Sum of the question. Why we cannot take part in the external worship of the Papists.

Now then let the Papists, in order to extenuate their vices as much as possible, deny, if they can, that the state of religion is as much vitiated and corrupted with them as it was in the kingdom of Israel under Jeroboam. They have a grosser idolatry, and in doctrine are not one whit more pure; rather, perhaps, they are even still more impure . . . But in these men, I mean the Papists, where is the resemblance? Scarcely can we hold any meeting with them without polluting ourselves with open idolatry. Their principal bond of communion is undoubtedly in the Mass, which we abominate as the greatest sacrilege.

(IV, 2, 9)

I asked Tim Enloe straight out if he thought the Mass was a Christian form of worship. He said (after several refusals to answer and much profoundly ridiculous ranting) "I don't know." He doesn't know! Do YOU know? Maybe you have figured out what he hasn't. If not, then how can we be Christians if our worship every week is such that it is abominable blasphemy and sacrilege, etc. and y'all "don't know" if it is Christian or not? You can't figure it out. But you are sure we are Christian because Calvin said our baptisms are valid? Give me (us) a break! In a certain limited sense this is even more condescending tripe than what the anti-Catholics dish out.

In the same Reply to Sadoleto that you cite, Calvin called transubstantiation a "gross dogma" and a "vile superstition." Elsewhere he calls it a "fiction." He calls adoration of the consecrated Host "abominable idolatry" and as sinful as "the worship of the Statue at Babylon" and a "sink of pollution and sacrilege." Again in the Reply to Sadoleto he writes about this:

In . . . declaring that stupid adoration which detains the minds of men among the elements, and permits them not to rise to Christ, to be perverse and impious, we have not acted without the concurrence of the ancient Church, under whose shadow you endeavor in vain to hide the very vile superstitions to which you are here addicted.

Likewise, Calvin wrote about the Sacrifice of the Mass:

. . . the mere name of Sacrifice (as the priests of the Mass understand it) both utterly abolishes the cross of Christ, and overturns his sacred Supper which he consecrated as a memorial of his death. For both, as we know, is the death of Christ utterly despoiled of its glory, unless it is held to be the one only and eternal Sacrifice; and if any other Sacrifice still remains, the Supper of Christ falls at once, and is completely torn up by the roots . . .

Will it still be denied to me that he who listens to the Mass with a semblance of Religion, every time these acts are perpetrated, professes before men to be a partner in sacrilege, whatever his mind may inwardly declare to God?

. . . In the Mass Christ is traduced, his death is mocked, an execrable idol is substituted for God -- shall we hesitate, then, to call it the table of demons? Or shall we not rather, in order justly to designate its monstrous impiety, try, if possible, to devise some new term still more expressive of detestation? Indeed, I exceedingly wonder how men, not utterly blind, can hesitate for a moment to apply the name "Table of Demons" to the Mass, seeing they plainly behold in the erection and arrangement of it the tricks, engines, and troops of devils all combined . . . I have long been maintaining on the strongest grounds that Christian men ought not even to be present at it!

From: On Shunning the Unlawful Rites of the Ungodly, and Preserving the Purity of the Christian Religion.

(1537; translated by Henry Beveridge, 1851; reprinted in Selected Works of John Calvin: Tracts and Letters, Vol. 3: Tracts, Part 3, edited by Henry Beveridge and Jules Bonnet, Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1983; citations from pp. 383, 386-388)

And from the Institutes:

Scarcely can we hold any meeting with them without polluting ourselves with open idolatry. Their principal bond of communion is undoubtedly in the Mass, which we abominate as the greatest sacrilege.

(IV, 2, 9)

What remains but that the blind may see, the deaf hear, and even children understand this abomination of the Mass? . . . it . . . has so stricken them with drowsiness and dizziness, that, more stupid than brute beasts, they have steered the whole vessel of their salvation into this one deadly whirlpool. Surely, Satan never prepared a stronger engine to besiege and capture Christ's Kingdom . . . they so defile themselves in spiritual fornication, the most abominable of all . . . The Mass . . . from root to top, swarms with every sort of impiety, blasphemy, idolatry, and sacrilege.

