The 27 Greatest Woody Guthrie Songs (One CD)

I've been wanting to put this collection together for many years. Anyone who wants to understand American folk music, the dust bowl, the folk revival of the 50s and 60s, Bob Dylan and Bruce Springsteen, the 1930s and the Great Depression, the political liberalism and unionism of two or three generations ago, the hobo phenomenon, the "Okie Migrations," and singer-songwriters in general, will need to listen to and appreciate Woody Guthrie (1912-1967).

Here are what I consider his best songs in their superior and best-sounding versions: all available on albums from 1997 or later. The sound on all these particular recordings / remasters, is excellent (especially considering how old the originals are); the only exception being #27, which is a little "scratchy" -- but not all that bad (and who doesn't love the old "crackling vinyl" sound once in a while, for old time's sake?!). They fit on one CD, clocking in at around 78 minutes:

1. So Long, It's Been Good to Know Ya (recorded on 26 April 1940)

2. Do Re Mi (26 April 1940)

3. Blowin' Down the Road (26 April 1940)

4. I Ain't Got No Home (26 April 1940)

5. Dust Storm Disaster (26 April 1940)

6. Pretty Boy Floyd (26 April 1940)

7. Dust Bowl Refugee (26 April 1940)

8. Tom Joad (26 April 1940)

9. Dust Bowl Blues (26 April 1940)

10. Vigilante Man (26 April 1940)

11. Talking Dust Bowl Blues (26 April 1940)

12. Dust Pneumonia Blues (3 May 1940)

13. Hard Ain't it Hard (16 April 1944)

14. Philadelphia Lawyer (19 April 1944)

15. Grand Coulee Dam (19 April 1944)

16. The Great Historical Bum (19 April 1944)

17. Worried Man Blues (19 April 1944)

18. What Are We Waiting On? (19 April 1944)

19. This Land is Your Land (25 April 1944)

20. Hobo's Lullaby (25 April 1944)

21. Jesus Christ (25 April 1944)

22. 1913 Massacre (24 May 1945)

23. Pastures of Plenty (April 1947)

24. Ramblin' Round (April 1947)

25. Hard Travelin' (1947)

26. Oregon Trail (1947)

27. Roll On, Columbia (1947)


Album Information:

1-12 Dust Bowl Ballads (2000)

13-15, 17-19, 21 My Dusty Road (box set: 2009)

16, 20, 23-24 This Land is Your Land: The Asch Recordings, Vol. 1 (1997)

22, 25-26 Hard Travelin': The Asch Recordings, Vol. 3 (1998)

27 Columbia River Collection (download, 2011)

* * *

Books by Dave Armstrong: The Quotable Wesley: Theology and Conversion of Heart

Detail of Portrait by George Romney (1789): National Portrait Gallery, London.

[363 pages. Completed on 2 May 2012 and published by Lulu on the same day.]

-- for purchase information, go to the bottom of the page --

CONTENTS

Dedication (p. 3)

Introduction (p. 5) [read below]

Brief Biography of John Wesley (p. 9) [from Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1911]

Bibliography and Abbreviations (p. 15)

Quotations (p. 19)

Index of Topics [see below]

INTRODUCTION 

I have long felt an immense admiration for John Wesley, as a person of extraordinary “missionary zeal” and devotion to the gospel and Christianity: the man who is said to have delivered more than 40,000 sermons, and traveled more than 250,000 miles on horseback (almost the distance to the moon). As an apologist and (to some extent) evangelist myself, Wesley’s sterling example has always been a great inspiration.

 My background is broadly Wesleyan / Arminian, and I was raised initially in the United Methodist Church, though I hasten to add that in those days (up to age ten) I was quite ignorant of theology. In any event, my subsequent evangelical (and “moderately charismatic”) Protestant theological and spiritual development was not all that different from what Wesley or Methodism would teach. I even had an uncle (very sadly murdered at age 40) who was an Anglo-Catholic priest.

I entered the (Roman) Catholic Church in 1991. I mention this only for the sake of “full disclosure.” My intention is to present Wesley’s full theology and spiritual outlook, as a detached editor (as much as one can possibly be). I’m simply being open and honest upfront about my own possible biases.

John Wesley (it may surprise some to discover) never ceased being an Anglican. My own favorite writers are all either lifelong or initial Anglicans (C. S. Lewis, John Henry Cardinal Newman, G. K. Chesterton, Malcolm Muggeridge, and Thomas Howard). John Wesley is also among these Anglican writers and thinkers that I respect so much and love to read.

My first goal in my selection of Wesley’s writings is to provide the reader with Wesley’s theological views as he expressed them, and to locate (to the best of my ability, in my editor’s judgment) the most representative and best-expressed portions of his writings in order to fulfill that purpose.

The second, lesser aim (in harmony with the first) is ecumenical. Much of what Wesley held and expressed can be enthusiastically accepted by those from a wide spectrum of Christianity: Arminians, Catholics, Lutherans, Orthodox, Baptists, charismatics and non-denominational Christians, or self-described “evangelicals.” Even Calvinists (the traditional opposition to Wesleyans / Arminians) disagree mainly on a relatively small number of theological points.

In a broad sense, the theology and thoughts of John Wesley are treasures for all Christians. He was a great man, whose thinking and teachings ought to be more widely known and appreciated; and that is my third goal in compiling this book.

The quotations are categorized into 245 topics (see the Topical Index at the end), with entries drawn from the entire range of Wesley’s writing: his famous journal, letters, treatises, tracts, biblical commentary, and the “Minutes” of various Methodist conferences (dominated by Wesley, and certainly reflective of his own views). They are arranged chronologically within the categories, with dates (to the day, where known) and primary and secondary bibliographical documentation.

My sincere hope is that readers will benefit from these quotations from Wesley as much as I have in finding and sharing them. May his evangelistic zeal and Christian integrity and “heart for God” spread like wildfire.

INDEX OF TOPICS

Absolution 19

Alcohol 19

Anabaptists 19

Angels 19

Anglicanism 21

Anglicanism: Faithfulness to 22

Anglicanism: Opposition to Separation and a New Denomination 26

Anglicanism: Persecution of Anglican Methodists 32

Anointing the Sick with Consecrated Oil 34

Antinomianism (Falsity of) 34

Apocrypha (Deuterocanon) 36

Apostolic Succession 36

Arminianism 37

Atonement 38

Atonement, Limited (Falsity of) 38

Atonement: Universal 42

Authority, Obedience to 47

Baptism 47

Baptism and Being “Born Again” 48

Baptism and Justification 49

Baptism and Original Sin 50

Baptism and Salvation 51

Baptism, Infant 51

Baptismal Regeneration 52

Beatific Vision 54

Bishops 54

Bishops, Liberal or Nominal 54

Bishops (Opposed in Methodism) 55

Blessings (Priestly) 55

Bowing (at the Name of Jesus) 55

Buffoonery and Fools 55

Calling (Wesley’s) 56

Calvin, John 56

Calvinism: Criticisms of 57

Catholicism (Roman); Catholics 61

Celibacy and Singleness 64

Cheerfulness (and Christianity) 66

Childkilling 66

Christian 67

Christianity and Secular Knowledge 69

Church, The 71

Clothing 72

Communion, Holy: Daily Reception 72

Communion, Holy: Means of Grace 74

Communion, Holy: Preparation and Fitness for Reception 76

Communion, Holy: Real Presence 77

Communion, Holy: Transubstantiation (Falsity of) 78

Communion, Holy: Weekly Reception 78

Concupiscence 79

Confession 79

Confirmation (Rite) 79

Conversion 80

Demoniacs 80

Dialogue and Argument 82

Ecumenism; Religious Tolerance 85

Education, Methodist 91

Education, Secularization of 94

Election, Conditional 94

Election, Unconditional (Falsity of) 95

“Enthusiasm” (Opposition to) 97

Eucharistic Adoration (Wrongness of) 104

Eucharistic Sacrifice 104

Evangelism and Preaching, Lay 104

Examination of Conscience; Self-Examination 107

Experience, Religious 108

Extreme Unction (Falsity of) 110

Faith 111

Faith Alone (Falsity of) 113

Faith and Justification 114

Faith and Reason 115

Faith and Salvation 117

Faith and Works 118

Faith: Bold and Confident 123

Fasting 124

Fathers of the Church 125

Free Will 129

Friday Abstinence 131

Gifts, Extraordinary: Cessation of 132

God 132

God: All-Holy 134

God: Eternity of 134

God: His Providence 135

God: Just Judge 138

God: Omnipotence of 138

God: Omnipresence of 138

God: Omniscience of 140

God: Outside of Time 141

God: Sovereignty of 141

God: Sustainer of Creation 142

God: Will of 144

Gospel 144

Gossip 145

Government 146

Government, Church 146

Grace 148

Grace: Degrees or Greater Measure of 150

Grace, Falling Away from (Apostasy) 151

Grace, Irresistible (Falsity of) 157

Grace, Means of 159

Grace, Prevenient 160

Hades; Sheol; Paradise; Intermediate State 162

Happiness 164

Hardening of the Heart 165

Healing, Miraculous 166

Heartfelt Conversion; Wholehearted Devotion to God 168

Heathens and Salvation 172

Heaven 173

Hell 173

Henry VIII (and His Destruction of Catholic Churches) 175

Holiness 175

Holy Days 176

Holy Spirit 176

Holy Spirit: Being Filled With 176

Holy Spirit, Indwelling of 178

Holy Spirit: Testimony and Witness of 179

Jesus Christ 182

Jesus Christ: Creator 183

Jesus Christ: Divinity of 183

Jesus Christ: Savior and Redeemer 183

Jesus Christ: Sustainer of Creation 185

Jews and Salvation 185

Joy 186

Judgment of Nations 187

Justification 187

Justification and Absolute Assurance of Pardon; Fiducial Faith 190