(IV, 18, 18)

(See more in my paper on the subject: "John Calvin & St. Cyril of Jerusalem: Comparative Eucharistic Theology")

So which is it, Paul? Do you accept Calvin's estimation of the Sacrifice of the Mass, transubstantiation, and eucharistic adoration or not? If so, how can we be Christians in any sensible form of the word and concept? If not, then come right out and say that Calvin was dead-wrong about this, and contradicts himself when he says we are minimally Christian -- insofar as we are at all -- because of baptism.

2. Calvin's polemics were given in a context of unprecedented resistance to reforms which were widely recognized as necessary, even within the Church; reforms which would have brought the Church back into line with Scripture and Catholic consensus. Just read Calvin's description of the state of the Church in Institutes 4.5.1-19. Thus, the resistance to these reforms was interpreted as reflecting an obsession with maintaining the status quo, and the wealth, luxury, licentiousness and privileges of the Catholic leadership, rather than a concern for the health of the Church. In such a context, polemics can get very heated.

Fine; but I consider this (beyond the non sequitur of moral corruption, which everyone admits on all sides) another diversion from the issue at hand (which is stuff like the above: direct; right between the eyes; where the rubber meets the road; brass tacks: do Catholics worship Jesus every Sunday as their Lord or commit these unspeakably blasphemous acts of idolatry, routinely, regularly, by definition?).

The fact remains that Calvin threw all this out. And it is equally obvious that the medieval Church and people like Bernard and Aquinas all believed in these things, as Catholics do today. You can't avoid this. It has to be squarely faced. You can't play games and close your eyes and put your head in the sand and ignore the Mass. It simply can't be done: not if you are serious about considering the Christian status of Catholics and the [Roman] Catholic Church -- that entity historically headed by a pope.

3. Protestants were being horribly persecuted in some sections of Europe. This tends to put a bitter edge on theological exchanges.

That works both ways, too, and so resolves nothing. It is a wash, broadly-speaking. But I'll play your game for a minute. Okay, suppose persecution and the need for some kind of reform (not the revolution that Calvin and Luther brought) can explain these sorts of "anti-Catholic" utterances. Let's assume that for the sake of argument. Are you saying, then, that Calvin didn't really mean all that I have cited him saying above? That was all in a passionate moment when he was distraught over the state of the Church? He had a bad day or was suffering from a bout of verbal diarrhea? If so, then he must have suffered from these maladies frequently, or refused to re-read his manuscripts before they went to press. I find the position ludicrous . . .

4. In spite of his polemics, and in spite of the fact that he insisted that the RCC was so corrupted as to call for separation from her practices (4.2.10), in Institutes 4.2.11 he insists that "certain peculiar prerogatives" still remained with the RCC. He maintains that the Roman Catholics are still God's "children," even in the midst of corruption, just as was the case in the time of Ezekiel. Calvin insists that Roman Catholic baptisms are still a valid "witness" to God's covenant with them, and that "other vestiges" remain, so that "the church" within (though not identical to) the RCC remains. In 4.2.12 he again maintains the "existence of churches" within the RCC, though they have no right to call themselves "THE" Church. Calvin insists that the name of Christ and the church has not been wiped out by the tyrrany of the Pope over the papal communion.

I know all this, but so what? It doesn't change the fact that we are scarcely Christian at all, if Calvin's most gracious comparison is to ancient Babylon, or "Israel under Jeroboam," etc. C'mon! You think we are supposed to receive this "ecumenical" news with gleefulness and joy, because old man Calvin thinks we are as Christian as the grossest idolaters in ancient history were observant Jews? I think you are laboring under tremendous misconceptions.

5. Calvin signed the ecumenically minded Augsburg Confession, and approved of the ecumenical dialogue between Protestants and Catholics which took place at the Conference of Regensburg. How many evangelical Presbyterian pastors today could give full approval to that Confession and that Conference? That should show you the GULF in attitude which separates Calvin from his combative theological step-children.

There is some difference, but one must remember that in those days the revolution was still young, and there was still some chance (however remote) of it being a reform and not merely separatist and sectarian. The Diet of Augsburg and the Augsburg Confession as a supposed effort of unification with the Catholic Church is a joke.

Catholic historian Warren Carroll described the proceedings and the lack of tolerance in the Lutheran party:

Early in July the bishops presented their complaints to the Diet of the plundering and destruction of churches, seizure of monasteries and hospitals, prohibition of Masses, and attacks on religious procesions by the Protestants. When Charles called upon the Protestants to restore the property they had seized, they said