Justification and Being “Born Again” 191

Justification and New Birth 191

Justification and Present Assurance 192

Justification and “Receiving the Holy Spirit” 192

Justification and Regeneration 192

Justification and Sanctification 193

Justification by Faith 195

Justification by Grace Alone 196

Justification, Imputed 198

Justification, Infused 201

Kingdom of Heaven 203

Kneeling and Bowing 203

Latitudinarianism 203

Law and Gospel 205

Law, God’s 206

Lent 207

Lots, Casting of 207

Love 208

Luther, Martin 209

Man, Purpose of 209

Marriage: Not a Sacrament 210

Mary 210

Mary: Perpetual Virginity of 210

Merit 210

Methodism 211

Methodism: American 214

Methodism: Danger of Liberalism and Nominalism 216

“Methodist” (Title) 216

Miracles 217

Miracles, Cessation (Falsity of) 219

Miracles, Demonic 220

Miracles: Unreasonable Demand for, as Proof of Methodism 220

Moravians 222

Music (Superiority of Melody to Harmony) 223

New Birth 224

New Birth and Sanctification 228

New Birth: Wesley’s Own 229

Nudity (in Art) 240

Ordination (Holy Orders); Priesthood 240

Original Sin 242

Orthodoxy (Correct Beliefs) 243

Peace of God 247

Peer Pressure 248

Pelagianism; Works Salvation (Falsity of) 248

Penance 250

Perfection (Entire Sanctification) 250

Perseverance, Unconditional (Falsity of) 259

Polemics; Controversy 259

Popes; Papacy 262

Popularity (in Old Age) 263

Prayer 263

Prayers for the Dead 265

Prayers, Extemporary 267

Prayers, Formal 267

Preaching 268

Preaching and Opposition (Riots, Etc.) 270

Preaching in the Fields 272

Predestination (Conditional) 278

Priests 279

Private Judgment 279

Purgatory; Preparation for Heaven in the Afterlife (and This Life) 280

Puritans 282

Quakers 282

Reading 283

Reformation, Protestant 283

Regeneration 284

Repentance 285

Reprobation, Unconditional (Falsity of) 286

Reproof; Rebuke 291

Revival 291

Revolution, American 295

Rewards in Heaven 296

Riches; Love of Money 296

Righteousness of Faith 298

Rule of Faith 299

Sabbath 301

Sacraments 302

Saints, Communion of 303

Saints, Honoring of 304

Saints, Intercession of 304

Salvation 304

Salvation and Invincible Ignorance 306

Salvation: Assurance of Final (Falsity of) 306

Sanctification 311

Sanctification and Salvation 313

Satan and His Demons (Fallen Angels) 314

Schism; Separation 319

Scripture and Learning 320

Scripture and Patristic Interpretation 321

Scripture: Chapter Divisions 321

Scripture, “Difficulties” in 322

Scripture: Formal Sufficiency 322

Scripture: Hermeneutics (Interpretation) 322

Scripture, Inspiration and Infallibility of 324

Scripture: Material Sufficiency 324

Scripture: Old Testament 325

Scripture: Unreasonable Demand for Explicit Prooftexts 326

Self-Defense 326

Sin 327

Sins, Forgiveness of 328

Slander 328

Slavery 329

Society and Christianity 332

Soul 333

Spirit (of Man) 333

Suffering 333

Talking 336

Temptation 336

Tongues, Gift of 337

Total Depravity 337

Tradition, Apostolic 339

Traditions of Men 340

Trinity, Holy 340

Trust in God 341

Truth 341

Unconditional Election (Falsity of Calvinist Version) 342

War 343

Whitefield, George (Calvinist Differences) 343

Works and Grace; Co-Laborers with God 344

Works (in Grace) and Salvation 348

Worship 350

Worship, Methodist 351

Writing 352

Zeal (Christian) 354

EXCERPTS

John Wesley's Belief in an Intermediate State After Death

John Wesley's Espousal of Prayer for the Dead

John Wesley's View of Purgatory and Analogous Processes: a Classic Case Study of Inadvertent Approximation of the Very Catholic Teaching He Ostensibly Opposes

John Wesley on Scripture and Patristic Interpretation [Facebook thread]

John Wesley Regarded Luther's Commentary on Galatians (Emphasizing "Faith Alone") as Blasphemy [Facebook thread]

John Wesley Was Opposed to Experiential "Enthusiasm"? Yes, He Was [Facebook thread]

Wesley's Reductio ad Absurdum Argument Against Calvinist Unconditional Election [Facebook thread]

John Wesley's Remarkable Tolerance Towards Catholics (Ecumenism) [Facebook thread]

John Wesley Explains Exactly What He Means by Perfection or Entire Sanctification [Facebook thread]

John Wesley on the American Revolution [Facebook thread]

John Wesley's Remarkable Observation About Christianity and Secular Learning [Facebook thread]

John Wesley on Polemics and Controversy [Facebook thread]

Methodist Education in 1768 [Facebook thread]

John Wesley: Unconditional Reprobation is Contrary to God's Justice and Mercy [Facebook thread]

Wesley on Sanctification and Salvation [Facebook thread] 

 BOOK REVIEWS

Brent Stubbs (5-17-12)

BACK COVER

Portrait by William Hamilton (1788)

PURCHASE INFORMATION

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Revised on 18 May 2012.

***

Books by Dave Armstrong: Beatles, Motown, Beach Boys, Etc.: Classic Rock Discographies, Commentary, and Mono vs. Stereo Analysis

 [213 pages; completed on 12 May 2012 and published the same day at Lulu]

--- for purchase information, go to the bottom ---

TABLE OF CONTENTS

Dedication / Nostalgic Reflection (p. 3) [read below]

THE BEATLES

1. Beatles Heaven: Review of the 2009 Remasters (p. 7)

2. The Ultimate Mono vs. Stereo Beatles Discography (p. 17)

3. Beatles Recordings: Chronological Master List (p. 31) [read expanded version online]

4. Review of The Capitol Albums, Volume 1 (American Versions) (p. 45) [read expanded version online]

5. The Beatles Are Still Around!: Paul McCartney Produces the Best Solo Beatle Album Ever (Electric Arguments) (p. 53)

6. Review of Two Beatles Imitation Groups: 1964-The Tribute and The Fab Four (p. 55) [read online version with many photos and links, including to videos]

MOTOWN / DETROIT ROCK

7. The Ultimate Collection of Chronological Motown Discographies (p. 61)           

  

8. The Best-Sounding Motown Recordings and 11-CD Compilation Set: 1959-1998 (p.105) 

9. Detroit “Blue-Eyed Soul”: Bob Seger (p. 119)  

10. Discography: Very Best of Detroit Rock: 1965-1975 (p.125)

BEACH BOYS

11. Beach Boys Recordings: 1961-1989: Chronological Discography (p. 129)

12. A Musical and Personal Miracle: Brian Wilson’s New [2004] Smile Album (p. 151)

MISCELLANEOUS

13. The Great R&B Songs of Van Morrison: 42 Sizzlers from 1964-2003 (p. 157) [read online version with links to Wikipedia album pages and song samples]

14. Rockabilly: “White Man’s R&B” (p.161)

15. Buddy Holly: Comprehensive Discography of His 50 Greatest Recordings (p. 167)

16. Sam Cooke: Two-CD Collection of His Best 55 Songs (p. 173) [read online, with lots of nice photos]

17. My 2009 “Pilgrimage” to Historic Blues and Country Sites, in the Mississippi Delta, Montgomery, Alabama, Memphis, Nashville, and Detroit (p. 177) [read online version, with massive number of links, including to Google maps of musically significant  locations]

18. Neil Diamond and the Glorious Year of 60+ Old Men in Rock Music (p. 189)

19. My Favorite Rock, Pop, and R&B Singles (p. 191)

20. The 50 Best Rock Albums: 1964-1997 (p. 209)

DEDICATION / NOSTALGIC REFLECTION

To my late brother Gerry Armstrong (1948-1998), who did the “60s thing” of being in a “blue-eyed soul” garage band in 1967, playing the organ for songs like Good Lovin’, 96 Tears, To Love Somebody, In the Midnight Hour, and their own original Miniskirt, thus causing our illustrious neighbor to call the police, in vain hopes of stopping the glorious sounds being produced in our dining room in working class southwest Detroit.

I got to play the drums and organ (not with the band!) and learn what “reverberation” was, by toying with the amplifier buttons. A “Motown scout” even came to the house one day, around 1970 or so. It came to nothing, but it was wonderful just the same. My sister Judy’s 45 records would fill the air, including, notably (and among many scores of great pop hits), Day Tripper, California Girls, Summer in the City, Beauty’s Only Skin Deep, But it’s Alright (J. J. Jackson), and Heavy Music (local hero Bob Seger).

I watched (during those happy formative years of my life) American Bandstand, Shindig, Hullabaloo, and Swingin’ Time, from Windsor, Ontario, across the river (Gerry and his band actually appeared on it one night). Of course, I was also there (all of five-and-a-half) watching with baited breath, The Ed Sullivan Show in January 1964, to see a certain new band from Liverpool, England. My three favorite songs still are (unsurprisingly) from the quintessential year of American Top 40: 1967: all of a soul / R&B style, and one even by a Detroiter (Jackie Wilson): most appropriate for a Motown native like myself.

BACK COVER

 

BACK COVER TEXT

Motown native and baby boomer Dave Armstrong (born in 1958) provides a goldmine of information in this homage to classic rock, with massive, fact-filled discographies of songs by Motown artists, The Beatles, The Beach Boys, Detroit Rock (1965-1975), Buddy Holly, Sam Cooke, and Van Morrison: including data concerning stereo and mono versions, recording dates, producers, songwriters, Billboard chart positions, best-sounding recordings, and many other facts.

Also contains chapters on the topics of rockabilly, a "blues and country musical pilgrimage" to the South, recent landmark albums by Paul McCartney and Brian Wilson, selected Beatles mono recordings (deemed as superior to their stereo counterparts), a review of Beatles imitation groups, Bob Seger, classic rock artists 60 years or older, and favorite singles and albums from the classic rock era.

A distinctly nostalgic tone is evident throughout. Any fan of classic rock (especially residents of Michigan and Detroiters) will love the musical reflections.

[smaller text at bottom]:

Lifelong metro Detroit resident DAVE ARMSTRONG grew up in southwest Detroit in the classic Motown era and "Golden Age of Pop" in the 1960s. He majored in music at Cass Technical High School (nationally renowned for its music program), playing trombone in the orchestra and band, and ushering at Detroit Symphony Orchestra concerts (his first job). Dave loves music of all kinds, has a vast personal collection, devours music biographies, and has played eight different musical instruments, including a mean blues harp.

 PHOTO INFORMATION

Front cover photograph:  Bob Seger in 1977 (unknown photographer): the year I first saw him in concert at Cobo Arena in Detroit (where Live Bullet was recorded in 1975, and where my high school graduation was held in June 1976), and just after he had finally hit it big nationally with his album, Night Moves; public domain per the Wikipedia file page.

Back cover photograph: Hitsville USA building (Motown) on West Grand Boulevard in Detroit, Michigan; taken on 19 June 2006 by Chris Butcher (cropped and greater contrast added); public domain per the Wikipedia file page.

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John Wesley's View of Purgatory and Analogous Processes: a Classic Case Study of Inadvertent Approximation of the Very Catholic Teaching He Ostensibly Opposes

I have noted on many occasions in the course of my research and apologetics dialogues, how Protestants (even major Protestant figures) will not infrequently hold an opinion highly similar to some particular Catholic belief, while at the same time railing against said Catholic belief, seemingly blissfully unaware of how close their own position is to the Catholic one. In most such cases, I think it is a matter of the Protestant being inadequately informed as to the precise nature of the Catholic belief. He or she fights a straw man; wars against a mere caricature of the actual Catholic teaching. If the belief were accurately understood in the first place, in these instances, it would actually be a welcome opportunity to find some common ground.

I believe this to be the case with regard to John Wesley and purgatory. He condemns the "Romish doctrine" -- yet I contend that once his own views are closely scrutinized, they turn out to be scarcely different from what Catholics believe with regard to purgatory. I noted this again and again in the course of my compiling his statements for my book, The Quotable Wesley (completed on 2 May 2012). I'd like to now use this interesting example as very illustrative of a general polemical tendency among Protestants.

Another similar dynamic I noticed in Wesley during my recent research was his denunciation of merit per se, yet simultaneous definition of "reward" in a way that it is virtually identical with what Catholics truly believe with regard to merit ("God crowning his own gifts": as St. Augustine put it: a line that is cited in the Catholic Catechism). Thus Wesley ends up condemning the notion of merit by that term, while practically asserting the same idea under another word. He even (almost sheepishly) notes in one place that he rejects merit, strictly speaking, but that "in a loose sense, meritorious means no more than rewardable" (Letter to his brother, Charles Wesley ; 3 August 1771). Elsewhere Wesley dances on the head of a pin again, with this issue:

Not by the merit of works, but by works as a condition. What have we then been disputing about for these thirty years? I am afraid, about words. As to merit itself, of which we have been so dreadfully afraid: we are rewarded 'according to our works,' yea, because of our works. How does this differ from 'for the sake of our works'? And how differs this from 'secundum merita operum'?— As our works deserve? Can you split this hair? I doubt, I cannot." (Large Minutes; 1770)

What Wesley teaches about works as the condition of salvation is not a whit different from what Catholics teach about merit. It's understood in both cases that the works and the merit as a result are entirely products of God's grace. Wesley knows that full well (as to his own traditional Anglican position), but he appears to not know that it is Catholic teaching as well. And so, because of that misunderstanding or ignorance, he splits hairs over the word "merit." He does seem to realize what is going on, though, in the probing analysis of the sentiment above.

With regard to purgatory, it's a very analogous process: he winds up teaching the notions that are the major marks of purgatory and its purpose, while denouncing it by name.  He also seems reluctant at a gut level -- for some reason -- to believe in continuing purging processes that he acknowledges in this life, as present also in the next life, while at the same holding that there are intermediate states, and that it is our duty to pray for those who are there. I will argue that this is internally inconsistent: that by his own interior logic and the biblical data, he should have come close to purgatory per se (just as, e.g., C. S. Lewis did: actual belief in purgatory as an Anglican).

I suppose, however, that in his circumstances: being accused as a "Jesuit" or a "papist" by hostile Anglicans, and of being a Pelagian (advocate of works-salvation) by Calvinists, Wesley was not exactly in a very good position to assert a "distinctively Catholic" position, even if he did become convinced of it. The order of the day in good olde merrie England was anti-Catholicism. Judged in the light of that 18th-century context, Wesley (highly influenced early on by Thomas a Kempis) shows himself extraordinarily ecumenical in other statements regarding Catholicism, and is not properly categorized as "anti-Catholic" (one who denies that Catholicism as a system is Christian). But that is another topic beyond our present purview.

Wesley clearly disavowed what he understood to be purgatory, as defined by Catholics:

. . . that those who die in a state of grace go into a place of torment, in order to be purged in the other world, is utterly contrary to Scripture. (Popery Calmly Considered; 1779)

He nevertheless accepted the premise that underlies our belief in the necessity of purgatory (in most cases):
 

. . . far other qualifications are required, in order to our standing before God in glory, than were required in order to his giving us faith and pardon. In order to this, nothing is indispensably required, but repentance, or conviction of sin. But in order to the other it is indispensably required, that we be fully cleansed from all sin: that the very God of peace sanctify us wholly, even . . . our entire body, soul, and spirit. . . . it is necessary in the highest degree, that we should thus wait upon him after justification. Otherwise, how shall we be 'meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light?' (Answer to the Rev. Mr. Church’s “Remarks on the Rev. Mr. Wesley’s Last Journal”; 2 February 1745)

Q. 2. What will become of a Heathen, a Papist, a Church of England man, if he dies without being thus sanctified? A. He cannot see the Lord. (Minutes of the Methodist Conference at Bristol; 2 August 1745)

. . . all writers whom I have ever seen till now (the Romish themselves not excepted) agree, that we must be fully cleansed from all sin, before we can enter into glory. (The Principles of a Methodist Farther Explained; 17 June 1746)

“Without holiness no man shall see the Lord,” shall see the face of God in glory. Nothing under heaven can be more sure than this:  . . . (A Blow at the Root; 1762)

All holiness must precede our entering into glory. (A Letter to the Rev. Dr. Horne; 5 March 1762)

None go to heaven without holiness of heart and life: . . . (Letter to Samuel Sparrow, Esq.; 28 Dec. 1773)

Thus far is agreement, and (as I have argued many times) the only difference lies in the time and duration involved, and whether this "cleansing" or "purging" can occur after death. Wesley acknowledges this in his words just prior to the 1746 quote above:

Indeed men do not agree in the time. Some believe it is attained before death: some, in the article of death: some, in an after-state; in the mystic, or the popish purgatory. 

Wesley famously held the doctrine of perfection, or entire sanctification. Here he defines that vastly misunderstood doctrine for us:

I want you to be all love. This is the perfection I believe and teach. . . . to set perfection too high, (so high as no man that we ever heard or read of attained,) is the most effectual (because unsuspected) way of driving it out of the world. (Letter to Miss Furly; 15 Sep. 1762)

Absolute or infallible perfection, I never contended for. Sinless perfection, I do not contend for, seeing it is not scriptural: . . . I acknowledge no such perfection; I do now, and always did protest against it. (Letter to Mrs. Maitland; 12 May 1763)

The perfection I hold is so far from being contrary to the doctrine of our Church, that it is exactly the same which every Clergyman prays for every Sunday: "Cleanse the thoughts of our hearts by the inspiration of thy Holy Spirit, that we may perfectly love thee, and worthily magnify thy holy name." I mean neither more nor less than this. In doctrine, therefore, I do not dissent from the Church of England. (An Answer to Mr. Rowland Hill’s Tract, Entitled, “Imposture Detected”; 28 June 1777)

. . . I advise you, frequently to read and meditate upon the thirteenth chapter of the First Epistle to the Corinthians. There is the true picture of Christian perfection! Let us copy after it with all our might. (Letter to Miss Ann Loxdale; 12 April 1782)

Briefly explained, he did not believe that every Christian received a "second blessing": at which time he or she became a perfect saint or angel. This was the caricature of his teachings that his opponents pushed (and still do, to this day). In fact, Wesley believed that he himself had not attained this entire perfection:
 

I never told you so, nor any one else. I no more imagine that I have already attained, that I already love God with all my heart, soul, and strength, than that I am in the third heavens. (Letter to “John Smith” [probably one of the Archbishops of Canterbury, Thomas Herring or Thomas Secker]; 22 March 1748)

I have told all the world I am not perfect; and yet you allow me to be a Methodist. I tell you flat, I have not attained the character I draw. (Letter to the editor of Lloyd’s Evening Post; 5 March 1767)

He refers to the relative rarity of such a momentous work of grace:

. . . few of those to whom St. Paul wrote his Epistles were so [sanctified] at the time he wrote: . . . Nor he himself at the time of writing his former Epistles: . . . (Minutes of the Methodist Conference at Bristol; 2 August 1745)

This being the case, it's fascinating that Wesley feels led to conclude (in order to be consistent with the parameters he sets for himself in his own reasoning) that the entire sanctification occurs shortly before death, in order to make a man fit for heaven:

But none who seeks it sincerely shall or can die without it; though possibly he may not attain it, till the very article of death. . . . we grant, . . . That the generality of believers whom we have hitherto known were not so sanctified till near death: . . . (Minutes of the Methodist Conference at Bristol; 2 August 1745)

We grant that many of those who have died in the faith, yea, the greater part of them we have known, were not sanctified throughout – not made perfect in love – till a little before death. (Minutes of the Methodist Conference of 17 June 1747)

I believe this perfection is always wrought in the soul by a simple act of faith; consequently, in an instant. . . . As to the time. I believe this instant generally is the instant of death, the moment before the soul leaves the body. (A Plain Account of Christian Perfection; 27 Jan. 1767)

My question for Wesley, and (since he is no longer with us: at least on earth) those who think as he does is, however: why the felt necessity or urge to make all this happen before death? Nothing in Scripture that I recall confines such purging to this life. Is it not a further act of God's mercy to accept those not fully cleansed of sin into the fold of the saved elect, by means of purgatorial cleansing, making them appropriately cleansed in order to enter into His presence? The Bible no more indicates that such a cleansing will occur right before death, than it refers (very often) to purging after death.

But I dare say there is more data about it occurring after death than right before. The judgment seat of Christ, e.g. (2 Cor 5:10) is after death, and it arguably involves some sort of purging, insofar as it is able to be distinguished at all from the Last Judgment. Whatever is going on in 1 Corinthians 3 (sure seems amazingly like purgatory: even mentioning "fire" in some sense) is after death, in the next life. Why, then, does Wesley assert purging prior to death while vehemently denying the same thing after death? It seems wholly arbitrary and based on nothing logically or biblically substantial. What we are informed of repeatedly in the Bible is the divinely ordained process of cleansing and its purpose: not so much how long it takes or when it happens.

In any event, Wesley acknowledges -- many times -- that processes of purging occur in this life. What he describes is (for my money) scarcely distinguishable from what a Catholic understands concerning purgatory: its purpose and goals both:

So the Lord has chastened and corrected you; but he hath not given you over unto death. It is your part to stand ready continually for whatever he shall call you to. Every thing is a blessing a means of holiness, as long as you can clearly say, “Lord, do with me and mine what thou wilt, and when thou wilt, and how thou wilt.” (Letter to Miss Bosanquet; 16 Aug. 1767)

The refiner’s fire purges out all that is contrary to love, and that many times by a pleasing smart. Leave all this to Him that does all things well, and that loves you better than you do yourself. (Letter to Walter Churchey; 21 Feb. 1771)

Conflicts and various exercises of soul are permitted; these also are for good. If Satan has desired to have you to sift you as wheat, this likewise is for your profit: You will be purified in the fire, not consumed, and strengthened unto all longsuffering with joyfulness. (Letter to Mrs. Mary Savage; 6 May 1771)

. . . it is good for you that every grain of your faith should be tried; afterwards you shall come forth as gold. See that you never be weary or faint in your mind; account all these things for your profit, that you may be a full partaker of His holiness, . . . (Letter to Miss Pywell; 29 Dec. 1774)

Gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. . . . You are suffering the will of God, and glorifying him in the fire. "But I am not increasing in the divine life." That is your mistake. Perhaps you are now increasing therein faster than ever you did since you were justified. (Letter to Miss Loxdale; 9 March 1782)

It has pleased God, for many years, to lead you in a rough and thorny way. But he knoweth the way wherein you go; and ‘when you have been tried, you shall come forth as gold.’ (Letter to Mrs. Jane Barton; 23 April 1783)

For it is not an easy thing always to remember, (then especially when we have most need of it,) that “the Lord loveth whom he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.” Who could believe it, if he had not told us so himself? (Letter to Mrs. Jane Barton; 11 June 1788)

A second way to critique Wesley's views from a Catholic perspective is to inquire as to the purpose of praying for the dead in the intermediate state. He accepts both things. First, here is what he writes about the intermediate state, or what he usually terms Paradise; alternately known as Sheol or Hades, or, sometimes, the limbo of the fathers:

Even in paradise, in the intermediate state between death and the resurrection, we shall learn more concerning these in an hour than we could in an age during our stay in the body. (Letter to Miss B; 17 April 1776)

In paradise the souls of good men rest from their labours, and are with Christ from death to the resurrection. This bears no resemblance at all to the Popish purgatory, wherein wicked men are supposed to be tormented in purging fire, till they are sufficiently purified to have a place in heaven. But we believe, (as did the ancient church,) that none suffer after death, but those who suffer eternally. We believe that we are to be here saved from sin, and enabled to love God with all our heart. (Letter to George Blackall; 25 Feb. 1783)

. . . Paradise: the place "where the wicked cease from troubling, and where the weary are at rest:" the receptacle of holy souls, from death to the resurrection. . . . paradise is not heaven. It is, indeed, (if we may be allowed the expression,) the anti-chamber of heaven, where the souls of the righteous remain, till, after the general Judgment, they are received into glory. (Sermon 112: The Rich Man and Lazarus; 25 March 1788)

. . . Hades, namely, the invisible world. . . . (which is the receptacle of separate spirits,) from death to the resurrection. Here we cannot doubt but the spirits of the righteous are inexpressibly happy. (Sermon 122: On Faith; 17 Jan. 1791)

Wesley firmly believes in praying for these souls:

It is certain "praying for the dead was common in the second century," . . . you might have said, and in the first also; seeing that petition, Thy kingdom come, manifestly concerns the saints in Paradise, as well as those on earth. . . . Praying thus far for the dead, 'That God would shortly accomplish the number of His elect, and hasten His Kingdom,' you will not easily prove to be any corruption at all. (A Letter to the Rev. Dr. Conyers Middleton Occasioned by His Late Free Inquiry; 4 Jan. 1749)

Your fourth argument is, That in a collection of Prayers, I cite the words of an ancient Liturgy—'for the Faithful Departed.' Sir, whenever I use those words in the Burial Service, I pray to the same effect: 'That we, with all those who are departed in Thy faith and fear, may have our perfect consummation of bliss, both in body and soul.' Yea, and whenever I say, 'Thy Kingdom come;' for I mean both the kingdom of grace and glory. In this kind of general prayer, therefore, for the Faithful Departed, I conceive myself to be clearly justified, both by the earliest Antiquity, by the Church of England, and by the Lord's Prayer. (Second Letter to Bishop George Lavington; 27 Nov. 1750)

But what is the purpose of such prayers? Catholics point out that those perfected in heaven are in need of neither help, nor prayer. Those in hell are beyond all redemption and help. All parties agree that judgment as to one's eternal destiny occurs at death Hence, it is meaningless to pray for either of those parties. It does make sense, though, to pray for those in transition from this world, to heaven. But what for? Well, we Catholics say it is an act of grace to lessen their time or amount of expiatory suffering in purgatory: God applying the grace-filled effects of prayer to the recipient (just as in all intercessory prayer). Otherwise, what is it for? Wesley expressly denies the Catholic sense of the prayer, but offers us no cogent alternative:

But it is far from certain, that "the purpose of this was, to procure relief and refreshment to the departed souls in some intermediate state of expiatory pains;" or, that this was the general "opinion of those times." (A Letter to the Rev. Dr. Conyers Middleton Occasioned by His Late Free Inquiry; 4 Jan. 1749)

Catholics submit, again, that the existence and process of purgatory after death is the most plausible background explanation of such prayers. Wesley does indeed at times admit some sort of process of continuing perfection after death (though not clearly defined):

But as happy as the souls in Paradise are, they are preparing for far greater happiness. For Paradise is only the porch of heaven; and it is there the spirits of just men are made perfect. (Sermon 73: Of Hell; 10 Oct. 1782; my italics)

. . . on the other hand, can we reasonably doubt, but that those who are now in Paradise, in Abraham's bosom, all those holy souls, who have been discharged from the body, from the beginning of the world unto this day, will be continually ripening for heaven; will be perpetually holier and happier, till they are received into the "kingdom prepared for them from the foundation' of the world?" (Sermon 122: On Faith; 17 Jan. 1791; my italics)

Exactly. Purgatory is the place / condition whereby (to use Wesley's own words) "the spirits of just men are made perfect" and where they are "continually ripening for heaven"  and "perpetually holier and happier" until, once and for all, they are fit to enter heaven and to see God face-to-face. If this occurs by "fire" (whether real or metaphorical), then Catholics argue, by analogy (like Wesley) from many instances of Scripture, that such refining and purification is precisely what helps to make us holy (metaphorically, "gold" or "pure") and thus able to be in God's presence forevermore. It all flows from God's great mercy. He would rather refine us after death than send us to hell because we refused to allow Him to do His work of grace and purification and sanctification (indeed, perfection) in us before death.

Wesley says God zaps us in an instant right before death. We say it takes a little longer after death. No essential difference; no biggie. It's the same result by different methods. Be that as it may, I maintain that purgatory is far more indicated in Holy Scripture than a "zap" right before death. See, e.g., 25 scriptural arguments, backed up by massive attestation from the Church fathers.


Wesley loved a good debate, was unfailingly amiable and quite skilled in that art, and (I think) uniformly bested his opponents. How I wish he were here to reply to this two-pronged argument! I think we would both enjoy the mutual challenges very much.

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